[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[OliverFA]

Wow, just stumbled across this, but it sounds amazing! So creative too. I will read all the in between posts before I repeat questions already answered, but this looks so cool.

Thanks for your support SuicidalSnowman

I tried to summarize everything in the first post. Well... at least almost everything. So you can just read the first post. And don't worry about saying anything that has already been said. Better to have a repeated comment than not to having any comment at all! Plus, if your comment matches a previous one, then I will see that there is special interest for that particular point.

Anyway, thanks again

[SuicidalSnowman]

OK, read the first post.

So I understand that the Tech Tree will be branching, as you have described. I think it is important that if you head down on path, that you can't skip over to the next path. In other words, you can't get advanced territories and then move straight to advanced continents without getting basic continents.

I also think the final research (atom bomb maybe?) should require you to go down several research paths, but itself have fewer neutrals to win. I don't know if the XML or game engine supports this though.

***EDIT I see you got this one in there! Think its a great idea***Another idea of research path: Elementary Science and Secondary Science: Provides additional funding to elementary school (unviersity for second level) science programs, resulting in more scientists and faster research. Provides an auto-deploy on your science path, making research objectives faster.

I don't know if you have solved this one yet, but an idea:

The starting point (palace, I believe) should connect to YOUR science path. This would make assassin games feasible, once you take an opponents starting point, you can kill off their armies on their science path ONLY. Make it a one way border to prevent scientists from joining the regular army. This also means that someone could try to go "science only" and divert all troops to the science path.

I think this is an awesome idea. I will be following closely, and if you need anyone to play test this map, I would be more than willing to donate my points to try it out.

[OliverFA]

OK, read the first post.

So I understand that the Tech Tree will be branching, as you have described. I think it is important that if you head down on path, that you can't skip over to the next path. In other words, you can't get advanced territories and then move straight to advanced continents without getting basic continents.

First I thougt about making it branching. But there is a big issue with that approach. As you see, we have to fit everything in a limited space. And it doesn't look like there is room to fit the tree representation. So now I am heading more towards a more open approach, in which you can research all the basic technologies in any order and you need to have the corresponding basic technology to research the advanced one.

I also think the final research (atom bomb maybe?) should require you to go down several research paths, but itself have fewer neutrals to win. I don't know if the XML or game engine supports this though.

It would be very nice if we could make all the other technologies requisite for the winning technology (I also like atomic bomb as the name for this tech) but I am afraid that with the current XML is not possible so the way to prevent players from researching it too soon is placing a lot of neutrals (we will call it "research cost" ) in the tech to ensure that only a player with a healthy economy can research it.

***EDIT I see you got this one in there! Think its a great idea***Another idea of research path: Elementary Science and Secondary Science: Provides additional funding to elementary school (unviersity for second level) science programs, resulting in more scientists and faster research. Provides an auto-deploy on your science path, making research objectives faster.

Yes, I got the idea. But I had a very ugly name for that tech. I called it "Research boost". I like your name a lot more! So if that's ok for you, I will call the technology "University" from now on

I don't know if you have solved this one yet, but an idea:

The starting point (palace, I believe) should connect to YOUR science path. This would make assassin games feasible, once you take an opponents starting point, you can kill off their armies on their science path ONLY. Make it a one way border to prevent scientists from joining the regular army. This also means that someone could try to go "science only" and divert all troops to the science path.

Thanks for pointing that possible problem with assassin games. We thougt about that problem. Our solution was to create the "spy/saboteur" technology. This technology allows to bombard each other players research territories. Personally I prefer not to place a border between a palace and a lab because then players could research the same technology several times and get the effects also several times. This is not how the map is supposed to work. Also, having a territory (the lab) that can only belong to one single player allows to introduce concepts like cultural unrest, in which a player gets less reinforcements from foreign lands until he researchs "Cultural acceptance".

I think this is an awesome idea. I will be following closely, and if you need anyone to play test this map, I would be more than willing to donate my points to try it out.

