Treasures of Galápagos [Quenched]

[Crissipos]

I personally thing that 3 guys on the 1 lugger is a huge problem. If your playing a 2 or 3 player game, and your not by that spot you lose. Seeing as if u hold a lugger once you basicly have won the game, if your playing with a small amount of players. Starting with 3 reefs, and getting 1 lugger gives u 9 men... plus with u being able to attack every other lugger u can stop anyone else from getting 1 and grow your power quickly.



If it was a 8 player game, sure some players would fight for it, but there is 1 reef that you have 2 go through 10 men how unfair is that?

i'd thought that the way the number of armies were split into neutrals was quiet fair and that everyone had the same opportunity if they chose to take it.
There are 8 reef (starting positions) and 8 luggers. Perhaps you took a wrong turn and made a bad decision about which lugger to get.
each reef is 10 neutrals away from a watering hole which together with the reef holds the highest bonus.
If players want to get to a lugger and wipe you out, then that is the nature of the game.

so should a game be decided in round 3 already? people don't go for a watering hole in this one, they take the luggers because that is how you win this game, first one to get a lugger wins

[cairnswk]

I personally thing that 3 guys on the 1 lugger is a huge problem. If your playing a 2 or 3 player game, and your not by that spot you lose. Seeing as if u hold a lugger once you basicly have won the game, if your playing with a small amount of players. Starting with 3 reefs, and getting 1 lugger gives u 9 men... plus with u being able to attack every other lugger u can stop anyone else from getting 1 and grow your power quickly.



If it was a 8 player game, sure some players would fight for it, but there is 1 reef that you have 2 go through 10 men how unfair is that?

i'd thought that the way the number of armies were split into neutrals was quiet fair and that everyone had the same opportunity if they chose to take it.
There are 8 reef (starting positions) and 8 luggers. Perhaps you took a wrong turn and made a bad decision about which lugger to get.
each reef is 10 neutrals away from a watering hole which together with the reef holds the highest bonus.
If players want to get to a lugger and wipe you out, then that is the nature of the game.

so should a game be decided in round 3 already? people don't go for a watering hole in this one, they take the luggers because that is how you win this game, first one to get a lugger wins

perhaps not....but so far as expressed by edbeard we need more people coming into here saying the map is unbalanced. and so far only three people have offered that.

[edbeard]

well edboard, you can already see the problem by only seeing the starting neutrals already, without playing

crisopiss, we can only see that there's less armies on that territory. that doesn't tell us anything. results of numerous games actually tells us something


we need to see if having staring positions in that area really affects the play. changing something before knowing whether it's a real problem is not a good way to make sure a map is balanced. sometimes you'll be right. sometimes you'll create more problems. making sure you know that there is a problem and what it is exactly before going out and implementing solutions is the best way to go about this

[cairnswk]

well edboard, you can already see the problem by only seeing the starting neutrals already, without playing

crisopiss, we can only see that there's less armies on that territory. that doesn't tell us anything. results of numerous games actually tells us something


we need to see if having staring positions in that area really affects the play. changing something before knowing whether it's a real problem is not a good way to make sure a map is balanced. sometimes you'll be right. sometimes you'll create more problems. making sure you know that there is a problem and what it is exactly before going out and implementing solutions is the best way to go about this

Thanks edbeard for stopping me from rushing in....a couple of speed games i have had and witnessed are correct about 1v1 games getting the luggers and winning seem to be correct.
but i will hold out further until there is more discussion about this....so a few players may get a few advantaged games...that i can live with.

[pissedoffsol]

This map is impossible.

I NEVER left the 3 reef starting point throughout my entire match.

after round 1, if you don't get out, you're 100% done.

The -1 on start would be fine... IF you started with more than 3 on it.


I probably won't be playing this map again. Everyone i've played with so far has the same setiment.

[Crissipos]

This map is impossible.

I NEVER left the 3 reef starting point throughout my entire match.

after round 1, if you don't get out, you're 100% done.

The -1 on start would be fine... IF you started with more than 3 on it.


