The Balkan Peninsula [FF] --Feb 2nd 2010--

[ZeakCytho]

Here's what I suggest
Slovenia . . . . . . Romania
Croatia . . . . . . Bulgaria
Bosnia . . . . . . . Macedonia
Mont. . . . . . . . . Albania
Serbia . . . . . . . Greece

.44

Hmm...that's better than my suggestion, but not great. How about:
Slovenia....Romania
Croatia....Bulgaria
Bosnia....Serbia
Montenegro...Macedonia
Albania...Grrece

Nice map Zeak. not sure i like the transparency of the mini-map with Italy underneath, but well done.

Thanks! The transparency will probably go in later versions, I'm just testing out the legend/minimap layout now. Once everyone's happy with that, I'll work on a good background for it.

[edbeard]

you might be better off exaggerating the colours slightly on the mini-map. some haven't transferred over well at all.


impassable borders...look at the real Balkan Peninsula and take a look where some real impassable borders occur. rivers. mountains. etc. see if those help you out

[the.killing.44]

I'd stick with mine, not out of stuck-upness, but just because you go from Albania to Romania then Serbia, which makes the eyes dart around everywhere. Oh, and for a big-ass, official, NASA image of the Balkans, here's a 5600x4400px image:
EDIT: on second thought, it's too big. Here's a link: http://veimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/5713/Balkans.A2003225.0945.250m.jpg

.44

[ZeakCytho]

Version 5:

Click image to enlarge.

I added some mountain impassbles. I didn't put much thought into how they'd affect gameplay. Honestly, there are so many mountain ranges that I can almost put mountains anywhere to make gameplay better.

I didn't move around the minimap order yet, but I did move the Kosovo box over to the right.

Other people have thoughts on whether or not I should keep Crete in? Add European Turkey? Split existing countries? I need the most input on this area right now.

[snufkin]

Other people have thoughts on whether or not I should keep Crete in? Add European Turkey? Split existing countries? I need the most input on this area right now.

since the title reads balkan peninsula I´d suggest dropping crete and adding european turkey.
It seems the Turks call their combined european provinces "Trakya" - I think that´s enough distinguished from greek thrace, although both of course are inspired by the same ancient land.

[zeros]

Your update is a great improvement and I now understand the thing about Italy. But if Italy is not part of the game, does it need to be there at all? Why not simply remove it?

You ask about Crete being left in or not. I think it should stay because of it's strategical importance as borne out by historical events. Crete has been a very hotly disputed place due to its geographical location. Definitely keep it!

Some people seem to dislike your new version of the mini-map but I think it is much better than most of the established maps! Well done.

[zeros]

Reconsidering the Crete issue:

Of course Crete's geographical importance is more valid if European Turkey is included.

[Qwert]

I will study map,and then i will give you mine sugestion abouth territories,impasabiles and bonuses.

[zeros]

Qwert looks like a great friend to have for these things!

[ZeakCytho]

Other people have thoughts on whether or not I should keep Crete in? Add European Turkey? Split existing countries? I need the most input on this area right now.

since the title reads balkan peninsula I´d suggest dropping crete and adding european turkey.
It seems the Turks call their combined european provinces "Trakya" - I think that´s enough distinguished from greek thrace, although both of course are inspired by the same ancient land.

I'd like to get at least two territories in Turkey if I add it - a one territory continent would not be good - what if I made territories Trakya and Istanbul?

Your update is a great improvement and I now understand the thing about Italy. But if Italy is not part of the game, does it need to be there at all? Why not simply remove it?

Because there's no way to crop the map to include Slovenia, Croatia, etc. and leave out Italy. It's just unplayalbe land - same as everything north of the Peninsula (Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Ukraine, etc.)

You ask about Crete being left in or not. I think it should stay because of it's strategical importance as borne out by historical events. Crete has been a very hotly disputed place due to its geographical location. Definitely keep it!

That's true, but on the other hand, Crete is not part of the Peninsula.

Some people seem to dislike your new version of the mini-map but I think it is much better than most of the established maps! Well done.

Thank you

Reconsidering the Crete issue:

Of course Crete's geographical importance is more valid if European Turkey is included.

