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Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [Cleared]

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Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [Cleared]

Postby BBoz on Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:28 am

Accused:

gordito
snakedoctor

The accused are suspected of:

Conducting Secret Diplomacy
Other: Brothers working together. Specifically in the game listed below, but they appear to have a track record of similar activity in other Public games.

Game number(s):

Game 3272604

Comments:
Gordito and Snakedoctor are clearly working together. Leaving their rear flanks open to each other, not fortifying their neighboring positions or taking obvious territory gaining plays with almost no risk. Focussing on other players when their best strategic play is against each other. Both admit they are brothers mid-way through the game.

Prior game history (for Public games) shows they tend to do the same thing in their public games. Tacit alliances.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby ManBungalow on Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:00 pm

It does seem very suspicious and it will be very hard to find evidence to protect them with such solid proof. Maybe we could ban them from playing against each other? They could be allowed same-team games, and 1 on 1 games of course.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby gordito on Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:19 pm

BBoz wrote:Accused:

gordito
snakedoctor

The accused are suspected of:

Conducting Secret Diplomacy
Other: Brothers working together. Specifically in the game listed below, but they appear to have a track record of similar activity in other Public games.

Game number(s):

Game 3272604

Comments:
Gordito and Snakedoctor are clearly working together. Leaving their rear flanks open to each other, not fortifying their neighboring positions or taking obvious territory gaining plays with almost no risk. Focussing on other players when their best strategic play is against each other. Both admit they are brothers mid-way through the game.

Prior game history (for Public games) shows they tend to do the same thing in their public games. Tacit alliances.



I want you to prove ANY of this -(besides us being brothers that is)- and I mentioned that we were brothers in passing, I told him to join the tournament, not to BE IN THE SAME GAME as me. Besides we play in alot of games with and against each other - BBoz is just pissed because he attacked me because i had a 'big' stack of armies and i offered snake a truce in the public chat - BBoz wiped out those armies and offered the same truce to snake, that backfired on BBoz because he weakened himself too much and was taken out of the game . . . mad that he was eliminated he saw conspiracy and started complaining - i in the mean time built up my armies so i would survive. They call that cheating - i call it preservation of self. If the moderators have ??? then just ask. As i said we play together and against each other all the time - many 1 on 1 and in groups - im trying to get him in my clan so we can play clan tourneys together. My cousin chemefreak is in my clan and also play many games with and against each other. There never was a secret there. All of our game strategies are different, and we all play to win. You cant show one other game where we are working together, except dubs games.

All this comes from a sore looser, too bad you feel this way BBoz - like i said i've played 1700 games and you not even 400. You need more experience !

We have played 105 games together (total - partners or against each other) - find 1 where we cheated - you cant because we don't.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby BBoz on Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:29 pm

Gordito -

I am basing my report on observations in the game. Game 3272604

1) You immediately tried to establish a border agreement with Snake.
2) When I attacked you, your response was to encourage snake to take me out.
3) While you and Snake did not share a border, you again suggested a border agreement. (neither of these accepted in chat by Snake, but you both appear to have one in practice)
4) For a while now, Snake has had many territs with single armies touching your territories with 10+ armies. On borders with other players, Snake maintains an equivalent army build up in comparison with his neighbor, 6,8,10 armies. But with you, only a single army. Clearly he isn't too worried about you coming in on him.
5) You have had many times in the game where you could have gained a bonus for yourself while taking a bonus from Snake without any substantial risk. (i.e. taking 1 territory with 1 army on it with connecting territs only having single armies as well). You fail to take advantage of these situations and when confronted seem to make a point of only taking enough to show an effort while ensuring you leave Snake with a bonus. (like in the last turn, you took 2 spots of his, but left him with a flush bonus that would have only required attacking a single territ with 1 army on it, you had 13 armies there). With that bonus, he built up his border with another neighbor and left his borders with you at 1 army.)

I wasn't the only one to notice the oddity of this behavior.

Whether you have an actual agreed to secret alliance or are just playing the game for your mutual benefit, the effect is the same. 2 Players who are playing using tactics to avoid attacking each other and focus on other players. These are the exact actions I would expect 2 players with a secret alliance to behave in a game.

