[GO] Unrated, Unranked, or No Points Games

[Prankcall]

The problem with this is if there is a no-point safe zone even if your commited to this for your whole time at CC it changes only the fact no1 will have a need to improve.They will continually suicide on other people because the only thing they lose is somebody else's possible win which doesn't lose that other person points either but I'm sure he would be a bit upset to have no indication of this guy's skill level or gameplay tendencies.

[GrimReaper.]

number 1 is being discussed


http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=69166

[Megadeth666]

I think a practice option would be great!....Specially with all these new maps coming out, would be nice to see how it works first before you have lose points to people who already mastered it. Maybe have a restriction so you are only allowed to practice the map once.

[Hatchman]

I'm behind you on this Walnut. In fact, I lobbied for something along the same lines at least twice. I believe I was shot down. Hopefully, your proposition will be given serious consideration. There are millions of Friends I'd invite to games where it was just for fun, no points involved. After all, that's how the board game is played most of the time in the real world. Fun for friends and families!

[walnutwatson]

How am I supposed to know how good my opponent is if their score is not indicative of their skill?

You can check anyones win percentage already. There's all sorts of information on people's walls that is perfect for finding players at your level and also players that play the sort of games you want to play.
Anyway, the suggestion was for an option to play unranked.
I never suggested that everyone should play like that.

[lancehoch]

Anyway, the suggestion was for an option to play unranked.
I never suggested that everyone should play like that.

Right, but if some people play, how do I know who they are. This would affect everyone.

[walnutwatson]

Do you mean how will you know if they've been practicing on the unranked option? I suppose the games they play unranked could still count to their win percentage.
Or players who partake of the unranked games could have a badge or their name flashing or anything really to show that they play unranked and then you could avoid them if you think you have to.
I don't really see the problem though, not everyone with a high rank is necessarily a good player and not everyone with a low rank is necessarily a bad player, noob farming and being extremely selective which games you play can get a mediocre player to a high rank and I've played quite a few games with some very good low ranking players.

[porkenbeans]

Look, I have said this in many ways. I will try to say it in yet one more way. All games should be practice, except Those that are played where all ranks are of the same, or close to the same level. PERIOD. Just think outside the box for one moment. Think of all that would mean. NO MORE FARMING, NO MORE MULTIES, You could still play your friends or family. You could still mentor. Turnys could be made exempt from this rule as the managers would be there to keep an eye on things. Please for the love of ''RISK'' haha, Change your precious scoring system to reflect the true skill level of players.

[walnutwatson]

Just think outside the box for one moment.

Hey, I always think outside the box. I'm also a big fan of pushing the envelope.

[Woodruff]

Ok, the main reason I want to play unscored games with other people of the same persuasion is mainly because I find the attitude of a lot of people on the site irritating, self-righteous, aggressive and indignant. I like banter in games and I like people getting passionate about the game but I don't like people dictating how others should play or making assumptions about others based on the events in a game.
I'd simply like the option to play in a fun, friendly and welcoming atmosphere. I'm not saying that all CC games are full of elitist buffoons but there are a lot of them out there.

This is precisely correct. I agree with your belief that such a points-free zone WOULD be largely without the massive number of assholes that seem to frequent this site and if this were approved, then it would at least cause me to stick around and give it a shot.

However, given that it appears that this has been previously proposed and, despite large support, shot down...please tell me the other sites of this nature that you frequent so that I can leave this one and join another. But PM me...as much as this place seems to be perfectly happy to allow assholes to flame me, I'm sure they'd cry about your advertising another site openly.

Thanks.

[porkenbeans]

Ok, the main reason I want to play unscored games with other people of the same persuasion is mainly because I find the attitude of a lot of people on the site irritating, self-righteous, aggressive and indignant. I like banter in games and I like people getting passionate about the game but I don't like people dictating how others should play or making assumptions about others based on the events in a game.
I'd simply like the option to play in a fun, friendly and welcoming atmosphere. I'm not saying that all CC games are full of elitist buffoons but there are a lot of them out there.

This is precisely correct. I agree with your belief that such a points-free zone WOULD be largely without the massive number of assholes that seem to frequent this site and if this were approved, then it would at least cause me to stick around and give it a shot.