Thanks again for your comments. They are really helpful! Right now we are trying to define the impassables in the map. If you have any idea about it, it will be very welcome

Thanks so much.

[SuicidalSnowman]

Well, I see you guys got most of it.

For me personally, I would always rather see worse graphics but better gameplay. I don't think you need the huge ocean in the corner.

As for the mechanics of the impassables, the upper left has many of them, and the rest of the map currently has none, so obsiously this needs to be remedied.

I would focus on how to best draw out the unique research gameplay.

Example:
The number of held region bonus: Having many territories with few choke points, or choke points far from your initial palace, support this bonus. Having many choke points would discourage this.

The continent bonus: Having continents that are easy to take and hold, or with large bonuses, supports this reserach. Large number of territories in each continent, or few choke points, would discourage it.

Research Units Bonus: A difficult map (perhaps one that is wide open, or easy to fortify in) would encourage this. If it was very difficult to win a map by holding all palaces or eliminating your competition, it would make more sense to play the reseach to final weapon game.


I think having the region bonus for the area around your starting palace be rather small. The middle of the map, I would like to see more contestable, and harder to hold. I think, however, it would make sense to have at least two, maybe three, territories leading into your palace, to allow for some turtling, but not make it impossible to crack while someone happily researches the final weapon.

Just some initial thoughts of mine.

[yeti_c]

All of the above post is very very good...

I think this is one of the most important parts...

I think, however, it would make sense to have at least two, maybe three, territories leading into your palace, to allow for some turtling, but not make it impossible to crack while someone happily researches the final weapon

Another thought - perhaps if we can't achieve as epic a map as this idea deserves - then you could consider dropping 2 players to give yourself more real estate.

C.

[Emperor_Metalman]

Well, I see you guys got most of it.


I think having the region bonus for the area around your starting palace be rather small. The middle of the map, I would like to see more contestable, and harder to hold. I think, however, it would make sense to have at least two, maybe three, territories leading into your palace, to allow for some turtling, but not make it impossible to crack while someone happily researches the final weapon.

Just some initial thoughts of mine.

I agree.
To provide nore bonuses, cities could be added to the map to give some sort of autodeploy bonus.
Also, the bomb technology could allow you to attack any city on the map.

[OliverFA]

All of the above post is very very good...

I think this is one of the most important parts...

I think, however, it would make sense to have at least two, maybe three, territories leading into your palace, to allow for some turtling, but not make it impossible to crack while someone happily researches the final weapon

Another thought - perhaps if we can't achieve as epic a map as this idea deserves - then you could consider dropping 2 players to give yourself more real estate.

C.

As much as I would love to make an 8 players map, I realize that your suggestion has a lot of sense. With 2 less players we would have more room for real state, but also for the labs and the instructions. I am considering the suggestion right now, and will probably follow it. Thanks for it!

[OliverFA]

Well, I see you guys got most of it.

For me personally, I would always rather see worse graphics but better gameplay. I don't think you need the huge ocean in the corner.

As for the mechanics of the impassables, the upper left has many of them, and the rest of the map currently has none, so obsiously this needs to be remedied.

I would focus on how to best draw out the unique research gameplay.

Example:
The number of held region bonus: Having many territories with few choke points, or choke points far from your initial palace, support this bonus. Having many choke points would discourage this.

The continent bonus: Having continents that are easy to take and hold, or with large bonuses, supports this reserach. Large number of territories in each continent, or few choke points, would discourage it.

Research Units Bonus: A difficult map (perhaps one that is wide open, or easy to fortify in) would encourage this. If it was very difficult to win a map by holding all palaces or eliminating your competition, it would make more sense to play the reseach to final weapon game.


I think having the region bonus for the area around your starting palace be rather small. The middle of the map, I would like to see more contestable, and harder to hold. I think, however, it would make sense to have at least two, maybe three, territories leading into your palace, to allow for some turtling, but not make it impossible to crack while someone happily researches the final weapon.

Just some initial thoughts of mine.