I'm not sure how true that is - Crete is included right now because it's a part of Greece. Going by adding whole countries, it makes sense to not include Turkey, because the whole of Turkey doesn't fit. If instead I went by parts of countries lying on the Peninsula, Crete gets cut and European Turkey (but not Asian Turkey) gets added.

I will study map,and then i will give you mine sugestion abouth territories,impasabiles and bonuses.

Thank you very much, qwert

Keep the comments rolling, guys. Also, if I do add European Turkey, what color should it be? I'm thinking something between the teal of Bulgaria and the blue of Greece.

Does anyone agree with Mjinga's comments that Albania is too bright and that the borders are too similar to the unplayable color?

Edit: I did a quick version 5.1 with Turkey added. Thoughts?

Click image to enlarge.

[Qwert]

First question
1.Its these a small or large version?
2.Slovenia-You whas right about name of provinces,because i never check how its spell in other language-Mine sugestion is to create two provinces-XCarniola and Styria+ 1 capital Ljubljana,who are conected from bouth Provinces.
3.Croatia-add Capital in Central Croatia-Zagreb,who is only connected with Central Croatia
4.Bosnia And Hercegovina-i will sugested changing name Saraevo to be Federation of Bosnia and Hercegovina(FBIH),and to add Capital Sarajevo to be conected with bouth entity.
5.Montenegro-it will be good,that you manage to create similare to slovenia that montenegro have 2 territory and + Capital in middle.
6.Macedona-Split in two provinces,and put Skoplje to be betwen these two provinces like in Slovenia.
7.Grecce-looks good,i just add capital Atthens
8.Albania-i will create similar to Slovenia-two provinces and capital to be betwen.
9.Romania-Bucurest need to be capital,betwen dobrudja and Mutenia.
10.Bulgaria-Sofian need to be Capital betwen Plovdiv and Kyustendil(i think that will be good to add two more provinces Kyustendil and Montana who will replace Sofia provinces)
11.Also i think that you need to add Turkie,only balkan part.
12.Serbia-Belgrade ofcourse capital-Vojvodina and KOsovo ok,and new provinces(look on map)
-----------------------------
Impasabile borders-you have several rivers who create very nice borders.Danube-Sava-Drina(look on map)you can use that.

Bonuses
I will add new bonuses-hold Some number of capital get bonuse ?
Also i will create some Combination of bonuses-example-hold SLovenia and Croatia Bonus 4
Hold BIH and Serbia bonus 5
Hold Montenegro,Albania,Macedonia bonus 5
------------------------------------
Present bonuses is to much easy to hold expecialy Montenegro and Slovenia,and without impasabile all biger bonuses its dificulty to get.

Impasabile in some coutries only make harder to take these countries.

Capitals can be similar to Wales map,where you have 2 or more territory in on territory.
I think that yours bonuses area its to much big and cover to much space.These space can be need for some Insets if you need.

these is mine initial opservations,something what i will adapt in these map.

I'd like to get at least two territories in Turkey if I add it - a one territory continent would not be good - what if I made territories Trakya and Istanbul?

I think that you have enough space for 3 turkey territory-2 territory who will have borders with Grecce and Bulgaria,and one who will border with these two,and can be capital for these part of turkey and you can call these province European Istanbul(because Istanbul is town in two continents).

Click image to enlarge.

[ZeakCytho]

First question
1.Its these a small or large version?
2.Slovenia-You whas right about name of provinces,because i never check how its spell in other language-Mine sugestion is to create two provinces-XCarniola and Styria+ 1 capital Ljubljana,who are conected from bouth Provinces.
3.Croatia-add Capital in Central Croatia-Zagreb,who is only connected with Central Croatia
4.Bosnia And Hercegovina-i will sugested changing name Saraevo to be Federation of Bosnia and Hercegovina(FBIH),and to add Capital Sarajevo to be conected with bouth entity.
5.Montenegro-it will be good,that you manage to create similare to slovenia that montenegro have 2 territory and + Capital in middle.
6.Macedona-Split in two provinces,and put Skoplje to be betwen these two provinces like in Slovenia.
7.Grecce-looks good,i just add capital Atthens
8.Albania-i will create similar to Slovenia-two provinces and capital to be betwen.
9.Romania-Bucurest need to be capital,betwen dobrudja and Mutenia.
10.Bulgaria-Sofian need to be Capital betwen Plovdiv and Kyustendil(i think that will be good to add two more provinces Kyustendil and Montana who will replace Sofia provinces)
11.Also i think that you need to add Turkie,only balkan part.
12.Serbia-Belgrade ofcourse capital-Vojvodina and KOsovo ok,and new provinces(look on map)
-----------------------------
Impasabile borders-you have several rivers who create very nice borders.Danube-Sava-Drina(look on map)you can use that.

