[Official] Brazil REVAMP [Quenched]

[jiminski]

It is a real shame if Marv is holding us all to this... (perhaps we could change the names on the map and call it the map of 'Ancient Chelmsford'.. so we can get rid of the Super Veto.... joking.. half joking.. I understand the tradition of ultimate control for the original creator in spite of the rest of the worlds opinion )

However the point regarding the US is completely moot; the shape of the US has a balance and a symmetry to it.. or at least no gain in symmetry would be made by titling it.. turn is upside-down; maybe but to what gain?
Brazil is wonky in shape, by using the tilt to square the top off and paralleling it with the Baby-map, (you could draw a diagonal line from the left bottom corner to the top right corner, which would fall between the most relevant symmetrical points in both maps) it alludes to a subtle, progressive visual harmony.

In my opinion and without the shackles locked by 15th century European, Cartographic precepts. The map gains a great deal from this simple tilt and RJ should be allowed to remain true to his Aesthetic discovery.

I was not suggesting to add a tilt on US map. This is a way so you can realize how strange your country map can look with a tilt. Like you said, a US map up-to-down would still have balance and simmetry, so, why not? Just put an arrow pointing to North and its ok, isnt it? Now, see if it dont hurt the accustomed eyes. For what gain, you ask, and I return you the same question. Is Brazil gaining simmetry with the tilt? No to me, its still Brazil assimmetric shape with a tilt. And why do you really think we will have the baby map in final version? Its open to discussion too, as we now have 2 legends. I assume that, if you see visual harmony in the tilted Brazil map, its because you didnt look at it without the tilt a million times like me. A serious suggestion: try get a map of your own country and discover some aesthetic harmony adding a tilt to it. I would like to see what we would get.

And many thanks, rj, by understanding the point and redoing it.

....

what a shame..


(you missed my section in bold above, as i suppose you were writing a response as i edited, it explains my view a little better)

But my map would be the UK... do what you want to it if it looks as beautiful as RJ's; with the subtle and respectful nuance of his changes.
North/South Map bias and Map perceptive is largely based in a form of visual propaganda anyway, emanating from European conquest and dominance hundreds of years past.... Censoring RJ is just a real shame.

[AndyDufresne]

I also don't mind the tilt...I know someone suggested adding a compass to show the direction of north, I'd be pleased with such.


--Andy

[jako]

part of why i chose A was because of the tilt. it just looks so much better with a tilt and like jiminski said, its pleasing to the eye.

[Incandenza]

Put me down as another who fancies the tilt...

[RjBeals]

sorry guys.

Marv gets the last word here. As much as it doesn't bother me either, it bothers him. I'll try to make sure I don't loose the feel though - with the map being true north. I just have a feeling there's going to be a lot of dead space.... but we'll see.

[jiminski]

sorry guys.

Marv gets the last word here. As much as it doesn't bother me either, it bothers him. I'll try to make sure I don't loose the feel though - with the map being true north. I just have a feeling there's going to be a lot of dead space.... but we'll see.

this is not what was voted on... sure the artists are important, nay vital!! and their mutual appreciation and deference is impressive. .. but this exercise in artistic ego ignores entirely what those who voted desire... i am completely disillusioned with the revamp process, which appears to be counter to normal foundry process. i will not be participating in another.

[jako]

a large majority of voters voted on A because the way brazil looked in ur map was appeasing to the eye and that was due in large part to the tilt. if what people voted on is changed now, then isnt the voting process altogether useless and misleading?

[pamoa]

About the tilt

Although Marvaddin point of view is important and have to be respected there is a couple of valid arguments against it.

...with the map being true north. I just have a feeling there's going to be a lot of dead space...

Part of why I chose A was because of the tilt...

In effect pointing the map true north would leave 4 "empty" angles.
I think it is the way you managed to fill up the space by tiliting it, that is part of the success of your map.
And I read more than once in the foundry that dead spaces is a kind of a problem for some people.
So despite I tend to think like you Marvaddin, I would say that the tilt is an important part of this map and so should remain.
Can you consider conceading this to the community ?



Now about the graphics

Maybe you can try the background image a bit lighter.
You can also try to put the begining of the border of the surrounding countries with the thin yellow line you had before.
And use the previous double line to suggest the atlantic ocean.

You have to get rid of this double bonus explanation you have ( minimap & legend ).
I would say remove the list and put the name either in the minimap or around the main one.

And last point the border, like said before it's a bit odd.
I would say done a bit in hurry due to competition deadline.
But you should keep the colors.

[Mjinga]

I see Marvaddin's point.



As a resident of the United States, that looks quite odd to me. Perhaps we just don't think Brazil looks weird tilted because we don't live there and don't see the map due North all the time.

Back to my harping point... about the names, Marv! While you're thinking about territ names, can I bring up the continent names? In particular, I do not like Mato Grosso as a continent name, because it includes both Mato Grosso Do Sul and Mato Grosso in the area and also cos it's the only continent named after an actual state. I called it the Central West in my version, with the Central Axis being renamed the Central East. Is there any way that it could be renamed in a similar fashion?