However, given that it appears that this has been previously proposed and, despite large support, shot down...please tell me the other sites of this nature that you frequent so that I can leave this one and join another. But PM me...as much as this place seems to be perfectly happy to allow assholes to flame me, I'm sure they'd cry about your advertising another site openly.

Thanks.

I know how you feel brother. I have been reading and writing until im blue. Sometimes I think that this place is run by a bunch of 15 year olds.

[denominator]

I don't think this is a necessary option.

For those of you who are so set on becoming Conquerer, play the game the way that best gets you there. I grow weary of hearing "I could be Conquerer but I don't want to for reason X."

The reason everyone is here is because we enjoy playing RISK, and wanted to translate it into something of a hobby rather than a once-in-a-while deal with friends. The ranking system and scoreboard are the way they are because it works, and there really is no need for a ratings free zone. The scoreboard and ratings are to stop players from suiciding and making stupid plays because they are bored of the game, and if you introduce an arena where there are no negative effects, the number of suiciders will drastically increase.

[walnutwatson]

if you introduce an arena where there are no negative effects, the number of suiciders will drastically increase.

I don't agree and even if this did turn out to be true it wouldn't matter because all the uptight folk who think suiciding, playing differently to them, playing experimental strategies, etc. are the work of the devil wouldn't be in the unranked area anyway, so nobody would mind too much.

I can't understand why there is opposition to this. I'll state one last time that this would be an OPTION!!!!! Nobody would force you to use it. If you're into scoring points and seeing your name on the scoreboard you would not be there in the first place so what possible reason could you have for being against it, it would not affect your game.

Also people keep stating as reasons against the idea various ways in which it would upset the peopled who just care about the points system. What about the rest of us? Are our needs somehow less important? It's this stuck up attitude from certain types that I want nothing to do with.

[spiesr]

I don't see the point of discussing this as I believe that in the past lack has decided he has no intention of ever doing this...
Discussing pretty much any topic listed as rejected won't do much good lack will likely never implement it.

[PepperJack]

Also people keep stating as reasons against the idea various ways in which it would upset the peopled who just care about the points system. What about the rest of us? Are our needs somehow less important?

Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. An option for unranked games is asking to care about the point system sometimes, when its really an all or nothing matter, especially if you want the point system to mean anything ever.

The arguments that score would be less indicative of skill are correct. Consider the following simplified analogy: Sports teams do not practice in their respective stadia, just as all players enter the arena of CC to enter into ranked competition. (CC is the stadium, not the practice facility, I don't think the analogy was particularly good so that's the explanation, I don't feel like editing the actual analogy but I'm okay writing this not so succinct summary)

I would recommend printing out maps and playing against friends and family in person if you want unranked games.

Other arguments I considered writing about include (but are not limited to):

• Previously rejected in its base form
• Multi haven for those seeking to get around 4 game limits (less policing b/c less people care b/c there are no points)
• Certain suiciders/deadbeats would undoubtedly increase (I'm specifically thinking freemiums that have the ability to discern lost causes, this behavior also kills the idea of a practice area since its no longer indicative of how a real game is played (generally))
• Hangings/being hung would increase. Think online poker with fake money. "Heck yeah, I'll go all in with an 2-7 off suit, not like I'm playing for anything." While the point system itself is made up, it is the only thing providing any framework for measurable success and without fear of loss people are idiots.

Having unranked matches is in the same vein as telling people "what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas." Now walk down the strip and tell me its a good representation of society as a whole. I pro-actively elect to call you a liar and a hyperbolist if you are thinking about drawing grand parallels.

As you might be able to discern, I do not want unranked matches.

[walnutwatson]

Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. An option for unranked games is asking to care about the point system sometimes, when its really an all or nothing matter, especially if you want the point system to mean anything ever.

I disagree. To use your sporting analogy, teams play friendlies all the time as a way of practicing, getting warmed up for a big match, etc.
I don't see why playing some games friendly and some games for points would work any differently in CC.