Your comments about number of games played is irrelevant. 400 is plenty of games played. You play tons of little 1vs1 games. I could say I am the more experienced player because I have been a member longer than you have. But again, irrelevant. How you play is what matters.

While you have a lot of games, most of them are either private or some sort of team games. Clearly in team games you should work together (maybe it's just a habit now). And in private games, I could care less what you do. So lets look at the normal, Standard / Terminator, Public games that you and Snake have played in together. Here they are...

Game 1273743 - Gordito
Game 1207483 - Gordito
Game 1207473 - Someone Else
Game 1082189 - Gordito
Game 1008333 - Gordito (In this game, Snake even says he will help Gordito wipe out the rest of the players)
Game 675681 - Someone Else (Gordito and Snake gang up on one of the players. The player they don't gang up on end up wins)
Game 675665 - Gordito (3-Player game, hard to judge, but Snake and Gordito take out the other guy first)
Game 672252 - Someone Else (large Map, Gordito and Snake split apart)

These are really the only ones that matter because they are the only ones that are public and where you aren't on the same team as Snake.
For the Record, you won 62% of the time in these games, higher than your current 51% average.

In my opinion, when you look at the play in these games, it seems clear that in most of them you are both focused on other players, mostly to the exclusion of each other. In one, 1008333 Snake even says he will just help you wipe out the rest of the players. In some, the players even complain about you two ganging up on people.

I don't know if it's your intention or not, but when you two play in the same game, you tend to avoid any substantive encounters with each other until you have both wiped out the rest of the players. This in effect, even if not in verbal agreement, has the result of an unfair advantage and looks to the rest of the players in the game to be a secret alliance.

As to the "sore loser" comment... Simply untrue. Read the text of our game. I have expressed displeasure in what I saw as an alliance. Win or lose, I hate when other people cheat or work together giving themselves an unfair advantage. I am happy to win or lose in any game that is a fair game.

I think anyone reading the comments in the first game will also see that I was direct about my issue, but tempered in my discussion about it while Gordito took every opportunity to try and get in digs or jabs at me. I think this just serves to reflect on the type of person he is.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby DAT_WAT_SHE_SAID on Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:54 pm

piss of gordito wudnt cheat.its obvious becoz of his rank.hes a major, plays like a major.Is a major.if he cheated, he wud be colonel.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby Jeff Hardy on Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:08 am

DAT_WAT_SHE_SAID wrote:piss of gordito wudnt cheat.its obvious becoz of his rank.hes a major, plays like a major.Is a major.if he cheated, he wud be colonel.

a lot of people play like majors but arent
him being good doesnt mean he doesnt cheat
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby DAT_WAT_SHE_SAID on Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:11 am

ima just saying that if u saw some guy who is really out of place in ranks, u would wonder.but this guy isnt
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby Lindax on Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:33 am

Sounds to me like there wasn't anything "secret" going on.... And tournament games do often involve odd tactics.

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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby BBoz on Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:24 am

Lindax wrote:Sounds to me like there wasn't anything "secret" going on.... And tournament games do often involve odd tactics.

.


There isn't anything special about this tournament to warrant odd tactics. And the only reason it isn't "secret" is because he's been called out on it.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby BBoz on Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:03 am

DAT_WAT_SHE_SAID wrote:ima just saying that if u saw some guy who is really out of place in ranks, u would wonder.but this guy isnt


I think your thoughts on this matter might be slightly biased since you belong to the same "Clan" as the accused. The same is also true for Lindax above too.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby Lindax on Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:57 pm

Does that mean I can't think straight?

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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance (but obvious)

Postby BBoz on Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:35 am

Lindax wrote:Does that mean I can't think straight?

.


