PERMABANS (though you did not know it!)

[Suzy1]

In all seriousness, let's be honest, white people using the "N" word are called racists. But no one uses the "N" word more than "African Americans" themselves!

[pimpdave]

Shut up Suzy. You're not helping.


And mpjh, sure, I promise not to call owen Mr. nshooter again. I now know he doesn't like it. But I can't promise not to accidentally piss off someone. It seriously is ridiculous to think that there was any racist meaning in what I wrote, and I'm honestly rather offended anyone would suggest that I would make racist comments or that there was anything racist in what I did write.

So in some ways, I feel like I deserve an apology myself, and that's part of why I'm reticent to make some big public one to owen.

[Woodruff]

i still think we need to define bigotry on CC because there are differences
saying
A.Sub is indian
isnt racist, but saying
A.Sub is a towel head
or
A.Sub is a Curry Bro.
is or can at least be taken that way
for example, i have a good friend of mine that is muslim, i joke around and say
"Shouldnt you be blowing up an airport or something?"
to which eh responds something to the effect of
"Go back to ur 7/11 fool"
and we laugh and walk away.
this means two things, one some racism is ok if its all in shits and giggles
OR
racism can only be laughed off as shits and giggles if you are good friends with the person in real life
the former means that we need a definition to allow us to define when something is harmfully racist or not, and the latter requires us to define to what extent something could be called racist

I think you make a good point here, and I would say the following...if nobody is offended by a statement, then it doesn't matter (in other words, if everyone took it as "shits and giggles among friends"). Now, that does NOT mean "if the person it was directed at isn't offended"...because if Owenshooter (just to use an example) is in a game with someone who uses a racial slur against someone else in the game, Owenshooter may still be offended by the statement. Who the statement is directed at is irrelevant. And of course, this blows up pretty large in the forums where (unlike in a game), it's not just a "very limited audience" who might see and be offended by the statement.

In other words, no action is taken unless a statement is reported. Does that make sense?

[Woodruff]

i got a warning for calling a moderator something mean in this thread.
anyways, back on subject, i still think a ban on the first offense could work, especially a short one, maybe 1 day?

Dunno, clapper once edited my posts because they were "racist" so I actually doubt whether the mods are smart enough to know what racism is.

The thing is, blatant racism will get called on anyway. People who spout such nonsense will get shouted at and ignored. This thread ignores the key in any online-forum environment which is that when people agree on a certain principle they will enforce their own guidelines. I'd really rather have the mods come in later or after enough complaints to deal with an issue, not jump the gun and make mistakes.

You're absolutely right about "when people agree on a certain principle, they will enforce their own guidelines". However, on a site as large as this one, that agreement is never going to happen.

[Suzy1]

I stated a fact. It wasn't directed at anyone. If this isn't open for discussion, take it private!

[pimpdave]

First, you can't kid owenshooter, and you know it. He rightfully has a sensitive skin on this issue. So feigning the "I was kidding" attitude doesn't hold water.

Also, you need to know, that when I say that I was kidding, I do not mean that I was kidding in any way about Owen's ethnic background. When I say I was kidding, I literally mean I was just splitting up the name in an odd spot, kidding, and never even thought about race. Granted, this is in a thread about bigotry, so it was the worst possible time to overlook something that might be grossly misinterpreted. At the time, I was just trying to defend Owen and his often entertaining and well written posts and wasn't thinking about the racism thing.

Whatever, seriously, just drop it, please. Let's move on. I won't use that mangling of owen's screenname again.

[owenator]

In all seriousness, let's be honest, white people using the "N" word are called racists. But no one uses the "N" word more than "African Americans" themselves!

And pray tell, where would you find this information to be actually true?

[owenator]

First, you can't kid owenshooter, and you know it. He rightfully has a sensitive skin on this issue. So feigning the "I was kidding" attitude doesn't hold water.

Also, you need to know, that when I say that I was kidding, I do not mean that I was kidding in any way about Owen's ethnic background. When I say I was kidding, I literally mean I was just splitting up the name in an odd spot, kidding, and never even thought about race. Granted, this is in a thread about bigotry, so it was the worst possible time to overlook something that might be grossly misinterpreted. At the time, I was just trying to defend Owen and his often entertaining and well written posts and wasn't thinking about the racism thing.

Whatever, seriously, just drop it, please. Let's move on. I won't use that mangling of owen's screenname again.

As much as pimpdave is absolutely weird for his posts of picture/clips with people vomiting, I think he deserves a break. He has apologized publicly and thus, on record to show a genuine sincerity for his mistake. Simply let it go.

As much as I'd like to get all pissed off about the topic in general, it's gotten over-dramatic now. Andy has provided an excellent position as to what are valid points and broke them down. I think it's time to move on, because this could easily be blown up again...and all it'll take is one comment. If you're going to post, remember to be sensitive because although this isn't 'real-life', there are obviously people of visible minority who love playing CC purely to get away from it all. This is supposed to be haven for the realities of it all. And certainly, there shouldn't be any bigotry of any form.