[AndyDufresne]

Consider it from this counter perspective:

You are viewing a globe with roughly the correct natural tilt of the Earth (Earth's axis is tilted some 23.5 degrees from the perpendicular to the Earth–Sun plane):

Click image to enlarge.

Edit: Indeed it is tilted the other way...but still the point stands. People are use to looking at things from a tilted perspective.

Additionally, hundreds of people voted for it.


--Andy

[pepperonibread]

Actually... RJ's map is tilted the other way. So it's really even wronger than a standard north-up map
Still love the tilt though.

[whitestazn88]

wronger is not a word lol, and i mean, i understand that everyone is upset about the tilt thing, but hey, marv gets the last word

[pepperonibread]

wronger is not a word lol, and i mean, i understand that everyone is upset about the tilt thing, but hey, marv gets the last word

lol, I didn't think it was a word either, but Firefox said it wasn't misspelled, and look here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wronger.

[Marvaddin]

Afffff, talking about the tilt is getting boring. Im not really considering to approve it, because:

As a resident of the United States, that looks quite odd to me. Perhaps we just don't think Brazil looks weird tilted because we don't live there and don't see the map due North all the time.

^^ This is what Im saying: I dont feel that I should let it looking weird to us Brazilians, just because some foreign people think its more beautiful with a tilt. Guys, its our country, I cant think that we should have it tilted because you look at the map and see an empty angle. Its more important than a simple good visual sensation. I could tolerate it if it was necessary due to maximum size restrictions, but as it isnt, well... you know.

About the revamp process, well, Im sorry if some think its frustating, but there was clear we would not quench the voted map, it would still be modified in the normal foundry process. And I have posted I would place veto to the tilt in the first comment about all the entries in 1st stage, so if it was in 2nd stage and people voted to it, well, not my fault, I suppose. If you really like the idea, you can ask for a new poll, to choose between rj map without a tilt and the other 2 entries, but Im very happy with the map and the cartographer, and I think it will be even better without the tilt, lets wait and give it a chance.

Empty angles? Well, if they come, its something I wont complain about, because I still feel the lack of the glorious Brazilian flag

Other comments:
- In fact, I like the map borders.

You have to get rid of this double bonus explanation you have ( minimap & legend ).
I would say remove the list and put the name either in the minimap or around the main one.

^^ This is something I agree.

Back to my harping point... about the names, Marv! While you're thinking about territ names, can I bring up the continent names? In particular, I do not like Mato Grosso as a continent name, because it includes both Mato Grosso Do Sul and Mato Grosso in the area and also cos it's the only continent named after an actual state. I called it the Central West in my version, with the Central Axis being renamed the Central East. Is there any way that it could be renamed in a similar fashion?

Oh, well... previously, in the 60's, if Im correct, Mato Grosso and Mato Grosso do Sul were a single state called Mato Grosso, so the name is historically accurate. There is a Central West area in Brazil standard division, but it should include the territories of Goias and Brasilia, so I think that the Mato Grosso name is the better one. About Central Axis, lol, its a fictional area. There is no similar area in Brazil maps. I have called it Central Axis because the area is the most important in terms of economy, population, etc, but I was never happy with this name. Central East would be fine... but Im still open to suggestions, if someone can help me. How should we name the area with most populated and economically important states? Suggestions?

[AndyDufresne]

I usually am in agreement with Marv about most things, but not the tilt. I wouldn't mind seeing a poll, if the results of the poll were actually used, and not just taken into consideration.


--Andy

[cairnswk]

wronger is not a word lol, and i mean, i understand that everyone is upset about the tilt thing, but hey, marv gets the last word

lol, I didn't think it was a word either, but Firefox said it wasn't misspelled, and look here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wronger.

oh dear...the children have been playing again

[wcaclimbing]

I usually am in agreement with Marv about most things, but not the tilt. I wouldn't mind seeing a poll, if the results of the poll were actually used, and not just taken into consideration.


--Andy

The problem with a poll is you would have 100 Americans and Europeans voting for the tilt, and 10 brazilians voting against it (just random numbers I chose, btw).


and after all, this does look a bit strange:


I support no-tilt. You guys wouldn't like if someone tried to tilt a USA map, so why should Brazilians allow tilting of their own map? yeah, it might look a bit better to us "foreigners", but to anyone from Brazil I bet it just looks strange, like the tilted US map looks strange to us.

[ZeakCytho]

I'm also against the tilt, for the reason laid out by Marv and supported more eloquently that I could by Mjinga and wca.

[pamoa]

... can I bring up the continent names? In particular, I do not like Mato Grosso ... I called it the Central West in my version, with the Central Axis being renamed the Central East...

... I think that the Mato Grosso name is the better one. About Central Axis... Central East would be fine... How should we name the area with most populated and economically important states...

