Poison Rome [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

Ok, cairns. Onwards and upwards!

Thanks Gimil.

[cairnswk]

Current Version

Click image to enlarge.

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/_poison_rome.xml

[cairnswk]

Map have been officially split, and xml with centering will be posted shortly

[cairnswk]

Current Version

Small





Large

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/_poison_rome.xml

[whitestazn88]

here for the map review:

at first look, i'm not a big fan. it looks very cluttered, with lots of attack lines, and so many vials and figs that it might get confusing as to where you need to defend from if you're not paying attention.

but thats why cairns maps are so fun to play on. the bombardments and the long attack routes mean you actually have to think about strategy as you play the game.

i'm not a big fan of the auto deploy on the gods, because i feel like a player getting a first turn with gods would have an overbearing lead. maybe if one or 2 were made neutral, or if they were made to be starting points, i would like them better.

that being said, cairns turned an idea that i at first thought would be terrible into something interesting and playable. move it to the final forge

[cairnswk]

...

i'm not a big fan of the auto deploy on the gods, because i feel like a player getting a first turn with gods would have an overbearing lead. maybe if one or 2 were made neutral, or if they were made to be starting points, i would like them better.

that being said, cairns turned an idea that i at first thought would be terrible into something interesting and playable. move it to the final forge

hey whitestazn88. long time no see. Please check back a few pages to see who starts neutral.

[cairnswk]

Some small changes for the maps above:

1. There was no separation graphic wise between who the poison vials could one-way attack...this should now be clearer in the legend.
2. Some small xml things had to be fixed before stamping.

[barterer2002]

This will take me a while to learn. Looks fairly interesting.

Question though-maybe answered earlier but I'm not finding an answer on the legend
The Roman numberal I indicates a married couple, while it appears that an O indicates a mistress. What do the rest of the Roman Numberals (III, VIII, etc) stand for, are they the bonus for that particular family unit (that seems logical to me)

Also, are terts in more than one bonus structure at a time? For instance, looking at Atia Caesonia in the upper right. She appears to be the child of Julia Major and Marcus Balbus and has to be included in their family unit, however, if the roman I indicates only a 1 bonus then clearly Atia's husband Gaius Octavius and her children Octavia Minor and Livia Drusilla are not included in the bonus with Julia and Marcus.

Similarily looking at Octavia, it appears from where I am that Octavia Minor has a Plus 1 bonus with Claudius Marcellus, another Plus one bonus with Marcus Antonius and also a Plus 5 bonus with her parents Atia and Gaius Octavius along with her sister Livia.

Also the legend indicates that all within a family structure will border each other. Does this then mean that Livia Drusilla and Octavia Minor border each other as both being children of Gaius and Atia?

[cairnswk]

This will take me a while to learn. Looks fairly interesting.

Question though-maybe answered earlier but I'm not finding an answer on the legend
The Roman numberal I indicates a married couple, while it appears that an O indicates a mistress. What do the rest of the Roman Numberals (III, VIII, etc) stand for, are they the bonus for that particular family unit (that seems logical to me)

so if it is logical why are you asking the question. please read the legend.
The circle sitting atop the rectangle is the marriage symbol.
Overalyed is the bonus number for that family.
Mistresses do not show here. This is purely family.

Also, are terts in more than one bonus structure at a time? For instance, looking at Atia Caesonia in the upper right. She appears to be the child of Julia Major and Marcus Balbus and has to be included in their family unit, however, if the roman I indicates only a 1 bonus then clearly Atia's husband Gaius Octavius and her children Octavia Minor and Livia Drusilla are not included in the bonus with Julia and Marcus.

Yes she is in two bonuses - one for her parental family and one for her own family, but you wouldn't get those unless you held both famiiies.

Also the legend indicates that all within a family structure will border each other. Does this then mean that Livia Drusilla and Octavia Minor border each other as both being children of Gaius and Atia?

Octavia Minor and Marcus Antonius married and had Antonia.
Livia Drusilla had nothing to do with that family.
She had two marriages - first to Tiberius C Nero, second ot Augustus.
Augustus is the child of Atia Caesonia and Gaius Octavius.