I probably won't be playing this map again. Everyone i've played with so far has the same setiment.

lol

[rom_tobins]

Alright here is a quick over go of my 21 finished games


4 games lost starting by reef 2 or 3 (3 of witch were my first games on that map)

9 win starting by reef 2 or 3

6 loss starting else where

2 win else where


Of these games so of witch other players did start by reef 2 or 3, if we both did there was a fight over the lugger, an if you held it you won. Ofcourse some of these games are based on how the dice went....1 game i only conquered 1 territory before i lost. Another game by the time i got to my closest lugger, the other player managed to get a watering hole. I've seen 3 games so far that a player starting at reef 2 or 3 has managed to take the lugger with 3 men on it in the very first turn, 2 of the times it was me another some 1 else. These games were also mainly 1 on 1, with a few 3 players, and 1 4 player.

But from look at my games you can see that 9 out of my 11 wins i was by the lugger with 3 men, and 6 out of 10 losses i wasn't by them. I don;t know if we should count my first two games though...as the first 1 i went for a watering hole, the 2nd i hadn't relized luggers could attack each other...but i likely wouldn;t have 1 that either...Though i'm fairly confident after alot more games, these numbers will keep growing in differance...

[ZeroDJoe]

congrats cairns
i love the desing, the general idea and the gameplay
i thikn the main problem as it is seem s to be the lugger bonus with huge advantage for whomever gets it first, maybe just changing the lugger+snorker to +1 instead of +2 would take care of that, and maybe the treasures could be +2 instead of +1 for even more bonus options...
the lugger with 3 wont be a prob if the bonus r adjusted i think
great work

[kmhebert]

This map is a LOT of fun. I do feel that it is somewhat unbalanced, basically whoever gets the first lugger will win. If you get one, even if the other player gets one on their turn the odds of them being able to capture yours is extremely low. But then, on the next turn, the odds of you capturing their lugger is very high. And once you have taken their lugger, you have a very high percentage to capture their reef. The next turn, they will have a tiny chance of capturing a lugger, but pretty much zero chance of capturing any of your luggers. You will get a ton of armies that next turn and pretty much wipe them out at your leisure. So it feels unbalanced. On the other hand, it's also a lot of fun. So maybe it isn't a problem. I am wondering if a +1 bonus autodeploy on the reef (instead of -1 penalty) would even things up a bit. I will play a bunch more games on this, one thing I can say is this is an awesome concept. A lot of fun to play. And I also want to say, I think the graphic design of this particular map is the best on Conquer Club I have seen so far. I have played all the maps a bunch of times and I like the visual look of this one tremendously. Great job, it may need some slight variation for the bonus structure but frankly this map is a fantastic achievement. Well done!

[daveandstine]

Just adding my data to the pile...

First, thanks to Cairns for his work on this map, and all around the site...CC is much richer and more fun because he's around, regardless of any complaints.

Second, in a three-player game, player X conquered an ocean, player Y conquered an ocean, and player Z conquered an ocean and a lugger. That was round one, and at the end of it, the bonuses were 3, 3, and 10, respectively. In round two, players X and Y conquered one more territory each (sea for X, island for Y), and player Z was able to conquer an island and a fresh water. At the end of round two, the bonuses were 3, 4, and 20, respectively.

We're still playing, so I don't know the end result, but I can take a guess.

One more quick observation...some have suggested a +1 to the reefs. In a five player game, where everyone starts with one reef, it's quite possible to be stuck on your starting tile for the first 3-4 rounds. You deploy 3 for a total of 5, attack the 2 neutrals, lose 2, and end your turn. Then you repeat. Pretty slow way to begin a game.

Cheers, and good luck on the battlefield.

*Update*
At the end of round three, the game bonuses I mentioned above are now 3, 4, and 58!

[cairnswk]

....If it was a 8 player game, sure some players would fight for it, but there is 1 reef that you have 2 go through 10 men how unfair is that?

....
so should a game be decided in round 3 already? people don't go for a watering hole in this one, they take the luggers because that is how you win this game, first one to get a lugger wins

...I NEVER left the 3 reef starting point throughout my entire match.
after round 1, if you don't get out, you're 100% done.
The -1 on start would be fine... IF you started with more than 3 on it.
I probably won't be playing this map again. Everyone i've played with so far has the same setiment.

congrats cairns
i love the desing, the general idea and the gameplay
i thikn the main problem as it is seem s to be the lugger bonus with huge advantage for whomever gets it first, maybe just changing the lugger+snorker to +1 instead of +2 would take care of that, and maybe the treasures could be +2 instead of +1 for even more bonus options...
the lugger with 3 wont be a prob if the bonus r adjusted i think
great work