[Woodruff]

In all seriousness, let's be honest, white people using the "N" word are called racists. But no one uses the "N" word more than "African Americans" themselves!

Is that a statistic from a book somewhere? Where can we find this information, because I would be very curious to see your source.

[xelabale]

There are certain words that are always used to be derogatory. They are not ever used in polite conversation. Certainly N is one of them but there are similar words for gays (both male and female), Jewish, Chinese (sometimes applied to all orientals) and Vietnamese. I'm sure there are some that I'm leaving out but these words are used solely for the reason of denigration of another. They have no place in society. For me, use of these terms would warrant an immediate 24 hour ban-especially since I've seen 24 hour bans given for much much more innocuous issues. A second offense would be a longer and, from my perspective, the third strike would remove such a person from the site.

There are other words and phrases that come up that are also designed to be offensive and need to be looked at. Many people have attempted to derail the conversation by trying to show that a line cannot be well drawn but I would say that these need to be looked at with a standard that says "if a reasonable person would have found offense with these comments (assume a background for reasonable person that is in line with the complaining person) then they should go up the ladder" with the ladder in these cases being 1) warning, 2) 1 week ban 3) 1 month ban 4) permaban.

I agree with your point, I think it's pretty commonsense what words are unacceptable, whether they be in jest or not. I would be remiss however, not to point out that "orientals" is such a word. Just thought you would want to know.

This is the whole point. Do we ban the word oriental because someone might find it distasteful? (Oriental is not offensive, it simply means of the east - orientalism is the patronising and stereotypical way the orient was viewed in the 19th and early 20th century and therefore has bad connotations). So where does this commonsense end - what's your commonsense may not be mine, and may not be bananman's.
It is not an attempt to derail the thread to point out the difficulty of policing, simply an addition to the argument. It is not an acceptable policy to say : "if a reasonable person would have found offense with these comments (assume a background for reasonable person that is in line with the complaining person) then they should go up the ladder" for these reasons:

• Offensive may not be bigoted
• What is a reasonable person? It is way to ambiguous and open to abuse as a definition
• As has been pointed out by others, sometimes people (especially the Brits!) insult their friends - context is key here

It's part of a bigger issue:
If you go to the bar with your friends do you swear, when you wouldn't at home? If you visit a kindergarten do you swear when you would at home? We need to decide whether cc is the bar or the creche, the university library or the university fresher's week, a stag weekend or a kids birthday party - or somewhere inbetween.

Can it be both? I think not, as one group of people will always be upset. This is a major decision and should not be taken lightly, but it must be taken and everyone using the site must know. Right now everyone is confused and that's why there seems to be a lot of conflict.

[pimpdave]

He has apologized publicly and thus, on record to show a genuine sincerity for his mistake. Simply let it go.

Whoa, hang on. I'm not apologizing for anything. I didn't do anything wrong. I'm pissed at anyone who thinks I'm a racist.

[owenator]

He has apologized publicly and thus, on record to show a genuine sincerity for his mistake. Simply let it go.

Whoa, hang on. I'm not apologizing for anything. I didn't do anything wrong. I'm pissed at anyone who thinks I'm a racist.

This was in regard to saying "Nshooter" and that owenshooter took this to be a racial remark. You wrote:

So in some ways, I feel like I deserve an apology myself, and that's part of why I'm reticent to make some big public one to owen.

Sounds like an apology to me.

[Woodruff]

He has apologized publicly and thus, on record to show a genuine sincerity for his mistake. Simply let it go.

Whoa, hang on. I'm not apologizing for anything. I didn't do anything wrong. I'm pissed at anyone who thinks I'm a racist.

I thought that you apologized for makng the mistake of cutting up the word in such a way that it could be taken as racist. That doesn't mean you're racist in any way...you were simply apologizing for the mistake in what you did.

[pimpdave]

f*ck you I apologize for nothing. everyone else made this something from completely nothing.

And f*ck you owen for ever even thinking I'm a racist. Seriously, that's fucked up, man. I'm reading some of the posts in this thread and dude, you're losing your mind...

[Woodruff]

f*ck you I apologize for nothing. everyone else made this something from completely nothing.

And f*ck you owen for ever even thinking I'm a racist. Seriously, that's fucked up, man. I'm reading some of the posts in this thread and dude, you're losing your mind...

Excuse me? Is there really any reason for this reaction? Neither owenator nor I has said anything negative about you, in my opinion. In fact, if anything, we were complimenting you.

Seriously...you should try to cool down a bit before responding, because you're only making yourself look bad here.

So are you now going to try to claim that you were taken out of context here too?

[pimpdave]

jesus christ woodruff all you do is insert yourself in everything

[owenator]

f*ck you I apologize for nothing. everyone else made this something from completely nothing.

And f*ck you owen for ever even thinking I'm a racist. Seriously, that's fucked up, man. I'm reading some of the posts in this thread and dude, you're losing your mind...