Bonuses
I will add new bonuses-hold Some number of capital get bonuse ?
Also i will create some Combination of bonuses-example-hold SLovenia and Croatia Bonus 4
Hold BIH and Serbia bonus 5
Hold Montenegro,Albania,Macedonia bonus 5
------------------------------------
Present bonuses is to much easy to hold expecialy Montenegro and Slovenia,and without impasabile all biger bonuses its dificulty to get.

Impasabile in some coutries only make harder to take these countries.

Capitals can be similar to Wales map,where you have 2 or more territory in on territory.
I think that yours bonuses area its to much big and cover to much space.These space can be need for some Insets if you need.

these is mine initial opservations,something what i will adapt in these map.

I'd like to get at least two territories in Turkey if I add it - a one territory continent would not be good - what if I made territories Trakya and Istanbul?

I think that you have enough space for 3 turkey territory-2 territory who will have borders with Grecce and Bulgaria,and one who will border with these two,and can be capital for these part of turkey and you can call these province European Istanbul(because Istanbul is town in two continents).

This is the large that I'm working on now. I like your capital suggestion, but I'm not sure if things will start to look too cramped once all the capitals are on. An explanation of how they work in the legend is a very good idea.

I'll definitely look into using rivers as impassables, especially between Romania and Bulgaria.

Bonuses for holding various numbers of capitals will be good, if we add capitals to the map - something like Italy's capital system.

I'll split Serbia and Bulgaria the way you did on your sample map for the next version.

Thought: I might shrink the font a few sizes and make it darker. I think that would give me a bit more room to play around with? I'll try it for the next version.

[Qwert]

Try to start with small map-630x600,because these will give you better picture how will look best.
I think that you need to change something in Bonuses area-maybe to put 4-4-4(to be more horisonta,and in that way you will get more space for additional bonuses)

[ZeakCytho]

Here's version 6.

Click image to enlarge.

Changes from last version:
Added more mountains, and the Danube
Reoraganized the legend area
Added European Turkey
Changed a number of territory borders (thanks qwert!)
Recalculated bonuses based on current impassables
Changed font size to make things fit better

I decided not to go with capitals (for now) because it really looks too cramped.

Thoughts on current impassable placement? Look of the mountains, river, bridges, etc.?
Since no one but Mjinga has said anything, I'm assuming people are fine with the color of Albania and the darkness of the unplayable land.

We're now at 50 territories with Kosovo, which starts neutral, meaning we're at 49 starting territories. If we eliminate Crete, that brings us to 48, which is a very nice number. I therefore propose we get rid of Crete. Any objections?

[gho]

i posted before, but maybe my post got lost. From a gameplay angle i think you need to split republic of srpska, as currently you can hold slovenia, bih and croatia and only have to defend 2 borders. Graphically i dont like all those small islands that you have around the place. Either increase the width so it is the same as the continent border, or make them grey. Also is it possible to include the whole of european turkey or is that not possible/

[snufkin]

We're now at 50 territories with Kosovo, which starts neutral, meaning we're at 49 starting territories. If we eliminate Crete, that brings us to 48, which is a very nice number. I therefore propose we get rid of Crete.

It will also make it easier for you to follow the height restrictions and thereby allowing you a larger map (since your map is narrow and height is more restricted than width)

From a gameplay angle i think you need to split republic of srpska, as currently you can hold slovenia, bih and croatia and only have to defend 2 borders.

or perhaps even a water connection to dalmatia from albania?

Graphically i dont like all those small islands that you have around the place. Either increase the width so it is the same as the continent border, or make them grey.

I must agree that there are some problems with the greek archipelago/islands.. especially the "islands" of chalkidiki/central greek macedonia - those are actually peninsulas.

Euboea the island to the east is a part of "central greece" and much closer to the mainland than in your map - should be redrawn imo, it´s roughly as close to the mainland as peloponnese (that used to be a peninsula before the channel was built)

Also is it possible to include the whole of european turkey or is that not possible/

are you talking about a few lines of pixels in Istanbul?