... I do feel that it is somewhat unbalanced, basically whoever gets the first lugger will win. If you get one, even if the other player gets one on their turn the odds of them being able to capture yours is extremely low. But then, on the next turn, the odds of you capturing their lugger is very high. And once you have taken their lugger, you have a very high percentage to capture their reef. The next turn, they will have a tiny chance of capturing a lugger, but pretty much zero chance of capturing any of your luggers. You will get a ton of armies that next turn and pretty much wipe them out at your leisure. So it feels unbalanced. On the other hand, it's also a lot of fun. So maybe it isn't a problem. I am wondering if a +1 bonus autodeploy on the reef (instead of -1 penalty) would even things up a bit. I will play a bunch more games on this, one thing I can say is this is an awesome concept. A lot of fun to play. And I also want to say, I think the graphic design of this particular map is the best on Conquer Club I have seen so far. I have played all the maps a bunch of times and I like the visual look of this one tremendously. Great job, it may need some slight variation for the bonus structure but frankly this map is a fantastic achievement. Well done!

Just adding my data to the pile...

First, thanks to Cairns for his work on this map, and all around the site...CC is much richer and more fun because he's around, regardless of any complaints.

Second, in a three-player game, player X conquered an ocean, player Y conquered an ocean, and player Z conquered an ocean and a lugger. That was round one, and at the end of it, the bonuses were 3, 3, and 10, respectively. In round two, players X and Y conquered one more territory each (sea for X, island for Y), and player Z was able to conquer an island and a fresh water. At the end of round two, the bonuses were 3, 4, and 20, respectively.

We're still playing, so I don't know the end result, but I can take a guess.

One more quick observation...some have suggested a +1 to the reefs. In a five player game, where everyone starts with one reef, it's quite possible to be stuck on your starting tile for the first 3-4 rounds. You deploy 3 for a total of 5, attack the 2 neutrals, lose 2, and end your turn. Then you repeat. Pretty slow way to begin a game.

Cheers, and good luck on the battlefield.

Everyone, thanks for your contributions, and the kudos where applicable.
Obviously something needs to be done and we will be looking into this. Just wanted you to know that your efforts are not falling on deaf ears.

[kmhebert]

Now that I have played even more games on this great map, I am of two minds. Keep in mind I just dropped about 150 points to a New Recruit. So, now I am thinking I kind of like this map the way it is. For one, it definitely levels the playing field among skill levels. It gives any player an equal chance to beat any other player, any time. However, it really is based pretty much entirely on luck. However, is that such a bad thing? I consider this map to be the "baccarat" of Conquer Club maps. You get a quick game, and it comes down to the dice. I have had some good ones where one player has Reef one and the other Reef two, it comes down entirely to a fight over Lugger Genocruz. I mean it's all or nothing, but there is strategy involved. You have to press just enough to capture the Lugger without allowing the other player to take and hold it. That can be interesting. On the other hand, if a player starts with both Reefs 2 and 3, the other player almost has no chance to win. I think this map really is about luck but again I think that's OK. It is a lot of fun to play on however.

[DarkMalkin]

Well, this is certainly quick... Lose 4 armies on the first attack, and that's about it... rofl...
You can recover with an equal amount of dumb luck, but that seems kind of... not interesting. Too bad, I think the map is awsome.

[joshrising]

This looks like a great map, and I love the concept, but after my first game on it, there are some definite problems. Some of these have been echoed by the previous posters.

1) Whoever gets the first lugger wins. This is due, largely, to #2.
2) The rapidly increasing bonus structure. By this I mean how the combination of snorkels and luggers/fresh water. let's say you have two snorkels and two fresh waters. under the current system, you get four bonuses (2x2), which seems way out of control. it just gives people too many armies. i would suggest only one bonus for each pair you control. So if you have two of each, you gets two bonuses only. if you have one snorkel and 3 fresh waters, only one bonus. That would help.

Solving #2 will help #1, but not cure it entirely. To help with problem #1, there are a few other things you could do:
- Have autodeploy, so bonuses have to go on the territories that generated them.
- Remove bonus armies for luggers. This will incentive people to go for fresh water, and could mix up game play a little more.

Those are my initial thoughts. Unless the board gets a shake-up, I probably won't play again. Not much opportunity for strategy when the game is over on round 3.