No, it means your opinion might be colored by your connection to Gordito. Anyone considering your input should be aware of this.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby chemefreak on Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:30 am

Wow, this is ridiculous. I have played plenty of games with these two and they always do their best to kill each other. Plus, the only collusion I see was announced in the chat at the very beginning...which is completely legal. I hope they are cleared soon...this is stupid. But at least now I know to add BBoz to my foe list! ;)
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby Jeff Hardy on Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:52 am

chemefreak wrote:Wow, this is ridiculous. I have played plenty of games with these two and they always do their best to kill each other. Plus, the only collusion I see was announced in the chat at the very beginning...which is completely legal. I hope they are cleared soon...this is stupid. But at least now I know to add BBoz to my foe list! ;)

another biased person...
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby BBoz on Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:08 pm

chemefreak wrote:Wow, this is ridiculous. I have played plenty of games with these two and they always do their best to kill each other. Plus, the only collusion I see was announced in the chat at the very beginning...which is completely legal. I hope they are cleared soon...this is stupid. But at least now I know to add BBoz to my foe list! ;)


It's great you guys are coming to support your clan-mates. I am just basing my point on how they played the game. If you watched the game from the beginning you will see that they were at least acting like they were partners. Leaving their borders with each other undefended, leaving each other their bonuses, etc...

Not sure why they played like this... Maybe habit from all the doubles games they play, but their play was the same as one would expect from 2 people who had a secret alliance. Since I can't tell how people communicate behind the scenes, all I can do is say that the play in this game has been extremely questionable. The same kind of play I would expect to see from 2 players with a secret alliance.

In my opinion, a warning or notation on the account would be sufficient this time. If it was just a misunderstanding, then so be it. If it's not and they play continue to play in a questionable / alliance type of way in public games in the future, then a notation will be on their account for a more serious look at their activities.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby BBoz on Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:51 pm

These guys are unbelievable... Last turn Snake knocks down hard (at his own expense) the biggest competition to brother Gordito in the game. Game 3272604 Gordito is the top dog in the game. Most armies, largest bonus.

Snake goes after Teal-Paul912 and Green-ttblanch making it so teal is significantly hurt and green is fatally wounded (brother Gordito sweeps in and knocks green out). Snake ends with singles on all his territories, about 6, effectively suiciding himself to help brother Gordito by knocking down fatally and critically, his biggest competition.

With these kinds of plays, how can they not being working together?
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby MOBAJOBG on Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:14 pm

I've played a total of 39 1vs1 games on New World map and guess what? I've only lost 1 game and that is to gordito. 'nuff said.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby BBoz on Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:37 pm

MOBAJOBG wrote:I've played a total of 39 1vs1 games on New World map and guess what? I've only lost 1 game and that is to gordito. 'nuff said.


That doesn't prove his brother isn't helping him in a game with more than 1 player. 1vs1 gameplay is very different than playing against 5 other people.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby LFAW on Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:16 pm

Lol Moba, talking crap again are we?
Nuff said.

And by all means call me biased, but Gordito is an honourable player, these allegations are false.

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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby BBoz on Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:52 pm

Here are some stats for you to gnaw on a bit...

I looked at games w/Gordito for the last 2 months... Public, Tournament and Private Non-Team games (without Snake)

Games w/only Gordito
Tournament/Public: Wins: 14 Losses: 81 <15% win ratio
Private: Wins: 3 Losses: 30 10% win Ratio

Games w/Gordito and Snake:
Public:: Wins: 5 Losses: 4 win Ratio 55%
Private: Wins: 3 for Snake 0 for Gordito Losses: 1 Win Ratio 75%
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby gordito on Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:06 pm

BBoz wrote:Here are some stats for you to gnaw on a bit...

I looked at games w/Gordito for the last 2 months... Public, Tournament and Private Non-Team games (without Snake)

Games w/only Gordito
Tournament/Public: Wins: 14 Losses: 81 <15% win ratio
Private: Wins: 3 Losses: 30 10% win Ratio

Games w/Gordito and Snake:
Public:: Wins: 5 Losses: 4 win Ratio 55%
Private: Wins: 3 for Snake 0 for Gordito Losses: 1 Win Ratio 75%



No offense but those stats dont even make sense - i can make numbers say anything i want - i did go to college !!

and besides i hardly even play with snake anymore - 1 or 2 games in a month, i think I always win against him anyway - never going to admit that i loose to my younger bro. KISS MY ASS SNAKE !!

as for this game in question, fellas - it's over because i kicked everyones ass, just lucky - good rolls ect . . not because anyone helped me - he played bad, too bad for him - i do agree that this map sucks, definatley not a favorite of mine - (i know you had input on its creation BBoz, no offense - i just dont like it) I have never cheated, i am not a child and i resent that you brought all this up in the first place. Just swallow your defeat and move on with your life. Snake did attack me and lost then suicided - i dont know why - thats not cheating just a bad play.