Certain suiciders/deadbeats would undoubtedly increase (I'm specifically thinking freemiums that have the ability to discern lost causes, this behavior also kills the idea of a practice area since its no longer indicative of how a real game is played (generally))

If this is the case you have no need to worry because I assume you wouldn't want to play unranked games anyway, so what's the problem.
I disagree here as well. I think that the people who would play unranked games would be playing for fun and to play for fun is just as much a "real game" as you put it as a game played for points. In fact in my opinion it is a more real game because people partaking will not have one eye on an artificial measure of how good they are compared to other people, which is what the rankings encourage.
Also I don't see why people would suicide more because they would not be playing to get to the top of a leaderboard and therefore would probably not be taking the game seriously enough to want to perform spiteful acts like that and in any case it wouldn't affect anyone's points so no one would be too bothered even if it did happen.

As for your argument that you would not know people's 'true' skill level. I think most people who want to play for points would steer clear of unranked games therefore leaving their skill level unaffected by the option.
And there are a lot of people out there who believe that the ranking system is a completely inaccurate measure of peoples skill level.

[PepperJack]

I think you missed the point that all games HERE have to be for points all the time or none of the time. (Not that it was my focus, but previous posters have gone at it.)

Lets say I'm me. Except that I played 1300+ unranked games. My high/low score is 1000.

Now lets look at me for real. I've played 1300+ games. My high score is 2200-ish and low is 850-ish. Current is 1600-1700.

One of these players obviously knows how to do something right (at least occasionally), the other one appears to be the same as a New Recruit just with more games. Giving players the option to sometimes play unranked games obfuscates (potential) opponents ability guesstimate the type of opponent/partner they are dealing with. If we want to continue down the sporting road, its the only site enabled scouting that provides summation of a player without having to waste one's life away analyzing their every turn.

In fact in my opinion it is a more real game because people partaking will not have one eye on an artificial measure of how good they are compared to other people, which is what the rankings encourage.

You need to explain how extra motivation to win (points/epeening) demotivates players. This makes zero sense to me. If the incentive to win was a turd sandwich, I'd be inclined to agree, but its points, POINTS!

Also I don't see why people would suicide more because they would not be playing to get to the top of a leaderboard and therefore would probably not be taking the game seriously enough to want to perform spiteful acts like that and in any case it wouldn't affect anyone's points so no one would be too bothered even if it did happen

The suiciding/deadbeating I was referencing was to purposely exit games, not be a jerk. I made certain to make that clear, but I will re-highlight the main point "specifically freemiums with the ability to discern lost causes." Spiteful acts will continue to exist regardless of points. I'd guess that they'd increase because there's no point ramification to being stupid. Don't argue that though, we'd just start going in circles, I agree to disagree on that specific point.

As for your argument that you would not know people's 'true' skill level. I think most people who want to play for points would steer clear of unranked games therefore leaving their skill level unaffected by the option.

See above. Has to be all or nothing.

And there are a lot of people out there who believe that the ranking system is a completely inaccurate measure of peoples skill level.

A lot of people believe that the current scoring system can be worked, but is relatively indicative of skill. I think my statement is significantly closer to the truth.

Allow me to directly ask you this. Why can't you just ignore the point system? Don't click your profile. Don't look at the scoreboard. Just play the game. Why does this NEED to be an option? The way I see it, no benefit is provided that can't be had through ignorance to points. Please address.

[lancehoch]

watson,
If you really do not care about points, does it matter if the games are ranked or not?
If you do care about points, would you rather your opponent's score represent his/her skill or not?

If it does not matter, then we do not need a new system; just play the games and don't look at the scoreboard. If you would rather that someone's score be representative, then the system cannot change.

If I am missing something, please let me know, but it seems that the argument is just that you want to be able to get better without losing points.

[azezzo]

i support this sugesstion, would be a good learning tool, especially for new players and for new maps

[walnutwatson]

You need to explain how extra motivation to win (points/epeening) demotivates players. This makes zero sense to me. If the incentive to win was a turd sandwich, I'd be inclined to agree, but its points, POINTS!

I didn't suggest that people would be demotivated I was suggesting that people playing for points are not playing the game for the sake of playing the game, for fun or for sake of enjoying games. They are playing to earn points which is a different thing. If you play a board game at home you are playing to win that single game and it is a lot of fun without the need to qualify your gaming existence with seeing your name on a leaderboard.

As for the suggestion that I ignore the points system, this point has been brought up repeatedly and answered repeatedly.
I already do ignore the points system as far as I can, the point of an unranked area is not to ignore the points system it is to offer an area for those who play for fun and the sake of playing the game and a seperate area for those who are playing for points and status.