[Mixxilflix]

Treasure has some modifications needed as everyone else has suggested. From the first game in this map(3083560):

>>>>
Mixxilflix: can be a bit difficult to get going in this game, but i guess that's what neutral games do...
2008-08-20 16:09:59 - The Chosen One: this is my first time on this map too and tks t-o-m...gl all
2008-08-22 00:04:03 - Mixxilflix: I think this map needs a little tweaking - let's all give constructive feedback
2008-08-22 00:04:38 - Mixxilflix: we're experienced players - I will give feedback here soon
2008-08-22 00:10:12 - Mixxilflix: ul TCO - I think this map is slow to start and then gives too many bonuses
2008-08-22 00:10:40 - Mixxilflix: Also, there are maybe too many luggers
2008-08-22 00:11:08 - Mixxilflix: the bonuses can quickly escalate into an avalanche like me at the moment
2008-08-22 00:13:25 - IngredientZ: whoa, just checked in; yeah i've been depleting my armies just to get a card each turn and suddenly red gets 21 armies without even cashing in cards? maybe if the non-reef places started with fewer neutrals on them it'd be easier to get started....
2008-08-22 00:17:42 - IngredientZ: red, i wasn't paying close enough attention, how did you get such a huge bonus? i guess having 3 snorkels helped...
2008-08-22 00:35:51 - Mixxilflix: i had 2 snorkels as everyone starts with
2008-08-22 00:37:05 - Mixxilflix: getting the lugger and water pool did it mainly
2008-08-22 00:37:23 - Mixxilflix: as u can see, i didn't have much, but it became massive
2008-08-22 00:37:46 - Mixxilflix: and the luggers are too many, which means i can be anywhere on the map easily
2008-08-22 00:38:17 - Mixxilflix: .
2008-08-22 00:46:40 - IngredientZ: oh, right, but when you got the bonus you had 3 snorkels. it's just that the pools and luggers count for each snorkel, so having just one more snorkel translates to 5 or 6 more armies
2008-08-22 01:57:17 - Mixxilflix: OK my latest bonus was slightly ridculous!!
<<<<

Sorry it's not formatted, but i think our comments as printed sum it up - it's also what everyone else in this thread have said.
My personal suggestions would be:
1) Possiby fewer luggers
2) maybe limiting bonus
3) even putting 15-20 neutral armies on luggers to start with(makes it harder to conquer lugger).

[hulmey]

1 vs 1 is a disaster on this map and the first person to a lugger is the winner!!

He gets 1 Lugger and drops 12 armies...GAME OVER.....
gets bonus of -1 armies added to Reef 2
2008-08-22 07:24:10 - sjuan76 gets bonus of -1 armies added to Reef 5
2008-08-22 07:24:10 - sjuan76 gets bonus of -1 armies added to Reef 7
2008-08-22 07:24:10 - sjuan76 receives 1 armies for holding Marchena
2008-08-22 07:24:10 - sjuan76 receives 1 armies for holding Lugger Genocruz
2008-08-22 07:24:10 - sjuan76 receives 2 armies for holding Reef 2 and Lugger Genocruz
2008-08-22 07:24:10 - sjuan76 receives 2 armies for holding Reef 5 and Lugger Genocruz
2008-08-22 07:24:10 - sjuan76 receives 2 armies for holding Reef 7 and Lugger Genocruz
2008-08-22 07:24:10 - sjuan76 receives 3 armies for 6 territories

My opponent said ;

2008-08-22 07:30:10 - sjuan76: it is kinda crazy, but it can be funny
2008-08-22 07:30:37 - sjuan76: I think there should be a "trial mode" for games so it does not discount points
2008-08-22 07:31:35 - sjuan76: anyway it needs more than two players... four? With just two it gets unbalanced too quickly

[hulmey]

Im not sure how to advise you to make the map more even in 1 vs 1 coz i imagine in normal games (4 player plus) it works well!!!

1vs1 maybe you should only get +2 for one reef and not all 3 of them....

keep up the good work

[cairnswk]

Game Adjustment Discussion

OK having had a couple of games on this map...here are my proposals for change, i welcome discussion but let us get this done quickly.

1. all luggers neutral start should increase to 10.
2. lugger wolwin will border Darwin only
3. there needs to be a re-arrangement of territories around MA3 - it is the only tert between that reef 3 and lugger genocruz
4. the decay bonus can be removed from the snorkel
5. the bonus for lugger and snorkel needs to come down to +1
6. the bonus for water and snorkel needs to come down to +1
7. luggers need to connect only to their nearest lugger and not every other lugger.

