Imperium Romanum [Quenched]

[Incandenza]

I've encountered a serious problem on this map. I just deployed 23 units onto Italia with two enemy territories bordering it, and I'm told I can't make any attacks.

Game 3655963 It's because you dropped your armies on your teammate, which was pointed out in game chat and should have been perfectly obvious. User error.

[Qwert]

I see,well next time be careful when you deploy troops.

[paulk]

It's a nice map, but the game play is not working as intended.

I am involved in game http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=3905243 and as anyone can see the game is half way through, but so far only 1 of the ships have been conquered and the wolves and the Roma bonus (the Roma Defence Incert) has been totally untouched.

I believe that this is because the neutrals are too many. If they were 1 instead of 3 it could be worth attacking them to gain more territories (and ultimately bonuses) but for the cost of 3 I will not do it.

So my suggestion is to change the neutrals on the ships and the wolves from 3 to 1. I know the map is quenched, but I think this should be done anyway.

[Qwert]

these 4 territory worth 2-and have great defence-only one territory.
3 is normal number of army on begining,and everybody have same number of army.
Ships wort even more-4 ships 4 army.
If i put 1 neutral,then everybody will in start have great chance to get these bonuses(expecialy Cohort bonuses who is easy to defend),and who first take Roma and cohort will have big advantage-expecialy in 1v1 games.

[paulk]

Some reduction of the number of armies on the bonuses should be done, since otherwise the bonuses are not worth attacking.

This is my suggestion:
The towns/banners are the only ones that in my opinion should start with 3 starting neutrals, as it currently is.
I think 1 neutral is a good start for the ships, since you have to hold 4 out of 7 ships to get the bonus of 4. It is not that easy to hold 4 ships one round.
Or you could change the bonus to be 2 for every 3 ships. Or a combination of 2 for 3 and 4 for 4, even though I personally think a combination would be bad gameplay.
Since 3 wolves only are worth 1 bonus, that should in my opinion also only be 1 neutral. As it is you have to fight 9 neutrals to get 1 bonus. A cost that statistically will take 9 rounds to get paid back, and there is no critical need to go through/conquer those.
If you get the town as well, that is a cost of 12, (or 15, since you have to conquer Italy as well,) for a bonus of 2, with only one point to defend, as you said. So then the payback will be taking 6-8 rounds.
One option could be to make the first wolf 1, the second 2 and the third 3 before Roma - starting with 3 neutrals.

[paulk]

no response?

[Qwert]

What responde you want? These map is very good balanced,and every body start equal, if in any case these been like you say,then in some player option(1v1) player who start with army who is close to Italy will have advantage over player who dont start close to prevent that,Also in doubles,team who start close to italy will also have advantage.
Present gameplay dont give nobody any advantage.
As concern ships,again someon will have privilege to start in possition who not defend shops with neutrals(Brittania defend ships,Ittaly defend ships,Aegyptus defend ships),and some people will start in Moesia Inferior,Mauretania Caesariensis,Germania Inferior,Bithynia et Pontus, and these people will have exclusive advantage to in start game can attack territory who have only one neutral,and what with these player who dont have there right?

[HungrySomali]

I have never seen anyone get the ships bonus in any game I have played on this map. I think the problem is with needing to get 4 of them. They are just too spread out for that to be a viable strategy. If I had my way, they would just be a straight 1 for 1 or at most 2 for 2. Assuming you have armies close enough to 4 ships to even consider it, to get this bonus you have to kill 12 Neutrals. Thats 12 armies that dont affect your opponents strength in any way and do nothing but weaken you. I think you need to take a look at all the bonuses on this map. I have played 5 or 6 games on this map and so far I think I've only ever seen anyone get the Civitas Romanum and Rome bonuses. I dont play 1v1 and dont think the game should be balanced toward 1v1.

[Qwert]

I have played 5 or 6 games on this map and so far I think I've only ever seen anyone get the Civitas Romanum and Rome bonuses.

Dont understand,you want to tell me that you play games where nobody take Civitates and Roma bonuses?

I dont play 1v1 and dont think the game should be balanced toward 1v1.

Sorry map must be balanced to be for all player numbers, in that way everybody is equal.

[Gilligan]

In the games I've played, no one has taken the Classis Romanum, which is what I think he meant. Roma is also hardly used too.

[Qwert]

by Gilligan » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:51 pm

In the games I've played, no one has taken the Classis Romanum, which is what I think he meant. Roma is also hardly used too.

well gill,you have many maps,when some bonuses left not conquered, and belive me these is best option,any other option will unbalance map,and give some player advantage.

[pamoa]

I've only tried once to take the ships but it cost me the game. So I like the suggestion that like the cities the ships are 1 troop bonus for each or at least 2 for 2 so it may be interesting to hold them as it's true they are controlled by only one territory.

[Fineturno]

Hi, great map, I love it!

Just some little truble about Latin. In the bonus box there are some uncorrect writings: here the right ones (I guess):

Cohortes Pretoriae (plural)
Classis Romanae (plural and feminine)
Legiones Romanae (plural and feminine)
Civitates Romanae (feminine)

I played some game and I see it's very hard to have the Classis bonus and no one was able to have it. Maybe it could be easier with a lesser number of Classis needed.

Hi and grats for the map!

[Qwert]

by Fineturno » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:15 pm

Hi, great map, I love it!

Just some little truble about Latin. In the bonus box there are some uncorrect writings: here the right ones (I guess):

Cohortes Pretoriae (plural)
Classis Romanae (plural and feminine)
Legiones Romanae (plural and feminine)
Civitates Romanae (feminine)

I played some game and I see it's very hard to have the Classis bonus and no one was able to have it. Maybe it could be easier with a lesser number of Classis needed.

Hi and grats for the map!

