free will vs omniscience

[Frigidus]

This concept of freewill, is it actually in the bible or was it just coined as a defence against awkward questions ? I have lost count of the number of times that somebody has posted ' God meant this ' or ' Gods reason was ' ... its just conjecture surely.

Well, of course. It's not like you turn to Luke 3:19 and it says "Lo, and THE LORD did assureth that the people had a will of there own, with which they might find their own path despite any possible conflictions with the existence of an omniscient being."

[InkL0sed]

If the Lord is all knowing, he also knows how to allow us free will while knowing our futures despite the lack of logic. In short, God defies logic. But we knew that already...

[kagetora]

Because God is illogical.

[william18]

Because God is illogical.

No because his way of think can't be comprhended by us.

[Frigidus]

Because God is illogical.

No because his way of think can't be comprhended by us.

Heh...isn't that the definition that Jenos Ridan always uses in that proof for illogical?

[william18]

Because God is illogical.

No because his way of think can't be comprhended by us.

Heh...isn't that the definition that Jenos Ridan always uses in that proof for illogical?

I illogical is when there is no or vague resoning, if we can't comprehend it then it is logic to complicated for us to understand or requires information we do not have access to.

[heavycola]

And if you're an atheist and accord no credence to the metaphysical, surely all our actions result from and cause links in a vast deterministic chain stretching backwards through infinity or some T point (the big bang or whatever). Our "choices" are determined by nothing more than chemical reactions in our cerebral cortex due to movement of particles, in response to physical phenomena, themselves determined by various scientific laws.

Don;t just assume that determinism is the only option left for anyone who has left religion behind. The phyiscal world is not, as you should know, entirely deterministic.

With God and metaphysical concepts in the equation, I like to address your (fairly simple) fallacy using the analogy of the recorded football match. If a mate has told you the score, that doesn't mean it was predetermined at the time of the game, nor that the actions of football players you watch (a day later) were determined, even if what you see on your monitor is. Since God transcends spacetime, he knows the "score", if you will, of our lives, but that doesn't make them determined.

Yes it does. My earthbound mate cannot know the score before the match has been played. Jesus, on the other hand, could make a fortune every day down the bookies. For god, the score is inevitable and unchangeable. If it's changeable, god doesn't know what it is going to be. And if he's not omniscient, he's not omnipotent.
If the score is set in stone, however, then no one involved on the pitch has any choice.

[joecoolfrog]

My faith in West Ham is restored,I now realise they had no choice but to be crap year after year

[azezzo]

This was getting interesting in some other thread, so deserves its own.

Argument:

If god is omniscient - if he knows everything that was, is and will be - then everything you do and every decision you make have been known to him since the beginning of time.

OK?

Now if that is the case, all we are doing is reading from a script. We have no real choices. If we did, we could surprise god - and since he knows everything, that is impossible.

Free will is impossible if there exists an omniscient creator. The fact that i chose to start this thread has been an inevitability from the very start of creation. I had no real choice. The idea that god gave us the choice to believe in him, when he has known all along which of us will and which of us won't, is not 'choice' at all, anymore than Neo has a choice about wether or not he takes the blue or the red pill.

Free will and an omniscient creator can not co-exist.

i think your logic is flawed.
God being omniscience and our having free will are independent of each other.
to simplify this, you can choose to be good or bad, but i understand your point about why then did God bother with us if he knew the outcome?

[kagetora]

This was getting interesting in some other thread, so deserves its own.

Argument:

If god is omniscient - if he knows everything that was, is and will be - then everything you do and every decision you make have been known to him since the beginning of time.

OK?

Now if that is the case, all we are doing is reading from a script. We have no real choices. If we did, we could surprise god - and since he knows everything, that is impossible.

Free will is impossible if there exists an omniscient creator. The fact that i chose to start this thread has been an inevitability from the very start of creation. I had no real choice. The idea that god gave us the choice to believe in him, when he has known all along which of us will and which of us won't, is not 'choice' at all, anymore than Neo has a choice about wether or not he takes the blue or the red pill.

Free will and an omniscient creator can not co-exist.

Oh yeah, we forgot to put in that God is omnipotent and the creator.

i think your logic is flawed.
God being omniscience and our having free will are independent of each other.
to simplify this, you can choose to be good or bad, but i understand your point about why then did God bother with us if he knew the outcome?

QFT, and he doesn't love everyone, because half of us are doomed to hell

[DAZMCFC]

It isn't interfering, but let's consider an example. Oedipus Rex, let's say. In Oedipus Rex Oedipus' parents are informed that their child would one day kill his father and sleep with his mother. They leave on a hill to die, fast forward, he later kills his father in a duel and sleeps with his mother. There was nothing he could do to stop this, it was fated. The fact that this precognition existed made the act unavoidable.

now if they knew he was going to kill his dad and then shag his mam, they should of drowned the little shit at birth or called him Steve.