I think the two groups irritate each other, as you show through your hatred of suiciding.
Here's an example: I play a similar board game often with my friends and sometimes somebody will suicide just to get at a person who has irritated them. Because we are not playing for points or status this just becomes another hazard of the game and is taken in the spirit of the game and nobody gets upset over it, in fact it just creates more passion in the game and more intricate relationships between the players.
Imagine if the same happened on CC in a points game, the suicider would get a huge amount of grief from the points loving players just because they didn't play according to the points loving players idea of good etiquette.

My reasons for wanting an unranked area has nothing to do with getting better at the game it is to encourage playing for fun and not to score points as I don't think the two camps really see eye to eye and sometimes it can spoil the whole atmosphere of the game.

If you want to score points or only play other of a certain quality then stick to ranked games. If you want to play just for fun play the unranked games.
Yes this could create anomalies in peoples skill level compared to their rank but it why would someone who's going to play ranked games want to play unranked and not have their score increase? It doesn't make sense, unless they're going there to practice and if that's the case then their rank would quickly catch up to their skill level after a few games of ranked and the anomaly would be cancelled out. I'm not suggesting that everyone should be forced to play unranked games so you would still be able to find loads of people with accurate skill/ranking.
An easy way to solve the problem if it did exist would be to (as I've already said) show on their ranking somehow whether or not they play unranked and then you could ignore them and need not fear sneaky people practicing on unranked, although I think you're being a bit pedantic to be honest and these criticisms are very minor and in some cases almost non-existent.

[porkenbeans]

if you introduce an arena where there are no negative effects, the number of suiciders will drastically increase.

I don't agree and even if this did turn out to be true it wouldn't matter because all the uptight folk who think suiciding, playing differently to them, playing experimental strategies, etc. are the work of the devil wouldn't be in the unranked area anyway, so nobody would mind too much.

I can't understand why there is opposition to this. I'll state one last time that this would be an OPTION!!!!! Nobody would force you to use it. If you're into scoring points and seeing your name on the scoreboard you would not be there in the first place so what possible reason could you have for being against it, it would not affect your game.

Also people keep stating as reasons against the idea various ways in which it would upset the peopled who just care about the points system. What about the rest of us? Are our needs somehow less important? It's this stuck up attitude from certain types that I want nothing to do with.

The opposition is because it will steal the farmers new crops. plain and simple. I do NOT see the other sides logic. They keep saying that the points matter because they represent the players skill. Are you kidding me ? The point system is a joke because, Those that are not good enough, circle the recruiting station like a bunch of sharks. And don't even get me started on the default ''freestyle'' setting. These sharks can NOT play ''RISK'' so they gobble up the easy points. Then you turn around and say that the points reflect a players skill. I have said it before and I will keep saying it, CCs' ranking system does NOT show the best ''RISK'' players at the top. Only a retard would subscribe to such poor logic. ...Sorry.

[PepperJack]

You play to win the game.

I won't disagree that some enjoyment I get here at CC comes from camaraderie or what not, but Herm said it best and you should click for full effect.

The example that you cite for suiciding is exactly what happens here, except that there are no underlying relationships to worry about maintaining, so some people are prone to verbally unloading on a person without fear of meaningful retribution. That passion you speak of is anger, being masked by social norms that don't have to be adhered to on the internet. And good etiquette includes not pointlessly suiciding in the game this game may or may not be based on.

Honestly, I don't see how having a point system can detract from fun. If anything, greater intrinsic rewards can be garnered from it. "Rad, new high score!" "Sweetalicious, another medal!" etc. In your spirit-of-the-game area, all games are completely disconnected entities that provide only the fleeting scent of satisfaction when one wins. By making every game its own disparate being, you are inherently asking to limit people's satisfaction. (And, as I stated before, this point free area has to be all or nothing otherwise it further devalues the point system.)

To address what may be a forthcoming series of questions: Yes, I play this game for fun. I most definitely have more fun when I am winning. I do garner satisfaction from besting my bests. Maintaining a "decent" rank through an awful losing streak does provide a slight silver lining to the storm cloud. When I play against my friends (IRL on the game this game may or may not be based on) I do get pissy if they pull some absolutely idiotic move.