Then, in that case - I definitely take back everything I said. Let it be known, that I never accused you of such. And to think I even thought you had some sort of decency. I'm not even going to sink to your level because you are so sensitive, and yet you claimed owenshooter was?!! I think you're baiting me to flame you. I'm glad this is an online gaming site, for your sake. I'll let the mods deal with you. And stick to the subject 'dude'.

[pimpdave]

I meant owenshooter, not owenator, dammit. owenshooter said I was a racist in a post in this thread.


oh just forget it. get drunk guys. and drop it.

[Woodruff]

jesus christ woodruff all you do is insert yourself in everything

If you don't like reading my posts, you are certainly free to stop doing so.

I would point out though, that the following certainly does sound like at least an admission that you should have done things differently (and isn't that really an apology?):

"That's what I was going for here. I honestly thought Owen was kidding at first, when he got upset, but I guess he was really serious. I'm still somewhat flabbergasted as to how anyone could take my breaking up of his screenname that way as racist, but in hindsight, I should have gone with Mr. hooter, as that was the other silly name I was considering."

Again, this doesn't imply guilt of "racism" in any way. Just guilt of breaking up the word in a way that turned out to be a bad thing, even though you didn't intend it that way.

[pimpdave]

jesus christ woodruff all you do is insert yourself in everything

If you don't like reading my posts, you are certainly free to stop doing so.

No your posts are fine. stop inserting yourself in the dialogue and getting offended because you inserted yourself, not because anyone was saying anything to you. fucksakes.


oh whatever. shut up everyone. get drunk and shut up.

[Woodruff]

jesus christ woodruff all you do is insert yourself in everything

If you don't like reading my posts, you are certainly free to stop doing so.

No your posts are fine. stop inserting yourself in the dialogue and getting offended because you inserted yourself, not because anyone was saying anything to you.

So your direct response to my post with "f*ck you I apologize for nothing. everyone else made this something from completely nothing." wasn't something I should be offended by?

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you about that.

EDIT: Oh, and I was in the process of editing my post above when you made your last post. I attempted to clarify what I meant by "apologize".

[Mr Changsha]

jesus christ woodruff all you do is insert yourself in everything

If you don't like reading my posts, you are certainly free to stop doing so.

oh whatever. shut up everyone. get drunk and shut up.

Some wisdom at last!

[JoshyBoy]

Calling someone black is not!

you never called anyone black, you used the N word, and like NS are sorely mistaken that you are able to use it as you will because the black culture uses it in a way that you will never understand or be able to use without a severe beat down in public. i am now going to hit the " ! " button on each and every post that has the N word in it. enough is enough. and this is just one small aspect of the bigotry on this site. do the mods/admins not get that it is highly offensive to wade through this thread since my last peek, and see the N word another 15 times?! in context out of context, it is a horrible word. i think that much is established. oh wait, i'm supposed to stop reading something i find offensive, put the user on ignore, and go about my daily biz... sigh... the times, they are a changin'...-0

p.s.-can we move on from the obvious racism angle and get down to how to hand out warnings/bans, and how/who will decide?

I'm sorry if I've upset you owen, but the point I am trying to make - which I'll admit I didn't really make clear - is that the "n" word (I won't use it from now on, forgive my insensitivity) was used for almost a couple of hundred years, for example in the first world war, in a non-derogatory way. It's only recently that Political Correctness has gone crazy, and it is only recently that people have started using it in a derogatory way.

I never use the word in real life and wouldn't really dream of using it because someone would take offense and I would end up on a hospital trolley, or worse, a morgue.

i just don't get how you (joshy) can say that "wog" is always offensive, yet the n-word is not...

well i think that it is unavoidable that there is now a somewhat grey area due to the relatively recent reclamation of the word by American black culture. It is now not always used as an oppressive or even taboo term, sometimes being used in friendly vernacular. But i still think it is at the very least very ill-advised to use it outside of of its place.

especially by young, non-black teens on a casual online gaming site...-0

The reason "wog" is offensive is because it was deliberately derived from the word "golliwog" as an offensive term for African/African Americans.

And once again I would like to apologise if I have upset or offended anyone. That was never my intention.

JB

[JoshyBoy]

f*ck you I apologize for nothing. everyone else made this something from completely nothing.

And f*ck you owen for ever even thinking I'm a racist. Seriously, that's fucked up, man. I'm reading some of the posts in this thread and dude, you're losing your mind...

Woah man! Colourful language!

You really have to watch what you say. Mods will get you for that kinda stuff.

[Woodruff]

I'm sorry if I've upset you owen, but the point I am trying to make - which I'll admit I didn't really make clear - is that the "n" word (I won't use it from now on, forgive my insensitivity) was used for almost a couple of hundred years, for example in the first world war, in a non-derogatory way. It's only recently that Political Correctness has gone crazy, and it is only recently that people have started using it in a derogatory way.

As early as the 1800s, the term was considered a derogatory one, so this really cannot in any way be blamed on political correctness, nor is it's derogatory usage only recent.