Inappropriate Avatar (Swastika)

[Guiscard]

I don't know whether this is the correct place but here goes...

I have an issue with CDman displaying an iron cross and swastika in his avatar. I've PM'd him to privately ask if he could change it but he's not been responsive. Is it really acceptable on a sight where we have a fair few young players to display Nazi symbols, especially as Risk (as a game) is based around war anyway??? If I'm wrong then feel free to ignore this completely, or to move this to the correct forum.

[Lone.prophet]

agreed

[Wisse]

can you give the link of his profile so we can see his ava?

[xMBKx]

Wisse, it's very easy to find. Try yourself.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/profil ... le&u=27563


This is forbidden. I think this person should change his Avatar.

[geegel]

Just as a matter of curiosity: Would you have reacted the same if instead of the swastika there would have been a communist symbol?

[xMBKx]

Yes, I reacted almost the same. See my post in other topic.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11570

[michaelthefinn]

well just wanted to imput one thing the swastika was an important symbol way before WWII it means order and peace, now if you where to have the svastika, which is the same thing only in opposite direction which means war and chaos but anyway just wanted to clear that up

[Guiscard]

I know, and it doesn't bother me particularly in that I am (hopefully) educated, know the history etc...

BUT it its more directed to younger people who could se it as glorifying Nazism (although I'm sure CDman doesn't intend it in this way) and people who WOULD be insulted by it (e.g. those who have relations who died in the war, holocaust etc.)

Also as regards a communist symbol, I actually wouldn't be so bothered as the hammer and sickle (I assume this is what you mean)doesn't have the same violent connotations in popular culture (whatever the reality of the situation as far as massacres, extreme ideology etc. is concerned).

In case anybody wondered he informed me that his avatar was because he respected the German military in WW2.

[Ruben Cassar]

Personally it doesn't bother me. It might bother some other people though...

[Vader_09]

i thnk it looks kool. i dont really care if he has it but do wat u will.

[Guiscard]

i thnk it looks kool. i dont really care if he has it but do wat u will.

May I ask in what way it is cool?

[lobsterclaw]

I think he has a right to his avtar, even if some dont like it.
and to awnser your queston, it's shade work, backrourt and cleare design make it look cool
P.s. I don't support the avtar, just think he has a right to it.


>>Claw

[Vader_09]

i said it "looks" kool. as in i thnk it looks awesome. as it i like the way it looks. i didnt say i liked wat it stands for, just the way it LOOKS*

[luckiekevin]

1. Why would there be a problem with a communist symbol? response to post above.

2. Nazi symbol... has to go.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

Myself being anathemic to Nazism, Racism, and Fascism, I am also against the censorship of ideals. Censoring it doesn't actually change anything, it does not undo what atrocities have been committed, and to assume that children will get wrong ideas from it is just foolish. You're assuming that all children are not only easily persuaded by an image, but stupid.

If you censor this because one person is offended by it, we'll have to censor everything that people are offended by matter of precedent. It's more work for the moderation and administration then is necessary, never mind that this whole idea of censorship is stupid.

If I may give an example, I am intellectually offended when someone makes a claim that would imply they know everything about me, or attempt to insult my intelligence by being intellectually dishonest. Case in point, when Scotty321 was proselytizing Christianity without any rational backing. Do I find this offensive? Yes. Does it actually hurt me in any way? No, so you won't find me going off to bitch and complain about him "offending" me.

On a final note, you're using vague and arbitrary means to define "offensive". "Offended" is a subjective concept that varies from person to person, and with that said I don't think there is an objective end to it. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

All in all, having a swastika as an avatar is certainly not an aspect of rationality or maturity in my book, it is certainly not hurting anyone, and should thus be left alone.

[geegel]

1. Why would there be a problem with a communist symbol? response to post above.

2. Nazi symbol... has to go.

With the risk of getting this thread moved to the mess hall, I will answer.

