jonesthecurl, share your views

[Napoleon Ier]

Putting forward your opinions in a deliberately provocative manner may be bad manners at times. It may reveal you to be unlikeable.
And it may degenerate into simple name-calling.
But that's still different to trolling, which as I understand it means putting forward a point of view which you don't hold, making it so extreme as to produce outrage.

Was Socrates a troll?

[Nikolai]

Nay... Socrates was a troll-hater. Witness his attacks on the Sophists.

[Napoleon Ier]

Nay... Socrates was a troll-hater. Witness his attacks on the Sophists.

But he was a stinging gadfly who tried to whip up debate, whereas anyone challenging the orthodoxy of Jones' airy-fairy PC world of happy ethnic social workers is in his view, a "troll".

[Snorri1234]

Putting forward your opinions in a deliberately provocative manner may be bad manners at times. It may reveal you to be unlikeable.
And it may degenerate into simple name-calling.
But that's still different to trolling, which as I understand it means putting forward a point of view which you don't hold, making it so extreme as to produce outrage.

Was Socrates a troll?

Yes. But a hilarious one at that.

[jonesthecurl]

Nappy you manage to show that, while you have a great capacity for inventing long sentences, you have little for comprehending even short ones.
Here's what I suggested trolling is: "putting forward a point of view which you don't hold, making it so extreme as to produce outrage".
Here is what I specifically suggest is not trolling: "Putting forward your opinions in a deliberately provocative manner".


Actually, your comment (thank you) reveals another aspect of trolling which I hadn't previously described specifically: deliberately misrepresenting someone else's point of view so as to make it look more like something you can cope with refuting.

[jonesthecurl]

Socrates as I understand it was particularly good at appearing not to have a point of view, while making others question their own. In a way I suppose that this is almost the complete opposite of trolling. Although both methods might make a thoughtful person, at least, re-examine the fundamental basis for their beliefs.

e.g. "You can't say that, you effin troll!"

[thinks] can he? Why am I so sure he's wrong - better check some facts so I can refute him authoritatively

[Napoleon Ier]

Nappy you manage to show that, while you have a great capacity for inventing long sentences, you have little for comprehending even short ones.
Here's what I suggested trolling is: "putting forward a point of view which you don't hold, making it so extreme as to produce outrage".
Here is what I specifically suggest is not trolling: "Putting forward your opinions in a deliberately provocative manner".


Actually, your comment (thank you) reveals another aspect of trolling which I hadn't previously described specifically: deliberately misrepresenting someone else's point of view so as to make it look more like something you can cope with refuting.

So playing devil's advocate (which Socrates did do, if you read any of the three contemporaries who deigned comment on him) makes you a troll?

[Thor Son of Olaf]

It's called the Strawman Fallacy, idiot.

[Snorri1234]

So playing devil's advocate (which Socrates did do, if you read any of the three contemporaries who deigned comment on him) makes you a troll?

If I listen to some other people on this forum, then yes.

Hell, you can even defend something you believe in and still be called a troll.

[Jenos Ridan]

Actually, your comment (thank you) reveals another aspect of trolling which I hadn't previously described specifically: deliberately misrepresenting someone else's point of view so as to make it look more like something you can cope with refuting.

So playing devil's advocate (which Socrates did do, if you read any of the three contemporaries who deigned comment on him) makes you a troll?

As Thor said, rather bluntly, it is called the Strawman Argument.

[Juan_Bottom]

Juan_Bottom's leaving-----did it make you question your faith in humanity?

[jonesthecurl]

Actually, your comment (thank you) reveals another aspect of trolling which I hadn't previously described specifically: deliberately misrepresenting someone else's point of view so as to make it look more like something you can cope with refuting.

So playing devil's advocate (which Socrates did do, if you read any of the three contemporaries who deigned comment on him) makes you a troll?

As Thor said, rather bluntly, it is called the Strawman Argument.

I have heard the phrase before ( though only rarely outside these fora).
It seems that this phrase describes a situation in which one doesn't really bother to listen to/read what an adversay has said/written, but merely assumes that the adversary has opined in in line with the most extreme opinion ever put forward by persons that the opponent sounds a bit like.

eg you libs all think Obama is christ, you christians are all creationists.

This isn't quite the same thing as the particular post by Nappy which I was referring to.(OK maybe I should have been more specific).

IN this, he accused me of calling anyone who didn't share my "airy-fairy PC world of happy ethnic social workers" worldview a troll.

Not only was he wrong in his assumptions about my worldview (good strawman example) But he (deliberately?) assigned to me a definition completely opposite to the one I'd just given. This is beyond strawman, this is windmill-tilting.

[Jenos Ridan]

I've always understood strawmaning as making a weaker version of someone else's argument so it is easier for you to knock down.

In other words, "deliberately misrepresenting someone else's point of view so as to make it look more like something you can cope with refuting."
--jonesthecurl

[jonesthecurl]

Fair enough, it's just semantics. Let's agree that "doing the strawman" (dance video out next week) is automatically trolling.

[jonesthecurl]

Juan_Bottom's leaving-----did it make you question your faith in humanity?

