Forced to be atheists (and still refusing)

[Napoleon Ier]

So, your position on the matter is unfalsifiable and hence invalid. Ergo, you lose.

Something unproveable might well be true ... ergo you used false logic .. ergo an instant "you lose".

Or, google "falsifiability" and realize you just sounded off on a topic you know nothing about. Again.

Falsifiability has nothing to do with opinions. Even if it did, saying that someone can't convince you just by arguing with you does not make your stance unfalsifiable. So, you know, there was a bit of irony in this one.

I never said it did, mon ami, but if you;re going to go down that road, then I can easily say that yes, it really does. If your opinion is unfalsifiable, I can say it has no basis in rationality. Ergo, you lose. QED.

[CrazyAnglican]

Is anyone disturbed by the fact that, according to the bible, non-christians get the same punishment as those who refuse Juche, and none of the Christians expressing outrage in this thread care about that?

Could you cite a passage for anyone being immolated in molten iron? I missed that one the first time through.

[Simon Viavant]

If you ask me, being immersed in molten iron or molten lava is a little too small of a difference to pick knits about. And in both cases you don't have to commit any evil deeds, you just have to not worship somebody.

[CrazyAnglican]

Yet there is nothing in the Holy Bible that states that any Christian should immerse anyone in lava for not being a Christian. It's not picking nits, that's just not there.

[Simon Viavant]

It's not people who are doing it, but both refusers of Juche and refusers of Christianity end up getting toosed in som 10,000 degree substance.

[Frigidus]

Yet there is nothing in the Holy Bible that states that any Christian should immerse anyone in lava for not being a Christian. It's not picking nits, that's just not there.

Then what's with all the references to fire and brimstone? Or does hell not count?

[CrazyAnglican]

Ah, but there is a big problem with your reasoning:

1) The Juche are physically torturing people right now for holding onto their own beliefs.

Christians on the other hand have had a pretty good track record over the past couple of hundred years with regard to that type of behavior.

2) As far as Hell goes we have two probable conclusions:

A) There is no God and therefore nobody gets thrown there so no need for outrage.

or

B) There is a God and he is a divine judge capable of making the absolute correct judgement. Therefore the people who go there do so through embracing evil and temptation. Not merely by holding on to a set of values as the Holy Bible clearly states that a few non-Christians have gone to Heaven. The verse you're referencing does not specifically call everyone to be Christians even though it is frequently read that way.

Yet again it's not the Christians doing the tossing in this instance but an accounting for one's own actions in life.

[Simon Viavant]

It is specifically written several places in the bible that you don't have to commit evil to go to hell, you just have to not accept christ.

[CrazyAnglican]

It is specifically written several places in the bible that you don't have to commit evil to go to hell, you just have to not accept christ.

Really? Cite one, please. While we're at it, are you suggesting that the Christian belief in Hell really makes it okay to immolate them in Iron?

[Simon Viavant]

"The only way to the Father is through me"

There's one for you.

[CrazyAnglican]

Right and what exactly does that one mean? It can just as well mean that everyone who works for good in this life is doing so through Christ's intervention whether they are aware of it or not. It's certainly not Christ's condemnation of everyone who had never heard of him at the time.

For instance Christ doesn't condemn Moses or Elijah to Hell as he sits with them at the transfiguration, and neither of them were Christian.


In North Korea, however, people are most definitely being starved, beaten and executed by other people for their refusal to adhere to anything other than Juche. There certainly is a big difference there.

[Simon Viavant]

Well geez it's in the Ten Commandments:

Thou shalt honor God

Thou shalt put no Gods before you but the true God.....

And then proceeds to go on for pages and pages about what happens to people who breaks the ten commandments.

And no, you can't just dismiss it as the ravings of the old testament.

[2dimes]

ravings of the old testament.

Of course the Torah isn't ravings. The reason we sometimes dismiss it as such is because the food laws have been changed to good ideas based on what level of refrigeration you have and the rest of it is an impossible standard for us humans to live up to.

On paper it's perfect but because I'm human I can't follow the rules completely, I'm not capable of being that good.

When a group tries to live up to that standard we tend to switch to trying to manage others and "help" them follow the rules by pointing out everytime they break one. ie. "Crazy Anglican took my sandwich, he's a sinner!" While you do that you end up breaking some yourself.

Once I break a rule I try to justify it by convincing myself there was a valid reason. ie." it's not just that I'm wrapped up in sex and my wife is woman so she's not consumed by it, so after some gin I decided to hump the neighbor because he's in good shape. I was born gay,"

That's why you can't have giant churches, they turn into a vehicle for blame festivals. Everyone's time is spent trying to help each other "follow the rules" while making up valid excuses when I don't myself.

Through Christ you have the option to admit you made an error and move on because he atoned for it. It's not that you shouldn't make every effort to follow the rules it's just that in the end Jesus invites you to let him pay the penalty so the burden is shifted from that of guilt leading to distruction to, acknowledgemet you couldn't obey that law at the time lets try again. Therefore the Old testament becomes a picture of perfection instead of an impossible burden that can get you killed if you're not good enough at talking your way out of a mob armed with rocks.

[PLAYER57832]

ravings of the old testament.

Of course the Torah isn't ravings. The reason we sometimes dismiss it as such is because the food laws have been changed to good ideas based on what level of refrigeration you have and the rest of it is an impossible standard for us humans to live up to.

Christ and his words might have something to do with this as well .

Part of Christ's message (to paraphrase) was that while these rules were "nice guides to live by", getting too caught up in the details of the law causes us to ignore the real intent (that we leave well and peacably within our community in honor of God). Also, they are not the route to salvation... and salvation is foremost.

Interestingly, Mohammed decided this was the wrong direction and that people need even MORE rules, not fewer. (he even wrote a book about it!)

[2dimes]

Really? Let me paraphrase this christ guy now. "I didn't come to destroy the law but to fullfill it."

I know what you mean though, I get all caught up in thinking the things Paul taught to us regarding living for the glory of God through the power of the Christ was stuff Yeshua said.

[CrazyAnglican]

Well geez it's in the Ten Commandments:

Thou shalt honor God

Thou shalt put no Gods before you but the true God.....

And then proceeds to go on for pages and pages about what happens to people who breaks the ten commandments.

And no, you can't just dismiss it as the ravings of the old testament.

Sure and in the Ten commandments it also says "Thou shalt not murder". The whole point being that Christians seem to be getting better about obeying that one (from the organizational church perspective) while secular governments with an atheistc bent seem to have a disctinctly worse track record over the past century. The 20th being the first one with distinctly atheistic governments as far as I know. Anyway, you can keep on with the idea that it's inherent in Christian scripture to be violent (it isn't). The scripture that you've quoted, though doesn't really support the notion. There still is a really big difference between imolating someone in molten iron in an attempt to get them to recant their beliefs and the idea that as punishment for their misdeeds they might meet with an afterlife that at once is described as burning away and other times weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and still others as the outer darkness.

"No one knows the Father but through the Son, and no one knows the Son but through the Father." Utterly fails to be an actual indictment of non-Christians, as I noted earlier.


"I am the God who brought you out of Egypt.... thou shalt have no other gods before me"
Isn't an indictment of non-Christians at all given that there were no Christians until three or so thousand years after it was given.