Finaly that some people know Latin-you are probably first who know latin,but you come to late,because i dont have any attention to change these,because its quite simple-many people dont know latin,including me-i work on these map very long period,and nobody have complaining abouth that,and now when map is out beta,changes is not going to hepend,becausa these changes will not have any influences on gameplay and graphic.

Also i want to finish all discusion abouth Classis,these will stay like now,because all other solutions is wrong for gameplay, also next time is much better to come here and participiate in map production,and maybe will some thing be possible to change,but now Map is out beta stage, so these mean that changes is finish(except if someon find some very big mistakes who have big influences on gameplay or on graphic)

[AndyDufresne]

Changes, graphical, can be made when a map is out of Beta. Once a map leaves Beta, it doesn't mean that it is "Safe" from any changes. A cartographer should always went their best product available, even if only a few know there are some inaccuracies.


--Andy

[Qwert]

by AndyDufresne » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Changes, graphical, can be made when a map is out of Beta. Once a map leaves Beta, it doesn't mean that it is "Safe" from any changes. A cartographer should always went their best product available, even if only a few know there are some inaccuracies.


--Andy

I dont know what you talk,but from Rewamps what i look a little if Original Cartographer dont give permision,then its not possible to change nothing,or im wrong read rules
Any way, from now if someon have any things abouth Imperium romanum,please send me PM,because im tired of contantly explanation,why is something look like now. Maybe is better for all people who dont follow proces on these map,to try to read a little all topic.
Like i say these map have very long period to determin what is best,and now sugestion like"remove ships,decreas number of neutrals" dont have valid explanation,because balance of map will be ruin. If you dont take ship,these not mean that you will lost a game. I play many games,and im losing game because dices,not because i dont take ships.

[Gilligan]

I think he's saying you should make the minor fixes.

[lt_oddball]

what is the point of having these 3 small Alpes regions ?
Especially the red and white dot areas ? The white one is not different in path/borders than the other one.
And then the green one has access to (too) many great territories in France and Germania ?!?!

If the idea is to recreate the terrain difficulty (mountain paths), in that many small territories on the map simulate slow progress in reality, then why not had these 3 territories put in sequence (from west to east) ?


ALso I find there are a LOT of Legio Romanum cluttered in "Asia", which, together with the cities and being in the map corner with three sides fairly easy covered, means that conquering Asia is THE key to win the game.
So unbalanced.
Why is that so ?

If you took basis in history on a certain moment that there happen to be more roman armies active/fighting in Asia than in the west/or africa, then that is a bad excuse. Because in your map the players/armies are bound to return and fight inside the Roman Empire territories whereas those historical armies in Asia were doing border offensive actions versus the arab-asian tribes and kingdoms and the rebellion troops within palestine.

Better focus on balanced gameplay disposition of bonusses than on historical snap shots.


and a third thing:
What is the point of creating "fleets" when there is no use made for them in the map ?
One player can make cross channel invasions (Britain, Gibraltar, Sicily, etc) without being hindered by the player that holds the "navy" in that area.
That is silly. They all act as "appendices" in the map. Useless , except for a bonus when you control many of them.
It is so easy to recreate the notion that only by controlling the seas locally can you transport your army over a channel.
That is more realistic and makes gameplay a bit more interesting/exciting.

[Extraterrestrial]

whats with the yellow dots and black dots? I dployed to Belgica and tried to attack LO and it wont let me. whats up with that?

[Gilligan]

whats with the yellow dots and black dots? I dployed to Belgica and tried to attack LO and it wont let me. whats up with that?

'LO' is named 'Britannia'. Not sure what the LO stands for.

[cena-rules]

whats with the yellow dots and black dots? I dployed to Belgica and tried to attack LO and it wont let me. whats up with that?

'LO' is named 'Britannia'. Not sure what the LO stands for.

Londinium

[Gilligan]

I've been thinking.

What if we reduced some of the neutrals on this map?

Rarely does someone go for the Classis - what if the neutral were reduced to 2?

On top of that, what if we made Italia, Cohors I and Cohors II starting positions, that way the Cohors also gets used, which also never does currently?

[danryan]

I've been thinking.

What if we reduced some of the neutrals on this map?

Rarely does someone go for the Classis - what if the neutral were reduced to 2?

On top of that, what if we made Italia, Cohors I and Cohors II starting positions, that way the Cohors also gets used, which also never does currently?

Agree with both suggestions. A wonderful map with a lot of wasted territories. All anyone will go for are the civitates as the legio is generally a bonus that is only held if you're winning. I've seen someone go for Italy and the rome bonus maybe once. A shame because the map is very clever and has a lot of good choke points. It is excellent for team games too.

[Raskholnikov]

I think the map is perfectly designed as it is. The author thought carefully about what he was doing and why he left Italy and Rome neutral. While in 1 v 1 these elements get used relatively rarely, in group plays they play a key strategic role.

I don't think we should start unbalancing a very good and popular map, especially since its auhor is no longer here to defend his views.

This map has been quenched. That must MEAN something. At the very least, it must mean that it cannot be modified without the author's consent.

[Gilligan]

I think the map is perfectly designed as it is. The author thought carefully about what he was doing and why he left Italy and Rome neutral. While in 1 v 1 these elements get used relatively rarely, in group plays they play a key strategic role.

I've played some team games on this map, and I still don't really see the Classis or the Cohors being used.

I don't think we should start unbalancing a very good and popular map, especially since its auhor is no longer here to defend his views.

qwert is still here. It may be balanced the way it is now, but putting in more factors while keeping it balanced would make the games more interesting.

This map has been quenched. That must MEAN something. At the very least, it must mean that it cannot be modified without the author's consent.

Right. All I am doing is putting up a discussion as to whether it may be a good idea or not.