...and Joe, don't worry. i've been waiting a hell of lot longer than you for City to get to a final, let alone win one. we've won one in my lifetime (76' League Cup). 3 months before iwas born, we won the Cup Winners Cup and League Cup(May 70').i live in hope, if i was a trophy hunter i would support Manure.

[joecoolfrog]

It isn't interfering, but let's consider an example. Oedipus Rex, let's say. In Oedipus Rex Oedipus' parents are informed that their child would one day kill his father and sleep with his mother. They leave on a hill to die, fast forward, he later kills his father in a duel and sleeps with his mother. There was nothing he could do to stop this, it was fated. The fact that this precognition existed made the act unavoidable.

now if they knew he was going to kill his dad and then shag his mam, they should of drowned the little shit at birth or called him Steve.


...and Joe, don't worry. i've been waiting a hell of lot longer than you for City to get to a final, let alone win one. we've won one in my lifetime (76' League Cup). 3 months before iwas born, we won the Cup Winners Cup and League Cup(May 70').i live in hope, if i was a trophy hunter i would support Manure.

Yes cant really complain, seen the boys win 2 cup finals including that memorable victory over the scum in 1980.

[PLAYER57832]

Because God is illogical.

Remember "logic" is a human thing, a human invention based upon the natural "laws" that exist here on earth and the processes that we see, feel, etc. It works for us, but is it not necessarily a "law of the universe".

Science is filled with discoveries that, at first, seemed completely to defy logic ... and things that seem quite logical at first are not necessarily real or valid.

The bottom line is that Christians believe God is ominiscient and that we have free will. Whether you understand how that occurs is irrelevant. It just is.

[Neoteny]

Because God is illogical.

Remember "logic" is a human thing, a human invention based upon the natural "laws" that exist here on earth and the processes that we see, feel, etc. It works for us, but is it not necessarily a "law of the universe".

Science is filled with discoveries that, at first, seemed completely to defy logic ... and things that seem quite logical at first are not necessarily real or valid.

The bottom line is that Christians believe God is ominiscient and that we have free will. Whether you understand how that occurs is irrelevant. It just is.

Any attempts to dampen rational inquiry should be and will be met with ridicule and disdain. Logic is one of the things we have going for us. Discarding it so easily is dangerous.

[PLAYER57832]

Because God is illogical.

Remember "logic" is a human thing, a human invention based upon the natural "laws" that exist here on earth and the processes that we see, feel, etc. It works for us, but is it not necessarily a "law of the universe".

Science is filled with discoveries that, at first, seemed completely to defy logic ... and things that seem quite logical at first are not necessarily real or valid.

The bottom line is that Christians believe God is ominiscient and that we have free will. Whether you understand how that occurs is irrelevant. It just is.

Any attempts to dampen rational inquiry should be and will be met with ridicule and disdain. Logic is one of the things we have going for us. Discarding it so easily is dangerous.

For earth, I absolutely agree. However, who knows what might exist in other dimensions, planes of being, etc.

ALSO, my other point is that just because we, right now (or some of us, perhaps), cannot perceive something as logical does not mean it is not truly logical. Logic is as much about our individual experiences as anything else. That is why I mentioned science. Is it "logical" that electrons should show both qualities of being a wave and of being a particle ... or seem to be in more than one location at once?

Kids make this abundantly clear to us. A three year old, seeing a VCR "eat" a video tape, might think it quite logical to see if it will eat a peanut butter sandwich. A five year old, hearing about certain people "coming out of the closet" might well look in his closet to find people.

This is precisely where faith comes into play.

When logic and faith seem to contradict, we have 3 options. One is Jay's method -- discard that which he cannot conceive to cooincide with his idea of faith. The second is the more traditional Protestant/Roman Catholic and even agnostic method, to cautiously pursue and debate both the science AND the faith, because often it is not true conflict, just that we have misunderstood certain things -- be it slavery or creation. The third is to discard faith completely because it is not logical .. this is the tactic of many atheists.

I would argue that, in their own way, atheism can be just as limiting as the blind faith following that is its opposition. I, personally prefere the middle road. But that is just my preference and my belief. The nice thing about this world is that we all do have free will and free choice!

[heavycola]

Because God is illogical.

Remember "logic" is a human thing, a human invention based upon the natural "laws" that exist here on earth and the processes that we see, feel, etc. It works for us, but is it not necessarily a "law of the universe".