[walnutwatson]

p

[walnutwatson]

PorkenBeans I think you're right. No one has any real arguments of any substance, there is definately an underlying agenda against what would be a basically harmless addition to CC.
Do you know how we can get an official word on this?
My plan so far has been to try and keep the subject going and answer all counter-arguments and hope Lack or some other official would tell us what's what, but since people are just repeating arguments already put forward without referring to the previous answers or coming up with any real valid grievances against the idea I'm getting sick of repeating myself. Is there an alternative course?

[PepperJack]

That passion you speak of is anger, being masked by social norms that don't have to be adhered to on the internet. And good etiquette includes not pointlessly suiciding in the game this game may or may not be based on.

This really pisses me off. I gave you an example from my own personal experience and now, even though you don't know any of the people involved, including me, and even though you were not there you're saying that I am wrong.
How can you make such a self-important assumption? I guarantee that my friends and I are not afraid in the slightest of offending one another.
To suggest that I am masking my emotions to my friends is laughable, as is the suggestion that a game of risk is important enough for me to have genuinely negative emotions towards people who I have been friends with for between 14 to 25 years. If I could give you a few examples of the things I have been through in my life, experiences that I have shared with these people - friends with serious drug/alcohol addiction, friends who have been raped, friends who have committed suicide, divorces, redundancies, basically a hell of a lot. And for you to say to me that our emotions towards one another are 'masked by social norms' is utterly ridiculous. If we can get through the troubles I've mentioned above (and believed me that list is not exhaustive) and relate to one another honestly don't you think it's a bit idiotic to suggest that we can't show our true emotions over a board game?

Fair enough, I mistyped when I directly referenced the specific example you used. My intent was to take it to a generalized state. That generalization is that if the people who were playing CC were sitting at a table together instead of sitting at their computers there would be far less likelihood of verbal explosion. The anonymity of the internet is a breeding ground for unfettered @ssholery. So people here go off on each other, they would do it if there weren't points. Stupidity is not tolerated by most individuals and there is no reason to think that CC can become a bastion of cute and cuddly kindness in a sea of dickery, regardless of if points were or were not lost. Point is, people get pissed on the internet and not having points won't quiet the worst offenders.

And if you truly think things like:

"Rad, new high score!" "Sweetalicious, another medal!"

then I think you should really look at your priorities.

Do I have to stick my tongue through my cheek? All I was doing was mockingly illustrating potential exclamations of happiness. I literally spent tens of hundreds of milliseconds mulling over my verbiage. Anyways, I'm fairly certain it's part of the human condition to be pleased with improving on any of one's accomplishments, even if they are in a browser based game.

And what on earth has Herm Edwards got to do with CC? He is paid money to do a job and if he doesn't he gets sacked. I play CC to have fun and if I lose, what happens? Sod all!
And I've already stated that I play for fun, but again I suppose I'm 'masking' my real emotions and am therefore a win hungry ultra-competitive person, just like everyone according to you.

I can't really disagree with too much here. I mean, you do further generalize my generalization, but yeah, most people are competitive. Say that you don't care about winning all you want to, but if you get even a hint of a glimmer of an iota of a quark (ad nauseum) of satisfaction, then you're lying to yourself. (I didn't explicitly say you were lying there, don't misquote me.) And Herm Edwards doesn't have to speak to CC directly, his words echo for all competitions. You play to win the game.

And good etiquette includes not pointlessly suiciding in the game this game may or may not be based on.

As for this, that's an opinion, not a fact. As I stated before I have no problem with people suiciding but as you seem to think I'm lying or 'masking' my true emotions or whatever I don't suppose my opinion will count as much as yours.

I don't have issue with people suiciding, I just hope they learn from their terrible play and get better.

My previous post, as well as this one, are not meant to be personal attacks on you. You just happen to be advocating an ideology that I am fundamentally opposed to. I am sure you are very nice and smell great. But I can't agree with you that a point free zone in any way enhances this site. The nature of games and people is to be competitive. There is no reason to create a bubble-wrapped , scratch and sniff sticker zone where people trade rainbows for unicorns according to the federal gumdrop rate. All players must equally sacrifice their points to learn. And people will suck even if there are no points, I mean look at me, I don't get any points for writing this.