[The Fuzzy Pengui]

This one doesn't really do it for me. I'm not sure why, but it just looks too cluttered/crammed together, and pretty complex. Plus the background just looks a little too plain (as well as the territories). I know uniformity is a good thing, but too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

That's my two cents worth, at least.

[cairnswk]

This one doesn't really do it for me. I'm not sure why, but it just looks too cluttered/crammed together, and pretty complex. Plus the background just looks a little too plain (as well as the territories). I know uniformity is a good thing, but too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

That's my two cents worth, at least.

thanks Fuzzy for the two cents.
with regard to the background, as the map is cluttered, imagine what it would look like if it didn't have a plain background.
Sometimes less is more.

[The Fuzzy Pengui]

thanks Fuzzy for the two cents.
with regard to the background, as the map is cluttered, imagine what it would look like if it didn't have a plain background.
Sometimes less is more.

Definitely, less can be more sometimes. But what about maybe changing the shade of grey for some of the territories in some places. Make some darker, lighter, more brown, etc. That would keep the plain background (which is definitely needed), but would also break it up a little and add some "flavor" to it?

[tlane]

This is my first time posting about this map but i have been watching it a little and I really like it!
Now I am getting a bit confused about the one way bombardments, on the first page the large version has two different color sets of poison vials and on the page here there is only one set of colors. Just wondering which way it is going to be, i like it with only one color set.
This may not be able to change, but I was wondering if you could make the text under "The Julio-Claudian Family" a little bigger on the small version, it may not be possible but it is hard for me to see.
Also is it possible to move the text "Marcia (ex Regii)" over 1 or 2 pixels so it is not touching the side.

sorry to nitpick so much, but those are the only possible changes i see that will improve this map.
great job
tlane

[cairnswk]

thanks Fuzzy for the two cents.
with regard to the background, as the map is cluttered, imagine what it would look like if it didn't have a plain background.
Sometimes less is more.

Definitely, less can be more sometimes. But what about maybe changing the shade of grey for some of the territories in some places. Make some darker, lighter, more brown, etc. That would keep the plain background (which is definitely needed), but would also break it up a little and add some "flavor" to it?

no. i'm happy with it as it is, and now that the map is split, i'm not going to change it all for late comers like yourself who couldn't be bothered/haven't taken the time to give comment. Sorry Fuzzy, but this map has been up for quite some time and it's up to you to have your say when the map is in development. As far as i am concerned, this one finished.

[barterer2002]

Cairns, I think that Fuzzy probably got the same email that I did asking us to come comment on this map (as well as the Castle one). It was my understanding that one of the reasons was to give a fresh eye from someone who hasn't been involved in the map. I may be wrong on that reasoning but that was my understanding.

The bonus structure I'm not as sure on. When you say

Yes she is in two bonuses - one for her parental family and one for her own family, but you wouldn't get those unless you held both famiiies.

It confuses me. Aren't all the families interrelated? How do you get a single bonus. I would have assumed from the legend that Julia, Marcus and Atlia would have given a bonus of +1. However, according to what you've posted I can't get that unless we also hold Gaius Octavius, Octavia Minor and Augustus for also a +5. Where does it stop? Because by the same logic then shouldn't Octavia be under the same constraints to have both both her husbands before that bonus kicks in. I'm feeling totally confused by that comment above.

[oaktown]

at first look, i'm not a big fan. it looks very cluttered, with lots of attack lines, and so many vials and figs that it might get confusing as to where you need to defend from if you're not paying attention.

but thats why cairns maps are so fun to play on. the bombardments and the long attack routes mean you actually have to think about strategy as you play the game.

I think this is well said. I know what kind of maps I like, and what kind I don't like, and I don't like to have to think so much when I'm playing a new map. The disconnected boxes and attack paths style isn't my cup of tea, but that doesn't mean it won't get my support.

My concern with the present state of this map is that it doesn't seem to exhibit the polish we generally insist on around here. The borders and effects on elements seem inconsistent - for example, the marriage symbol at Scribonia, Julia, and Marcellus all look different, but not enough so for it to seem intentional. On at least the small map there seems to be a chunk missing from the Caesonia marriage symbol. And i assume that the roman numerals indicate the bonus size? Might be worth noting that in the legend.