That makes lots of sense SuicidalSnowman. The geographic map should complement the techs. Or to say in another way, we need to have the techs in mind while designing the geographic map.

[OliverFA]

To provide nore bonuses, cities could be added to the map to give some sort of autodeploy bonus.

I thougt about it. The problem is that autodeploy bonus cannot be increased with the current XML, and that would go a bit against the map concept. For that reason I prefer no to use autodeploy bonus.

Also, the bomb technology could allow you to attack any city on the map.

That is an interesting option. Making the bomb technology able to attack any part of the map would be too powerful (unless we place this tech in place of the winning tech) but making the bomb technology able to attack only the cities could be interesting, and would fit the WW2 theme. Just like when Germany attacked London at the end of the war with the missiles.

[SuicidalSnowman]

That is an interesting option. Making the bomb technology able to attack any part of the map would be too powerful (unless we place this tech in place of the winning tech) but making the bomb technology able to attack only the cities could be interesting, and would fit the WW2 theme. Just like when Germany attacked London at the end of the war with the missiles.

Wow, this is a very interesting idea! I think it might be interesting to have the final weapon not be a "hold for turn to win" but more of an overwhelming bonus. It might result is some awesome Armageddon situations if two players get there at the same time!

However, it could also make this project start getting unwieldy.

[yeti_c]

That is an interesting option. Making the bomb technology able to attack any part of the map would be too powerful (unless we place this tech in place of the winning tech) but making the bomb technology able to attack only the cities could be interesting, and would fit the WW2 theme. Just like when Germany attacked London at the end of the war with the missiles.

Wow, this is a very interesting idea! I think it might be interesting to have the final weapon not be a "hold for turn to win" but more of an overwhelming bonus. It might result is some awesome Armageddon situations if two players get there at the same time!

However, it could also make this project start getting unwieldy.

It also means that someone can't just Win - without you being able to stop it - most Objectives at least have the option to stop the player holding it.

C.

[OliverFA]

That is an interesting option. Making the bomb technology able to attack any part of the map would be too powerful (unless we place this tech in place of the winning tech) but making the bomb technology able to attack only the cities could be interesting, and would fit the WW2 theme. Just like when Germany attacked London at the end of the war with the missiles.

Wow, this is a very interesting idea! I think it might be interesting to have the final weapon not be a "hold for turn to win" but more of an overwhelming bonus. It might result is some awesome Armageddon situations if two players get there at the same time!

However, it could also make this project start getting unwieldy.

It also means that someone can't just Win - without you being able to stop it - most Objectives at least have the option to stop the player holding it.

C.

In the case that we chose to use an overwhelming bonus instead of just a "hold one turn to win" obective, it could still be stopped via the saboteur technology.

My concern with that option is that the player with the overwhelming bonus would have to kill everyone else manually, which could make that part of the game boring for him.

[yeti_c]

In the case that we chose to use an overwhelming bonus instead of just a "hold one turn to win" obective, it could still be stopped via the saboteur technology.

My concern with that option is that the player with the overwhelming bonus would have to kill everyone else manually, which could make that part of the game boring for him.

And also - would have to be made possible of course...

C.

[SuicidalSnowman]

My concern with that option is that the player with the overwhelming bonus would have to kill everyone else manually, which could make that part of the game boring for him.

This is never boring for me

I am just thinking that as cool as this idea is, it means re-balancing everything and completely readjusting the map, I would be more inclined for simplier, better gameplay.

[Emperor_Metalman]

That is an interesting option. Making the bomb technology able to attack any part of the map would be too powerful (unless we place this tech in place of the winning tech) but making the bomb technology able to attack only the cities could be interesting, and would fit the WW2 theme. Just like when Germany attacked London at the end of the war with the missiles.

Wow, this is a very interesting idea! I think it might be interesting to have the final weapon not be a "hold for turn to win" but more of an overwhelming bonus. It might result is some awesome Armageddon situations if two players get there at the same time!

However, it could also make this project start getting unwieldy.

It also means that someone can't just Win - without you being able to stop it - most Objectives at least have the option to stop the player holding it.