[Qwert]

some things is not correct,i will check map for these(like Mountains betwen Serbia and Bosnia-where you find that?)
Also if you dont want to have Capitals,then is probably best to remove territoriese like Skoplje,Bucurest,Sofia,Tirana)

[ZeakCytho]

i posted before, but maybe my post got lost. From a gameplay angle i think you need to split republic of srpska, as currently you can hold slovenia, bih and croatia and only have to defend 2 borders. Graphically i dont like all those small islands that you have around the place. Either increase the width so it is the same as the continent border, or make them grey. Also is it possible to include the whole of european turkey or is that not possible/

Sorry, it appears your post did get lost before

I would be fine with splitting Bosnia up, but I'd need someone to tell me a good way to do so. As it stands, you can get a +5 for holding 9 territories with two borders, the same bonus as Romania has with 10 territories and 3 borders. One solution is to make Romania worth more, another is to split Bosnia. I'd prefer splitting Bosnia, if someone could give me a good explanation of how to split it.

The islands were originally the same width as the continent borders, but they looked very odd in the Aegean Archipelagos, so they were reduced in width (see the difference from version 1 to 3). I could make them grey, unless anyone has an objection to that? I mean, some of them do belong to Greece, so it makes sense to leave them Greece-colored.

I don't think it's worth extending the map 15 pixels right to get all of Istanbul, because it adds a lot of dead space to the map.

It will also make it easier for you to follow the height restrictions and thereby allowing you a larger map (since your map is narrow and height is more restricted than width)

I'll take that as a vote for removing Crete

From a gameplay angle i think you need to split republic of srpska, as currently you can hold slovenia, bih and croatia and only have to defend 2 borders.

or perhaps even a water connection to dalmatia from albania?

That could work too, but if I remove Crete the legend willl have to move north to that area, which could make a water attack route hard to squeeze in.

Graphically i dont like all those small islands that you have around the place. Either increase the width so it is the same as the continent border, or make them grey.

I must agree that there are some problems with the greek archipelago/islands.. especially the "islands" of chalkidiki/central greek macedonia - those are actually peninsulas.

Are they? The base map I used for the region showed them as islands. But if they're peninsulas, they should definitely change. Could you take the map and circle the incorrect ones for me so I know which to get rid of?

Euboea the island to the east is a part of "central greece" and much closer to the mainland than in your map - should be redrawn imo, it´s roughly as close to the mainland as peloponnese (that used to be a peninsula before the channel was built)

Okay, I can redraw it closer for the next version

some things is not correct,i will check map for these(like Mountains betwen Serbia and Bosnia-where you find that?)
Also if you dont want to have Capitals,then is probably best to remove territoriese like Skoplje,Bucurest,Sofia,Tirana)

I used this satellite image to determine mountain placement. The area between Bosnia and Serbia is somewhat mountainous where I drew the mountains.

I'd rather not remove the territories, but rename them something else if possible. We're at a very nice number of territories now, if we drop Crete. I'm fine with renaming them, though, if you've got suggestions

Thanks for your comments, gho, snufkin, and qwert!

[snufkin]

Are they? The base map I used for the region showed them as islands. But if they're peninsulas, they should definitely change. Could you take the map and circle the incorrect ones for me so I know which to get rid of?

I used this satellite image to determine mountain placement.

that satellite image and 99.9% of all maps of Greece will show the "legs"/peninsulas of chalkidiki, and it also has the euboea island looking like its connected to mainland central greece.

[Qwert]

ok here we go.
1.Betwen Serbia and BIH is river not mountain-river Drina
2.Republika Srpska also have border with Croatia,river Sava.
3.You have many mountains who not exist in these places.
4.Montenegro have border with Croatia
5.FBIH have exit to Adriatic Sea,not Republika Srpska.
6.If you want to remove capitals,then these mean that you need to find another names for territories-Tirana,Skoplje,Podgorica,Sofia,Bucuresti.
These is for now.

I live here,and satelite sometime give wrong pictures,like Snurfkin show you with greeks peninsulah(you can see Peloponnesian war how these peninsula look)
Belive me river is betwen Serbia and BIH not mountains,you want to your map be right not wrong map of Balkan?