Another example of a graphics element that needs some polish is the way the attack routes hit the boxes, eg Sextus Julius Caesar is a flat line, while the bar next to it blurs softly into Julia Caesaris. Your usual attention to detail doesn't come through here, cairnswk.

The background shouldn't be busy, as cairnswk noted... but right now it looks like a psychadelic print rather than the marble I think it is supposed to represent. More Acid Rome, less Poison Rome.

Personally i wish the poison figs symbols attack and target were more distinct from each other - staring at the small map I can already see that I'm going to screw that up.

[The Fuzzy Pengui]

Ok, I can see your point saying that I’m a “newcomer” for your map; however I think you may have the wrong attitude. The new Final Public Review was created so the map receives more critique before Final Forge. I recently received a PM about 3 maps (the other 2 I have yet to comment because I need to look them over some more), so I came in to give my opinion. Now I completely agree that if there’s only one person saying they don’t like something it probably doesn’t need changed. However, when you say

As far as i am concerned, this one finished.

that’s just telling everybody to take it as it is because you don’t feel like changing it at all. Like is said before; just because I want it changed doesn’t mean it should be, but if enough people say something then it definitely should. Just because you think it’s quench material doesn’t mean the community feels that way.

[oaktown]

Just because you think it’s quench material doesn’t mean the community feels that way.

this could be said about any map, at any stage of the process - Drafts to BETA. In my opinion there are still a few things that need to be addressed to make it quenchable - let's give the community a chance to say if I'm completely nuts.

[Incandenza]

You're not nuts, tho I looked pretty closely and couldn't figure out what the problem is with the Caesonia marriage symbol... However, one small graphic thing I did see that I hadn't seen before is the fact that the Cleopatra-Marcus Antonius connection is uneven, the purple bleeds much farther down the right side than the left, and being a bit OCD about uch things, now that I've seen it it kinda bugs me (sorry, cairns, I know how much you hate doing graphic changes after you've split the maps... I guess that's the cost of doing business when you do a map that's only got a couple of pairs of eyes on it 'cause it's only of interest to me and yeti... )

As far as the roman numerals and indicating them somehow in the legend, I strongly disagree. That seems like a bit too much hand-holding on a subject that most people learn in grade school. Certainly if someone can argue that roman numerals are extraordinarily less well known in other parts of the world, that's one thing, but this isn't a map where you can just glance at the legend and you're good to go. I know that's normally your preference for maps, oak, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I think there's definitely room for complex maps, maps where if you're not paying very close attention on your first go-around, you'll make a mistake.

[oaktown]

I think I wasn't clear - the use of Roman Numerals is entirely appropriate this map. I'm just not sure folks will know why they are there - at first I thought they were purely decorative.

[Incandenza]

I think I wasn't clear - the use of Roman Numerals is entirely appropriate this map. I'm just not sure folks will know why they are there - at first I thought they were purely decorative.

No, you were pretty clear, and the bolded part above illustrates my point perfectly. At a glance the numbers looked decorative, but you looked at them for a moment and sussed it out. This isn't a badly-drawn border where it's debatable what touches what. The roman numerals are something that pretty much anyone that actually looked at the map and decided to play a game on it would be able to figure out in pretty short order.

[cairnswk]

Cairns, I think that Fuzzy probably got the same email that I did asking us to come comment on this map (as well as the Castle one). It was my understanding that one of the reasons was to give a fresh eye from someone who hasn't been involved in the map. I may be wrong on that reasoning but that was my understanding....

Unfortunately i did not get the same email warning me of this, and also I think that email should have gone out before i split the maps.
As someone state above, most people know that i don't like doing adjustments after the maps are split unless it's glaringly erroneous. Someone should get on board with the mapmakers and give us some consideration also.
Seems sometime we're the forgotten ones even though we do all the work basically.
Once again I am pissed off.