Science is filled with discoveries that, at first, seemed completely to defy logic ... and things that seem quite logical at first are not necessarily real or valid.

The bottom line is that Christians believe God is ominiscient and that we have free will. Whether you understand how that occurs is irrelevant. It just is.

Any attempts to dampen rational inquiry should be and will be met with ridicule and disdain. Logic is one of the things we have going for us. Discarding it so easily is dangerous.

For earth, I absolutely agree. However, who knows what might exist in other dimensions, planes of being, etc.

ALSO, my other point is that just because we, right now (or some of us, perhaps), cannot perceive something as logical does not mean it is not truly logical. Logic is as much about our individual experiences as anything else. That is why I mentioned science. Is it "logical" that electrons should show both qualities of being a wave and of being a particle ... or seem to be in more than one location at once?

Kids make this abundantly clear to us. A three year old, seeing a VCR "eat" a video tape, might think it quite logical to see if it will eat a peanut butter sandwich. A five year old, hearing about certain people "coming out of the closet" might well look in his closet to find people.

This is precisely where faith comes into play.

When logic and faith seem to contradict, we have 3 options. One is Jay's method -- discard that which he cannot conceive to cooincide with his idea of faith. The second is the more traditional Protestant/Roman Catholic and even agnostic method, to cautiously pursue and debate both the science AND the faith, because often it is not true conflict, just that we have misunderstood certain things -- be it slavery or creation. The third is to discard faith completely because it is not logical .. this is the tactic of many atheists.

I would argue that, in their own way, atheism can be just as limiting as the blind faith following that is its opposition. I, personally prefere the middle road. But that is just my preference and my belief. The nice thing about this world is that we all do have free will and free choice!

But you do seem to accept that there is a fundamental paradox in beliving in an omniscient god and free will. There has to be a difference, too, in believing in god and believing that black is white.

Isn't it a terrible cop out to just say, 'well sure there is a paradox here, no one can explain how the two can co-exist, but i guess that's just how it is'? I mean, in that case what is reason for? Why do people spend so much time arguing over glitches in the bible? Why choose xianity over scientology, if reason isn't important?
There has to be a baseline somewhere, and logic/reason is it. The fact that this huge paradox in xian teaching is staring us in the face cannot be dismissed by saying 'it is beyond understanding'. May as well scrap science, philosophy, bible study class, school, everything.
The universe works according to rules. That is why we can know so much about it. You can't just dismiss those rules on a whim every time a problem comes up.

[Napoleon Ier]

God is essentially watching the 'recorded' version of our lives by virtue of his transcendence of timespace.

In re your point about the universe not being deterministic, that's only true at a quantum level-and random uncontrollable particle behaviour leaves as little scope for free will as determinism.

Furthermore, if our actions aren't determined, then what causes them? Random, spasmodic variations-not 'free will'.

[heavycola]

God is essentially watching the 'recorded' version of our lives by virtue of his transcendence of timespace.

This is meaningless, but I'll have a go. Our lives take place within spacetime. God acts in spacetime, so he is not transcendent of it. And who cares where he watches from? What difference does that make?
The problem still exists, in that if he is omniscient, then our choices are predetermined.

In re your point about the universe not being deterministic, that's only true at a quantum level-and random uncontrollable particle behaviour leaves as little scope for free will as determinism.

Furthermore, if our actions aren't determined, then what causes them?

Well, i don't know. At present, no one does. Roger Penrose puts forward an interestign theory - essentially, i think, it boils down to differnt brain states - of which there are, in theory, more than the number of atoms in the universe - changing as a result of collapsing wave functions at the quantum level. I could be wrong on the detail - if anyone else has read the Emperor's new Mind and wants to put me straight, please do.

[kagetora]

God is essentially watching the 'recorded' version of our lives by virtue of his transcendence of timespace.

This is meaningless, but I'll have a go. Our lives take place within spacetime. God acts in spacetime, so he is not transcendent of it. And who cares where he watches from? What difference does that make?
The problem still exists, in that if he is omniscient, then our choices are predetermined.

Don't forget, the Christian God is omnipotent as well, making it even more predetermined.

In re your point about the universe not being deterministic, that's only true at a quantum level-and random uncontrollable particle behaviour leaves as little scope for free will as determinism.

Furthermore, if our actions aren't determined, then what causes them?

Well, i don't know. At present, no one does. Roger Penrose puts forward an interestign theory - essentially, i think, it boils down to differnt brain states - of which there are, in theory, more than the number of atoms in the universe - changing as a result of collapsing wave functions at the quantum level. I could be wrong on the detail - if anyone else has read the Emperor's new Mind and wants to put me straight, please do.