[ZeakCytho]

The islands will be fixed for the next version.

ok here we go.
1.Betwen Serbia and BIH is river not mountain-river Drina
2.Republika Srpska also have border with Croatia,river Sava.
3.You have many mountains who not exist in these places.
4.Montenegro have border with Croatia
5.FBIH have exit to Adriatic Sea,not Republika Srpska.
6.If you want to remove capitals,then these mean that you need to find another names for territories-Tirana,Skoplje,Podgorica,Sofia,Bucuresti.
These is for now.

I live here,and satelite sometime give wrong pictures,like Snurfkin show you with greeks peninsulah(you can see Peloponnesian war how these peninsula look)
Belive me river is betwen Serbia and BIH not mountains,you want to your map be right not wrong map of Balkan?

Sorry qwert, I'm not seeing how the satellite is wrong. In fact, it shows that snufkin was correct with the island comment.

1. While the river Drina would be more correct, various images of the area all show mountains in the area. Furthermore, it looks really bad to have a river there with no outlet to the sea. The Drina merges into the Danube, so I'd need to extent the Danube to cross southern Vojvodina and add bridges to connect Serbia, which there isn't really room for. So, unless people really have an issue with this, I'll keep mountains there.
2. We don't really need an impassable there, I think gameplay is fine without one. But if we need to add one, I'll use the river.
3. What other mountains are in not-mountainous areas?
4. Yes, it does, but it's not possible to convey that easily. Croatia just gets too narrow. I'd have to use an inset, which would complicate the map. And if we get rid of Crete, there won't be much room left for an inset.
5. Acrroding to this image, Croatia actually borders the Adriatic, but my border between FBIH and RS is correct.
6. Do you have alternate suggestions for the names of those areas? I'm perfectly willing to change them, but I don't know what to change them to.

[Qwert]

Zeak you have many unlogical answer. I live in serbia and maybe i know better then satelite what is what.
Dont forget US army use satelite when bombard mine country, and satelite many times give wrong informacions,and instead to attack Military target,they attack civilian target.
Drina is river who is conected with Sava not Danube(Sava is river border Betwen Republika Srpska and Croatia in north).
If you want to create good map of Balkan peninsual,then you need to implement correct borders,not to remove and create new borders. Soon or later you will get more valid answers that Croatia border with Montenegro.
If you want i can find you map of Balkan countries with good borders,and please dont use Satelite,if they show you wrong pictures.

[ZeakCytho]

Zeak you have many unlogical answer. I live in serbia and maybe i know better then satelite what is what.
Dont forget US army use satelite when bombard mine country, and satelite many times give wrong informacions,and instead to attack Military target,they attack civilian target.
Drina is river who is conected with Sava not Danube(Sava is river border Betwen Republika Srpska and Croatia in north).
If you want to create good map of Balkan peninsual,then you need to implement correct borders,not to remove and create new borders. Soon or later you will get more valid answers that Croatia border with Montenegro.
If you want i can find you map of Balkan countries with good borders,and please dont use Satelite,if they show you wrong pictures.

I won't say that the satellites are wrong - they can't be. There's a big difference between using a satellite to find a building to bomb and using a satellite to identify a mountain range.

But since you insist so much, I'll add in the Drina river between RS and Zlatibor and Sumadija instead of the mountains. Then I'll add the river across the border between Sumadija and Vojvodina and Zajecar and Vojvodina. This is the Sava river, I believe. Then that flows into the Danube. I'll put a bridge for crossing between Vojvodina and Zajecar, but I don't have room to add one from Vojvodina to Sumadija.

I'll be following this map for river placement:


As for the Croatia-Montenegro-Bosnia question, I'd like other input. Ideally the map should reflect the reality of the region, but I don't have enough pixels to make this viable. Any suggestions? For now, I'll try to squeeze it in, but I don't think there's enough room to show the border accurately. We'll see in version 7.

[Qwert]

You see when you want you can find correct map.
BIH have very small exit to Adriatic sea(26 km near neum) and these is in middle of Croatia coastline.

[Incandenza]

Lookin' good, zeak...

One quick comment: 48 starting terits is not a great number, as in 4p and 2v2 everyone will start with 12 terits, giving an advantage to whoever goes first.