Communism is to be blamed for the deaths of a much larger number of people than Nazism, with an order of magnitude.

Some may argue that the reasons between the two records are radically different, but at a closer look show that they are not.

The Nazis are to blame for the Holocaust, which attempted the ethnic cleansing of the Jews in Europe (depending on the source a max of 6 mil people killed). The communism under Stalin among a gruesome record of crushing opposition (such as the gulag) also used the tactic of ethnic cleansing in Ukraine. This event is called the Holodomor, took place in between 1932-1933 and resulted in the death through stravation of approximately 10 million people. Now the famine was not caused by poor crops, but by the murderous policy employed. This is just a punctual example of what communism is capable of and there are plenty more others (Cambodia for example).

Now the fact that Nazism has a worse perceived image in the mainstream culture is not an excuse good enough. As a matter of fact it should result into a more dedicated effort to raise awareness on this issue.

If we are to avoid a double standard policy, we should either ban both type of symbols or allow them both.

Regards, George

[Guiscard]

and to assume that children will get wrong ideas from it is just foolish. You're assuming that all children are not only easily persuaded by an image, but stupid.

The rest of your post I agree with, and you typify my views for the post part, but unfortunately you've got me wrong on this point. I know that not all children are stupid and that not all will get the wrong idea. Indeed, I realise that an overwhelming majority of kids are sensible, rational and educated and would never dream of being influenced by something like this.

However, I can use a personal example for this. There are still a few children who get influenced by such things. Just for some context, I live in a town in the Midlands where there is a significant British National Party (the UKs extreme Right) presence. One of my friends when I was younger saw a guy with a swastika tatoo and, after we had chatted about it, decided he'd go find out about all this Nazi stuff. He thought it was 'cool', it was 'cool' that they were so efficient, he even said at one point that he admired them for their principles. His parents are pretty standard Conservatives, ones a local teacher, and I'm sure they'd have been horrified if they'd found out at the time. I may be wrong but I believe he is now a memeber of the BNP in the area where he works (he'd e in his 20s now). I know you can't generalise, and I'm sure it wasn't just this incident, but I really don't think we should do anything to promote this kinda stuff.

Having it in your avatar in a non-humorous context is basically saying you respect it. People have sports players, historical figures etc. etc. I really do not believe on a sight like this we should have avatars glorifying the Nazi war machine.

[Ruben Cassar]

Guiscard keep note that the BNP and Nazis are a totally different thing. The BNP are nowhere as extreme as the Nazis were. They are in a different league.

I really don't think we should make so much fuss about the avatar. Anyone should be free to use what he/she wants. Indeed I believe that we are attracting more attention to Nazism with our discussions here whereas the guy's avatar had little exposure.

[DDM]

I think it all boils down to what the law says.
In Italy, Nazism and Facism is outlawed.
Showing Nazism symbols is against the law in most (all ?) western europe countries too.
Comunism symbols are not, in the other hand ?

Why ?
Reading geegel's words, and considering them true (one could always doubt, you know), one would ask himself the same question.
I guess the answer can be found in history, and the definition of History.

a) In history, first of all, it was Stalin who got himself such tyrannic blood-thursty image. However, the communism is not Stalin. While Stalin was surely one leader who lived a long time in a period where communism showed its true power (in terms of global world power), communism was born before, and... never ended (it was the URSS that ended).
A very different situation than Hitler with Nazism. Nazism was born from Hitler, one of the most charismatic leaders of his time, and died with him.

b) on the same line, while I'm far from communism, i urge you, geegel, to read Marx's book about the communism. I didn't myself, but I have friends (who are not communists) who did. And they all concur: there's nothing morally or idealistically wrong in their ideology, far from it.
Most agree that in a perfect world, it would be a good politic (but humanity is far from perfect: it's human, and the world, even less).
Communism isn't promoting genocide, racism, or "race superiority". Nazism did.
Your analysis, then, geegel, has in this way some glarring errors.
If every genocide (or attempt at) ended in a "let's ban all the leader's political faction symbols", we would have no symbols left nowadays.