Not sure about that, but that sounds a lot like String Theory

[PLAYER57832]

But you do seem to accept that there is a fundamental paradox in beliving in an omniscient god and free will.

No, I don't see it as a paradox at all! I offered my explanation earlier, but several individuals don't like it. I accept that some other people feel this is a paradox... and simply won't accept any explanation offered so far.

There has to be a difference, too, in believing in god and believing that black is white.

God is a belief. Colors are definitions. But, absorb light and you get the color black. repel light and you get white. So, in a sense the light colors are the opposite of the colors we see. In that way black could be white... but we usually just define it by what we see, not the light.

Isn't it a terrible cop out to just say, 'well sure there is a paradox here, no one can explain how the two can co-exist, but i guess that's just how it is'? I mean, in that case what is reason for? Why do people spend so much time arguing over glitches in the bible? Why choose xianity over scientology, if reason isn't important?

Reason is important, but it is no more the answer to everything than faith is the answer to everything. This is getting to a circular discussion from other threads. I suspect that a large number of you are young enough that you might not have really experienced romantic love. You may think you have, (maybe you have), but until you experience it, it is hard to know exactly how illogical it is. YET, love is absolutely real and absolutely decides a lot of what goes on in this world.

Hate is equally illogical ... or can drive people to extremes of illogic, though the whole while they may well claim their actions are perfectly logical.

That is precisely why we have rules, in the Christian faith, the ten commandments and a variety of parables, etc. Often when people think they are being quite "logical" ... that is often the time to really and truly worry ... because more often than not, there is some minor flaw that they just cannot see.

This discussion is a very good example. You don't see how a God can be ominipotent and also allow us free will. So, instead of saying "well, I don't know everything and this happens to be one" .. you say "this is not logical". But, just who defines that logic ... you. So, it is circular. You set the definition of what logic means, in this case and therefore no one can possibly refute you ... and you know what? That is the same sort of argument that despots and religious fanatics alike have put forward.

There has to be a baseline somewhere, and logic/reason is it. The fact that this huge paradox in xian teaching is staring us in the face cannot be dismissed by saying 'it is beyond understanding'. May as well scrap science, philosophy, bible study class, school, everything.

No, the baseline is HUMANITY, not logic. Humanity includes logic... and the completely illogical feelings of love, hope, etc. AND other forms of complete illogic. I mentioned Sci Fi and Fantasy before. Again, there are stories abundant that illustrate this point quite well. Look at most of the Robot vs man genre, for example. OR, look at some of the old Star Trek stuff where the Vulcan mind is analyzed, explored. OR ... a thousand others that I can't think of this minute.

Humanity is not 100% logical.

And remember, all of those classes... biology, physics, Bible study, etc ... are all based upon the combination that makes humanity what it is. We need logic AND we need faith.

The universe works according to rules. That is why we can know so much about it. You can't just dismiss those rules on a whim every time a problem comes up

Dismiss the rules? No, but I don't believe we understand but the smallest portion of those rules.

A few years ago, I had a friend involved in some of the early Quantum physics studies. Truly brilliant people. One day, he came in, very disturbed and said "reality does not exist". I gently proded him, saying "of course it exists". He look at me, quite serious, and exclaimed, "no, you don't understand .. it does not exist, there is not such thing as reality."

My response? No, I DO understand. But reality is by definition "what is". So you just found that what you thought was reality ... is different. But it is still reality.

Humankind has been making such fundamental, earth shattering discoveries as long as humans have existed. Most we now take for granted, but there are still things out there yet to be discovered, completely unknown.

You can call it a "cop out" all you like, but the REAL truth is there is a lot more about this world and this universe that we don't know than things we know.... and THAT is a completely logical FACT!

[Juan_Bottom]

Humankind has been making such fundamental, earth shattering discoveries as long as humans have existed. Most we now take for granted, but there are still things out there yet to be discovered, completely unknown.

You can call it a "cop out" all you like, but the REAL truth is there is a lot more about this world and this universe that we don't know than things we know.... and THAT is a completely logical FACT!

And in light of such heavy evidence against him/her, this is why you continue to believe in a God?
Just looking for some clearity...

Reason is important, but it is no more the answer to everything than faith is the answer to everything.

Only in your head? You logic is that God does it all. But by definition, that isn't a logical answer. Where's the reasoning in that?

Humanity is not 100% logical.

By definition or action?

No, the baseline is HUMANITY, not logic.

We need logic AND we need faith.

We need it to be good to each other? Cause I'm awesome. Everyone in the Godless Heathens is awesome.
I know I'm kinda nit-picking, but this is what I'm getting from this so far...