Thanks to ALL of those great people who chimed in and agree with me in saying that this is stupid and a waste of my time you yours for having to read this b.s.

Thanks again for your support
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby gordito on Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:10 pm

MOBAJOBG wrote:I've played a total of 39 1vs1 games on New World map and guess what? I've only lost 1 game and that is to gordito. 'nuff said.



Thanks MOBA :D

I didn't know that - that's awesome for us both !! =D> congrats to u - great accomplishment !!

too bad BBoz didn't play me on that map - there would be ANOTHER post in this crazy forum saying i had a secret alliance in a 1 vs. 1 game :lol: :lol: :lol:

Love ya man - G.
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby BBoz on Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:21 pm

gordito wrote:No offense but those stats dont even make sense - i can make numbers say anything i want - i did go to college !!

Obviously not for math.... Let me explain statistics a little bit. Those statistics show that when you play with your brother in the same game, you win roughly 4-5 times more often than when you play without him in the game. Somethin' is going on.

gordito wrote:Snake did attack me and lost then suicided - i dont know why - thats not cheating just a bad play.

Ummm... it sorta is.. He attacked you and didn't do so well, so since he couldn't win, he decides to cripple 2 other players on the map so you can win? Sure sounds like he was wanting big brother to win the map since he couldn't. Plus, if he attacked you and lost, how did he have enough armies to cripple one player and fatally wound another?

gordito wrote:Just swallow your defeat and move on

I don't really care that I lost. I care that you two tend to gang up on others or play so at least one of you wins the game when you play in the same game. [-X
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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby gordito on Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:50 pm

BBoz wrote:Obviously not for math.... Let me explain statistics a little bit. Those statistics show that when you play with your brother in the same game, you win roughly 4-5 times more often than when you play without him in the game. Somethin' is going on.


Thanks for the insult !!

I did a little counting for myself - out of all my 1700 + games, i've played 104 with snake (either, 1on1, dubs, trips, quads) and I (we) have only won 51 of those, therefor thats not quite 50% - so weather I'm playing with or against him i win HALF the time - thats average right - you either win or loose. According to your stats i should be a COOK not a Major with 51% win raito

"I've won 14 with 81 losses in Pub/Tournaments = COOK
I've won 3 lost 30 in private = COOK
I've won 0 and lost 3 to snake = COOK"

and those numbers you quoted aren't even correct !! :lol:

what the F is this bullshit dude - ? and who taught you how to use a calculator ??
You get REAL numbers and EXPLAIN them to all the STUPID people out here like ME and maybe I'll listen, at least it would be entertaining !!

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Re: Gordito and Snakedoctor - Secret Alliance [pending]

Postby BBoz on Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:25 pm

Your statistics are off because you don't use logic when applying them. #-o

1) You have to exclude 1v1 games where you and Snake play each other. With only one opponent, you have to play against him.
2) You have to exclude Doubles, Triples and Quads games when you guys are on the same team. You are already playing together as a team, so any analysis of these games is worthless in determining if you guys work together in non-team games to beat other players.

So, the only games you look at are ones where you two play in the same game with more than two people where you and Snakedoctor are adversaries.

If you compare those games to similar games where Snakedoctor isn't an adversary, your WIN percentage when you both play in the same game is unusually high by comparison.

Put simply... By having Snakedoctor as an adversary in a game with you and other opponents, you are 4-5 times more likely to win the game than if you were playing against multiple opponents without Snake in the game.

Whether you want to admit it or not, when you play with your brother, you guys tend to gang up on the other players in the game and avoid attacking or doing damage to each other.
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