C.

In the case that we chose to use an overwhelming bonus instead of just a "hold one turn to win" obective, it could still be stopped via the saboteur technology.

My concern with that option is that the player with the overwhelming bonus would have to kill everyone else manually, which could make that part of the game boring for him.

One of the things I dislike about large maps such as World 2.1 is killing off all the players after securing a win.


Having an automatic win would be better.

[max is gr8]

I was considering, is there any way for a trigger, e.g. taking an opponents city, that could give all units to the capturer, I know that isn't an option currently but it would reconstruct war.

[Geger]

Hm... interesting idea with research concept. After reading the 1st post I had some ideas, and read all pages but all ideas are suggested before except this one : to prevent ppl to do research only

As said :

Personally - I would like Bottom right or Bottom left or Top Right... they have the ability to protect their whole "kingdom" with 3 squares - and can quite happily build/research in "peace".

Don't you think this can be too defensive ??

My idea :
Make some territories as mines of resources. We can do a research only if we own the resource. Maybe 4 mines for each type of research.
To make a bit complicated, we have to own 1 mine of a resource to do basic research and 2 mines of a resource to do advanced research.

I think this can make the game more interesting in the start and middle phases or at least the big map is more attractive (not only blank)

.

[Qwert]

i dont see any territory names on these map.

[SuicidalSnowman]

My idea :
Make some territories as mines of resources. We can do a research only if we own the resource. Maybe 4 mines for each type of research.
To make a bit complicated, we have to own 1 mine of a resource to do basic research and 2 mines of a resource to do advanced research.

I think this can make the game more interesting in the start and middle phases or at least the big map is more attractive (not only blank)

This, actually, sounds like a great idea, but I do not think this map can hold anymore territories or additional rules.

But that is a great idea. Maybe for a four player maximum version...

[max is gr8]

Click image to enlarge.

Bumping IMG

and thinking that instead of naming it reinforcements name the thing weaponry then it would mke sense to have resources

[OliverFA]

Hey guys! thanks you all for your comments. I am placing an update of the map later today. I will be also answering your comments.

Thanks again!

[OliverFA]

Time for an update!

Following your kind suggestions, we are cuting down the number of players from 8 to 6. That's how the map looks with only 6 labs.



Now we need to decide which two cities need to go from the map. That's why we have the cities named from 1 to 8. My personal preferences are to remove cities numbers 3 and 4, because they are in the middle of the map, and removing them would leave the six surviving cities in the "corners" of the map.

However, I would love to learn your opinion about which cities should be the ones to go. Maybe there are better candidates than 3 and 4. Please, post your suggestions if you are so kind. Thanks in advance!

Also, if you want to create your own placement for all 6 cities, you can find the blank map and the cities here

[Qwert]

by qwert on Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:18 am

i dont see any territory names on these map.

These supose to be map for 8 players not 6 players.

[OliverFA]

by qwert on Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:18 am

i dont see any territory names on these map.

These supose to be map for 8 players not 6 players.

Hello qwert. I just post a poll to choose which two cities should be removed in order to make the map a 6 players map. You are welcome to voice your opinion

About territory names, we still have to decide. But the idea is to name the regions surrounding the cities as "CityName #1", "CityName #2", etc. And for the rest of the map to choose some important mountain/lake/river and name the surrounding territories after it.

[reggie_mac]

I like the idea of this map, its going to be epic to play on. But making it a max of 6 citys / 'tech trees'?

Game type flexibility. The map should support various game types and not be designed with specific/limited game settings in mind (standard, assassin, fog of war, 2 players, etc.).

Kind of a bit outside where it needs to be going, unless there are changes afoot im not aware of. So in an 8 player game, then 2 people are automatically at a disadvantage as they have no 'tech tree'

Which tehn brings the following into account

Balanced play. It should be unlikely that one or more players can start the game with a major advantage as a result of the initial drop or getting the first turn.
Reasonable bonus structure. Bonuses should make sense given the size/style of the map, and be based on a consistent formula.