What is the verdict?

[*manimal]

Game Adjustment Discussion

OK having had a couple of games on this map...here are my proposals for change, i welcome discussion but let us get this done quickly.

1. all luggers neutral start should increase to 10.
2. lugger wolwin will border Darwin only
3. there needs to be a re-arrangement of territories around MA3 - it is the only tert between that reef 3 and lugger genocruz
4. the decay bonus can be removed from the snorkel
5. the bonus for lugger and snorkel needs to come down to +1
6. the bonus for water and snorkel needs to come down to +1
7. luggers need to connect only to their nearest lugger and not every other lugger.

What is the verdict?

agree with all points this would make this a great map!

[cairnswk]

.....
7. luggers need to connect only to their nearest lugger and not every other lugger.
...

agree with all points this would make this a great map![/quote]

Thanks Manimal.

Below is the adjusted version where I have worked out the paths to each water and lugger.
I think the luggers connecting between each other will have to be kept as this is the easiest way to get around the map, and keeps the maps speed playability - acting smae as ports in other maps.

And underneath the map is the breakdown of attacks.

Code: Select all

Reef 1 Analysis

To Wolf Water - 10 (3 terts)
To Pinta Water - 10 (3 terts)

To Lugger Wolwin - 15 - (3 terts)


Reef 2 Analysis

To Wolf Water - 11 (3 terts)
To Pinto Water - 10 (3 terts)
To Santiago Water - 11 (4 terts)

To Lugger Pintmar - 14 (3 terts)
To Lugger Isiago - 15 (3 terts)
To Lugger Genocruz - 14 (3 terts)



Reef 3 Analysis

To Genovesa Water - 10 (3 terts)
To Santa CruZ Water - 10 (3 terts)
To Santiago Water - 11 (4 terts)
To Pinta Water - 13 (4 terts)

To Lugger Genocruz - 15 (3 terts either way)
To Lugger Pintmar - 15 (3 terts)


Reef 4 Analysis

To Wolf Water - 10 (3 terts)
To Santiago Water - 19 (4 terts)
To Isabela West Water - 10 (3 terts)
To Isabela North Water - 10 (1 tert)

To Lugger Isiago - 15 (3 terts)
To Lugger Fernela - 14 or 15 (3 terts)


Reef 5 Analysis

To Santa Cruz Water - 10 (3 terts)
To Santiago Water - 10 (3 terts)

To Lugger Genocruz - 15 (3 terts)
To Lugger Isiago - 15 (3 terts)


Reef 6 Analysis

To Tortuga Water - 10 (3 terts)
To Santa Cruz Water - 10 (3 terts)

To Lugger Tortisa - 15 (3 terts)
To Lugger Floreola - 14 (3 terts)


Reef 7 Analysis

To Santa Cruz Water - 10 (3 terts)
To San Cristobal - 10 (3 terts)

To Lugger Floreola - 15 (3 terts)
To Lugger Cristocruz - 15 (2 terts)


Reef 8 Analysis

To Tortuga Water - 10 (3 terts)
To Isabela West Water - either way 15 (3 terts)

To Lugger Tortisa - 15 (3 terts)
To Lugger Fernela - 15 (3 terts)


Reef 9 Analysis

To Espanola Water - 10 (3 terts)
To San Cristobal Water - 10 (3 terts)

To Lugger Floreola - 14 (3 terts)
To Lugger Cristocruz - 16 (4 terts)

[Gilligan]

I think it is much better

[Crissipos]

yes if you do all 7 options it would be a lot better!
although they can connect to all others, as long as the neutrals are high, so 10 is good!

[rom_tobins]

sounds good to me

[ZeroDJoe]

sound great
i dont understand point 3. it seems that reef 2 and reef 3 where in the same situation and that u r givin reef 2 an advantage. i dont think u need to do that. or do it to all reefs. or do it such that they r as balanced as possible.
the lugger connection wont work of u make it be to the closest lugger only:ull get pairs of luggers that onlly connect between thamselfs, i think u either 1) make your own paths between lugger and make explicit on the map , 2) leave it the way it is, 3) make to the nearest lugger on a giving direction, i mean, the 2 or 3 closest luggers(4 in the case of isiago, with is another advantage for reef 2)

all in all i think u r doing great and i cant wait to play in the new one

[*manimal]

excellent job cairns the new one looks like it will be a lot better.