No, mate - but Juan_Bottom's return strengthened it.

Jolly good to hear from you again, old boy!

[pimpdave]

Juan_Bottom's leaving-----did it make you question your faith in humanity?

No, mate - but Juan_Bottom's return strengthened it.

Jolly good to hear from you again, old boy!

Yes, yes, I know that this thread is not entitled, "pimpdave, share your views", but I must share my view.

Juan, I share jonesthecurl's view on this matter (which he has shared) and I wanted to share that with you.

That is all.

[pimpdave]

Mr. Thecurl,

Please share your views.

Disney Cartoons vs. Looney Tunes: Which is better and why?

[jonesthecurl]

Mr. Thecurl,

Please share your views.

Disney Cartoons vs. Looney Tunes: Which is better and why?

This view will be shared (at tedious length) when I return from being Albert Petersen, Cheerful Clever Manager.

[jonesthecurl]

Mr. Thecurl,

Please share your views.

Disney Cartoons vs. Looney Tunes: Which is better and why?

This view will be shared (at tedious length) when I return from being Albert Petersen, Cheerful Clever Manager.

I just spent about twenty minutes typing a detailed reply and nudged some button I didn't mean to - at which point it all somehow disappeared.
I'll try agin later.

Clues: Chuck Jones, Mel Blanc, Tex Avery: each one a genius in my opinion.

[Juan_Bottom]

Clues: Chuck Jones, Mel Blanc, Tex Avery: each one a genius in my opinion.

YES! I knew you wouldn't let me down!
Thank goodness you're not a tool.
You know-the lesson of the line vs the squiggle changed my life. Thank-you Mr. Chuck Jones.

[jonesthecurl]

To answer more fully: in the world of cartoon shorts, Looney Toons rules. Disney did some interesting, and some artistic, shorts - but never matched the manic humour of Bugs Bunny, Speedy Gonzales, ROadrunner, Yosemite Sam and the crew.

Few things in the universe are as awesome as Wagner's "Kill the Wabbit" from "What's Opera Doc?". ANd what hunting season is it anyway?

Disney on the other hand are the king of something Warner never really got the hang of - movie-length cartoons. They also made some dreadful dreadful cack that they should be lined up and shot for.

Hall of Awesome:

Peter Pan: despite muckin about with the plot (eg Why a bomb instead of poison?), a beautiful thing. I didn't buy this one for the kids. I bought it for ME. Did you ever notice that in the movie, all the action takes place in one night -so the "dream" explanation can work? - the only evidence at the end is the cloud-galleon that Mr Darling thinks he recognises. One of the most touching moments in all moviedom.

Jungle Book: again, Kipling would probably not approve - but any movie that includes "Bare Necessities" and most especially "I Wanna be Like YOu" cannot fail but be a classic.

Snow White: the animation is just utterly utterly stunning. There is nothing, just nothing to compare.

Hall of Shame

All of these are where they have taken a classic tale and frankly just shat upon it. Little wonder that Tolkien told his heirs "Never let Disney get hold of it!"

Alice in Wonderland. One of the world's most sublime stories, full of an enchanting and unique magic. Absolutely none of which survives to the screen, in one of Disney's dullest outings ever. Shame on them.

Adventures of Mr Toad (or whatever they called their version of Wind in the WIllows.) How, how could you miss the point so badly?

and above all, my blood boiling as I even contemplate the idea of recalling the slightest detail of it...

The Black Cauldron. One of the best books by one of my all-time favourite authors. WTF did they think they were doing? Hen Wen cute and cuddly? Or...no, I can't go on. I'm beginning to remember too clearly...


Finally, the biggest disappointment was Disney's final full-length traditional cartoon - Home on the Range. It was OK, inoffensive, but this was the very last one. They should have made it at least as good as say Robin Hood.

[Nikolai]

Good call on the cartoon shorts. I just watched "What's Opera, Doc?" the other day... actually I think I mentioned it here, somewhere... and it's really, really epic.

Also, might I nominate for your Hall of Awesome Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame? It deserves to make the list if only for the soundtrack. And while I consider the villain to be not much shucks generally, his song in Hellfire woven through with the Mea Culpa is absolutely one of the best musical moments in animated movies I've ever seen, Pixar notwithstanding.

[jonesthecurl]

The one I never liked was Pepe le Pew.

Did you see the one where he fancied a lady cat and she somehow got stripes so he thought she was a skunk too?

Oh yeah, that was all of em.

[Juan_Bottom]

Oh yeah, that was all of em.

You just inadvertantly slapped Willey E. Coyote/the Road Runner in the face there.

[jonesthecurl]

I know what you mean, but to me it's like rap and the blues: rap all sounds the same to me and I hate it, the blues has, 90% of the time, the same tune and I love it.

I love the variety of ways in which Coyote gets creamed. Roadunner himself is not actually that interesting a character, if you can call him a character at all, but every time I shoot myslef in the foot, I sigh and think of myself a W. E. C. !

IN fact, the way I'm performing in various games at the moment, my username shoulda been WEC...