My suggestion is the following, simple, geographical and clear:

Northwest
North ( Central North )
Northeast
West ( Mato Grosso )
Central ( Central Axis )
South

[jako]

I usually am in agreement with Marv about most things, but not the tilt. I wouldn't mind seeing a poll, if the results of the poll were actually used, and not just taken into consideration.


--Andy

The problem with a poll is you would have 100 Americans and Europeans voting for the tilt, and 10 brazilians voting against it (just random numbers I chose, btw).


and after all, this does look a bit strange:


I support no-tilt. You guys wouldn't like if someone tried to tilt a USA map, so why should Brazilians allow tilting of their own map? yeah, it might look a bit better to us "foreigners", but to anyone from Brazil I bet it just looks strange, like the tilted US map looks strange to us.

it doesnt look that bad. but im not american so i dont really care that much, but i still support the tilt.

[jiminski]

Afffff, talking about the tilt is getting boring. Im not really considering to approve it, because:


^^ This is what Im saying: I dont feel that I should let it looking weird to us Brazilians, just because some foreign people think its more beautiful with a tilt. Guys, its our country, I cant think that we should have it tilted because you look at the map and see an empty angle. Its more important than a simple good visual sensation. I could tolerate it if it was necessary due to maximum size restrictions, but as it isnt, well... you know.

About the revamp process, well, Im sorry if some think its frustating, but there was clear we would not quench the voted map, it would still be modified in the normal foundry process. And I have posted I would place veto to the tilt in the first comment about all the entries in 1st stage, so if it was in 2nd stage and people voted to it, well, not my fault, I suppose. If you really like the idea, you can ask for a new poll, to choose between rj map without a tilt and the other 2 entries, but Im very happy with the map and the cartographer, and I think it will be even better without the tilt, lets wait and give it a chance.

hehe I really don't think you are sorry that it is frustrating 'some foreigners' at all Marv
It seems that this is your map and no one else's opinion matters as much as your own?
I agree the veto was agreed upon but this is ridiculous to do it in this order! why get our hopes up and then shatter them after we have voted on our favourite image?
This order of operation was bound to cause conflict and a feeling of impotence for those who thought they were involved in the process of decision making!

This is not being modified in the normal foundry process; you are shaping the direction of another map makers creation and, i am sorry to say, in the face of public opinion.
whatever anyone says here, 700 odd people voted and the majority chose RJ's map with a tilt... you will ensure that we do not get it... really?

Your position seems to reflect a complete disregard for consensual oppinion... i am a relative New-boy here but from what i have seen of the Foundry, running roughshod over all other opinion is not normal procedure. (correct me if i am wrong please)

i apologise for the controversy RJ, i truly do. You have behaved with great humility and it was a beautiful work of art, which is why i am rather impassioned regarding it remaining in the style of majority choice!

I am a little incensed each time i look at the map now. I feel like a man who .. just about to make love to a beautiful woman, discovers a joint of beef and two onions in 'her' panties.
thanks for that. You got my hopes up and all i can look forward to is a pain in the arse!

I understand that preconceptions are a powerful master but resting ultimate power in the hands of such an intransigent viewpoint seems a little unfair... particularly when the community was offered the illusion of being able to contribute.

I completely understand your claim on the country of Brazil, Marv and I for one, would love to play on the map of it. But the balance and use of space which the tilt brings, truly is fantastic!
To the unbiased eye, it is almost perfect in composition.

I implore you to take other perspectives into consideration on equal terms, Marv.

[Mjinga]

<Andy stuff>

<wcaclimbing stuff>

it doesnt look that bad. but im not american so i dont really care that much, but i still support the tilt.

Precisely. You're not from the country so you don't care.

I really think it's fair to put this one under Marvaddin's decision alone, since he is from Brazil and does care. I mean, I see everyone's points about public opinion and suchlike, but it is his map, and he did say that he wouldn't let the tilt go forward from round one. You all could whinge at RJ for misleading you in the polls instead of Marv for vetoing the tilt, if you want to whinge about something.

[The Viking]

You can't compare a tilted Brazil map to a tilted U.S. map.
And I'm not American.
The top(north) border of the U.S. is a straight line aligned east-west so tilting it looks strange. It is in no way comparable to Brazil, which has no straight lines.

I slightly tilted map of Iceland, where I'm from, does not look that weird to me and I wouldn't mind it if RJBeals had decided to tilt Iceland on his Iceland map, if it would serve some visual purpose.

It'd be interesting to see what people from countries other than Brazil and the U.S. think.

[AndyDufresne]

What if the map was tilted the other direction...a "more true representation." You migt be able to keep the minimap on the left, and put the legend on the right.

It may not be as pleasing as the current tilt, but it would allow both to stay perhaps, and it would be from a perspective people all around the world have seen the country from.


--Andy

[edbeard]

I'm against removing the tilt because the mini-map currently looks like part of the tree in the background. If we 'untilted' the map, it wouldn't look like that anymore.

I'm for removing the tilt because Marvaddin wants to get rid of it and it's his map. It's a Marvocracy when it comes to certain things.