[cairnswk]

...for example, the marriage symbol at Scribonia, Julia, and Marcellus all look different, but not enough so for it to seem intentional.

My goodness, what map are you looking at. they all seem fine to me.

On at least the small map there seems to be a chunk missing from the Caesonia marriage symbol.

Yes i'll give you that fix.

And i assume that the roman numerals indicate the bonus size? Might be worth noting that in the legend.

Sorry oaktown but it already states that in the legend. please look under family unit bonus.

Another example of a graphics element that needs some polish is the way the attack routes hit the boxes, eg Sextus Julius Caesar is a flat line, while the bar next to it blurs softly into Julia Caesaris. Your usual attention to detail doesn't come through here, cairnswk.

Yes there was a huge discussion about the connection lines and everyone who was involved with that was happy with the result produced. Basically the entire pathways is a gradient from top to bottom. So some section with appear lighter than others. You were not invovled in those discussion because you failed to attend the map.

The background shouldn't be busy, as cairnswk noted... but right now it looks like a psychadelic print rather than the marble I think it is supposed to represent. More Acid Rome, less Poison Rome.

Mmmm. very subjective observance.

Personally i wish the poison figs symbols attack and target were more distinct from each other - staring at the small map I can already see that I'm going to screw that up.

I think they're quite distinct enough, and if you examine they are different symbols. So you screwing it up might just be erroneous on yo-ur part for not paying attention enough. I did not take into consideration your eyes on this as you didn't bother to comment, and like stated above everyone who has commented up to this point was happy with that.

[cairnswk]

Ok, I can see your point saying that I’m a “newcomer” for your map; however I think you may have the wrong attitude. The new Final Public Review was created so the map receives more critique before Final Forge. I recently received a PM about 3 maps (the other 2 I have yet to comment because I need to look them over some more), so I came in to give my opinion. Now I completely agree that if there’s only one person saying they don’t like something it probably doesn’t need changed. However, when you say

As far as i am concerned, this one finished.

that’s just telling everybody to take it as it is because you don’t feel like changing it at all. Like is said before; just because I want it changed doesn’t mean it should be, but if enough people say something then it definitely should. Just because you think it’s quench material doesn’t mean the community feels that way.

Yes, i don't feel like making big changes simply because the foundry process doesn't give consideration to the mapmaker, and work with them.
This map has been in the foundry since Oct last year and was moved to Main Foundry circa 27 Dec. I think there has been plenty of time for everyone to get in here and have some say.
If nobody wants to comment on it (except only a handful of people) then don't expect me to greet you with Roses and perfume when at the 12th hour you "pop-in" on the Foundry Process request. If i have attitude, then it probably comes from the fact that as I stated above, mapmakers are not given enough courtesy.

[cairnswk]

(sorry, cairns, I know how much you hate doing graphic changes after you've split the maps...

at least your on the mark Inca.

.... However, one small graphic thing I did see that I hadn't seen before is the fact that the Cleopatra-Marcus Antonius connection is uneven, the purple bleeds much farther down the right side than the left, and being a bit OCD about uch things, now that I've seen it it kinda bugs me (sorry, cairns, I know how much you hate doing graphic changes after you've split the maps... I guess that's the cost of doing business when you do a map that's only got a couple of pairs of eyes on it 'cause it's only of interest to me and yeti... )

I have checked this aspect and both filters on each end of the connection to Marus Antonius is the same. I will change it to pure white to see if that satasfies the OCD in you.

As far as the roman numerals and indicating them somehow in the legend, I strongly disagree. That seems like a bit too much hand-holding on a subject that most people learn in grade school. Certainly if someone can argue that roman numerals are extraordinarily less well known in other parts of the world, that's one thing, but this isn't a map where you can just glance at the legend and you're good to go. I know that's normally your preference for maps, oak, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I think there's definitely room for complex maps, maps where if you're not paying very close attention on your first go-around, you'll make a mistake.

Well said. And i have repeatedly stated this to many players over the last two years...watch what you're doing. I also think the Roman Numerals for the bonuses are entirely appropriate.
oaktown, you of all people should know by now that most of my maps are not in your good-go-genre. they require some thinking about.