[kagetora]

But you do seem to accept that there is a fundamental paradox in beliving in an omniscient god and free will.

No, I don't see it as a paradox at all! I offered my explanation earlier, but several individuals don't like it. I accept that some other people feel this is a paradox... and simply won't accept any explanation offered so far.

Ok, let's say, despite our reason to your faith, that omniscience and free will can coexist. If you have an omnipotent and omniscient creator then there is no such thing as free will.

Isn't it a terrible cop out to just say, 'well sure there is a paradox here, no one can explain how the two can co-exist, but i guess that's just how it is'? I mean, in that case what is reason for? Why do people spend so much time arguing over glitches in the bible? Why choose xianity over scientology, if reason isn't important?

Reason is important, but it is no more the answer to everything than faith is the answer to everything. This is getting to a circular discussion from other threads. I suspect that a large number of you are young enough that you might not have really experienced romantic love. You may think you have, (maybe you have), but until you experience it, it is hard to know exactly how illogical it is. YET, love is absolutely real and absolutely decides a lot of what goes on in this world.

Hate is equally illogical ... or can drive people to extremes of illogic, though the whole while they may well claim their actions are perfectly logical.

That is precisely why we have rules, in the Christian faith, the ten commandments and a variety of parables, etc. Often when people think they are being quite "logical" ... that is often the time to really and truly worry ... because more often than not, there is some minor flaw that they just cannot see.

This discussion is a very good example. You don't see how a God can be ominipotent and also allow us free will. So, instead of saying "well, I don't know everything and this happens to be one" .. you say "this is not logical". But, just who defines that logic ... you. So, it is circular. You set the definition of what logic means, in this case and therefore no one can possibly refute you ... and you know what? That is the same sort of argument that despots and religious fanatics alike have put forward.

Now I twist what you just said just a little bit, and it turns on you.

You say that "We can't know what God thinks." Do I sense a cop out? Therefore, you just omit all reasoning, and refuse to accept it, and in this case, no one can possibly refute you... and you know what? That is the same sort of arguement that priests and religious fanatics alike have put forward.

There has to be a baseline somewhere, and logic/reason is it. The fact that this huge paradox in xian teaching is staring us in the face cannot be dismissed by saying 'it is beyond understanding'. May as well scrap science, philosophy, bible study class, school, everything.

No, the baseline is HUMANITY, not logic. Humanity includes logic... and the completely illogical feelings of love, hope, etc. AND other forms of complete illogic. I mentioned Sci Fi and Fantasy before. Again, there are stories abundant that illustrate this point quite well. Look at most of the Robot vs man genre, for example. OR, look at some of the old Star Trek stuff where the Vulcan mind is analyzed, explored. OR ... a thousand others that I can't think of this minute.

Humanity is not 100% logical.

And remember, all of those classes... biology, physics, Bible study, etc ... are all based upon the combination that makes humanity what it is. We need logic AND we need faith.

We. Do. Not. Need. Faith. Any other species have faith in gods the same way we do? Yes. Do they exist? Yes. Have many of them existed longer than humans? Yes.

[jay_a2j]

This was getting interesting in some other thread, so deserves its own.

Argument:

If god is omniscient - if he knows everything that was, is and will be - then everything you do and every decision you make have been known to him since the beginning of time.

OK?

Now if that is the case, all we are doing is reading from a script. We have no real choices. If we did, we could surprise god - and since he knows everything, that is impossible.

Free will is impossible if there exists an omniscient creator. The fact that i chose to start this thread has been an inevitability from the very start of creation. I had no real choice. The idea that god gave us the choice to believe in him, when he has known all along which of us will and which of us won't, is not 'choice' at all, anymore than Neo has a choice about wether or not he takes the blue or the red pill.

Free will and an omniscient creator can not co-exist.

Why does God knowing what WE will do, void free will? It's NOT a script, we make choices and God sees it before we do it. He SEES it, not CONTROLS it. Now if God controlled our choices, then yes, free will would be non-existent. I just don't get your logic heavy.

[danvoy9787]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!!!!!

God knows exactly the way everything will happen AND we have free will to make our own choices.
he just already knows which choice we are going to make
(but see it is STILL our choice... he isnt dictating what we are doing, just knowing what we are doing.)

[polarbeast23]

why is it that everyone seems to think that "God" has to have a consciousness at all? Why does there actually have to be a purpose to creation other than to have been created? True, I believe in a higher being that is the creator of all and the giver of life... but i don't think that it has a consciousness or a will or a plan. It is just an abundance of energy that issues forth into the physical world as the manifestation that we call life.