c) remember also that communism is not a tyranny. Staline made it so.
In this area, he was identical as Hitler, and thus, I can think, identical in its approach towards the world (and genocides).
still, there was no ideology behind Stalin's motives. Only personal beliefs and gains. In this, Nazism is way worse.

d) In the end, History, the definition.
History is made by the winners, not the losers.
In the light of it, it's logical that Stalin, his actions, and by consequence the communism, ended up "clean" for a long while, while Nazism was buried.
Not for that long, however... due to the cold war.
If it hadn't been for the Cold War, and for the history we've been fed up by our "western" politic, we would maybe have milder opinions of the communism.
Maybe we would know about the bad things of Staline, but not better than the "colaboration" of France with Nazism during the WWII occupation, or than the Church's (Vatican) one during the same period.


All in all, i don't know if in USA Nazism and its symbols are forbidden. If they are, maybe that should be the way to go here. Because, yes, children can be influenced by them (but not only because of it).
Communism symbols ? The same. Check your laws, then decide.

I personnally do not mind one way or the other.
Any person displaying such a symbol (Nazism), is imho a moron or someone with very few brain cells, but I couldn't care less.
The excuse of "wow, they were very organized, great military, and so on" doesn't hold water. Better than putting an "Empire" symbol (Star Wars symbol) and be done with it.

[Guiscard]

Guiscard keep note that the BNP and Nazis are a totally different thing. The BNP are nowhere as extreme as the Nazis were. They are in a different league.

I really don't think we should make so much fuss about the avatar. Anyone should be free to use what he/she wants. Indeed I believe that we are attracting more attention to Nazism with our discussions here whereas the guy's avatar had little exposure.

Right I think you missed my point. Of course I realise that the BNP is nowhere near as extreme as the Nazi party in Germany, but its a step towards that. I currently live in Leeds, and a few months ago some leafletters for an Anti-Racism campaign were quite viciously attacked and beaten by the BNP in an organised attack. My home town was the headquarters of the BNP in the Midlands (and nationally, I think) and in the 1960s business owners held a general meeting and decided not to employ any immigrant workers (often put down to pressure / sympthy for the National Front). Since then we've never really had a significant immigrant community (compared to other nearby towns and cities) and as such a large number of people hold pretty racist views. Although its totally wrong to censor people's beliefs I don't think this is the place to encourage such things at all.

[cdman]

i didnt know my avatar was an important isue! for GODS sakes is just an avatar. i didn't kill anybody. somebuddy must have much time on his hands to matter about these things

[luckiekevin]

DDM - Thank you.. that is exactly what I did not have the energy to write, yet, wanted to post

Dictatorships were responsible, not communism.

[Vader_09]

just drop it, gaush, it just an avitar. he probably didnt even know it would cause this much trouble, yall r just a bunch of winers if u ask me.

[Hit.ler]

i only read the first page of this, but i figured id voice my own opinion. lol. ur probably thinking i am in favor of the nazi party, but i am not. i chose the name Hit.ler, simply because it is a renound name and is associated with power. now about the swastika. There is nothing wrong with that. It only means something bad if u take it that way. The swastika had nothing to do with Hitler's mass murders in WWII. The German army was a great one, and one of the strongest on the planet, and Hitler was a very smart man, however in the end he went too far. sorry, that was a lot of random talking and i apologize, but i do not see why there is any reason he should have to chang ehis picture.

[AAFitz]

the important thing here is someone should check his games....he seems to have won quite a few of them with one of the same players in them....the repeating name on the feedback

i dont have time for this...but it deserves a quick check...if someone wants to fill out the form...i didnt play in the games...so i have no idea if they were unfair or not...

as far as the avatar, to most it represents the evil...but there are those who worship the devil too, and as far as im concerned, they are welcome to do so
i may not agree, but i doubt they agree with me either