Europa [Quenched]

[Qwert]

Culturally one could say it isn't.

Can you explane more.How you come with these conclusion?

[Ruben Cassar]

Kaliningrad: The solution is simple. When one holds Russia he also holds Kaliningrad which is part of Russia and not a separate state at the end of the day. So who holds Russia can attack Lithuania and Poland but who has those states can also attack Russia.

[MarVal]

Kaliningrad: The solution is simple. When one holds Russia he also holds Kaliningrad which is part of Russia and not a separate state at the end of the day. So who holds Russia can attack Lithuania and Poland but who has those states can also attack Russia.

I like that idea very much. It has a new dimension on gameplay (attack/defend), cause in real life its also a strategy area for the defense of Russia to the Western world and especially to the USA.

7. Territories etc.
My initial goal was to represent Europe exactly as it really is, with every European country on it... the problem is that nobody can define Europe! Do we take a geographical stand-point? If so, tectonic or otherwise? Do we use membership of the EU? or trading agreements? As soon as we get political, then whose opinion should we use? The map here, is comprehensively European, even if it does contain a couple of borderline/self-professed European areas.

I think you can aim for Europe as a continent (one of the seven traditional continents of Earth). And then you can go for geographical instead of political:

Geographically, Europe is the westernmost peninsula of the continent of Eurasia; its limits are well defined by sea to the North, South and West. The Ural mountains are usually taken as the eastern limit of Europe, along with the Ural River, and the Caspian Sea. Europe can be considered bounded to the southeast by the Caucasus Mountains, the Black Sea and the waterways connecting the Black Sea to the Mediterranean.

Here a picture of Geographical Europe:

Green = Europe
Lightblue = extension over Asia over the continuous territory of european state
Darkblue = Physiographically in Asia Considered European for cultural and historical reasons.

So i think the green area can be taken for Europe on your map, MrBenn. But the discussion is yours

More info about Europe's eastern and southeastern extent, you can find it on wikipedia.

Grtz
MarVal

[snufkin]

Green = Europe

aye the green stuff is the real europe
the area that is turkey today was asia 2400 years ago and still is - ignorance is the only reason why some consider it part of europe

[MrBenn]

Kaliningrad: If you remove the minimap and resize the the legend a bit you should have more room to shift "Estonia" and "Latvia" to the upper right position and "Lithuania" to the right. This way you can get room for "Kaliningrad" in the upper left position.

Sadly, this 'fix' will create problems with 3-digit numbers on all of The Baltics.

Kaliningrad: The solution is simple. When one holds Russia he also holds Kaliningrad which is part of Russia and not a separate state at the end of the day. So who holds Russia can attack Lithuania and Poland but who has those states can also attack Russia.

I like that idea very much. It has a new dimension on gameplay (attack/defend), cause in real life its also a strategy area for the defense of Russia to the Western world and especially to the USA.

This is exactly what I would like to achieve - I just need to work out a way of explaining that clearly and concisely... Any ideas anyone?

Minimap: Is'nt the small map redundant? The legend should say it all. (Other maps are out there that could use one though.)

I don't think the minimap should go.

The minimap will be staying, as I think that a minimap is sometimes more helpful than a list-style legend. There is room for both, and with a little tweaking, both will be clear

Europa: Inconsistent spelling. All the countries are spelled using english nomenclature and the continent the germanic. I suggest switching the "a" for a "e".

There was some discussion a while back about map title - the current Europe map will be staying, so we need something to differentiate it from that. Europe 2.0? Europa MMVIII? Complete Europe? Any other thoughts?

whether Greece should really be in the Balkans

I realy,realy want to know source where you find that Grecce is not a part of Balkan,because Balkan is not peninsula without Grecce.(ofcourse you can ignore again,like you ignore previous post)

I know that Greece is on the Balkan peninsular - my comment relates to the region groupings on this map, that have had to been marginally compromised for the sake of gameplay.

More info about Europe's eastern and southeastern extent, you can find it on wikipedia.

Been there; looked at several maps all over the place, etc. etc. The Caucasus area is idealogically Europen, and Georgia et al are members of the Council of Europe. I think having the 'Transcontinental' region is a nod to the fact that these countries are borderline European, and is my attempt to settle the debate

[zimmah]

The Netherlands are after refered to as NL, and not ne, so i'd rather see nl on the key.

[yeti_c]

The Netherlands are after refered to as NL, and not ne, so i'd rather see nl on the key.

OK - makes sense to me

[lanyards]

I don't like the under case letter at the beginning of each territory. Capitalize the first letter of each territory.

--lanyards

[zimmah]

The Netherlands are after refered to as NL, and not ne, so i'd rather see nl on the key.

OK - makes sense to me

ah, must have missed that one. thanks yeti.

[hulmey]

Thanks for the comments/feedback - It's all good

I'll put my replies into a couple of categories/common themes, and then post a couple of individual responses... Again, if I've missed your comment, please nudge me again!

Thanks

1. The Alps.
They should be on the map, but I think I just hid that layer by mistake on the last update Having said that, I quite like the look of the map without them?? Unless there is major outcry, they'll stay!

2. Ocean Routes
I will smarten these up and clarify the attack routes etc. on my next update. I haven't changed them for a while, but I've been redrawing borders and land positions which has made them look wrong and a bit messy.
In the meantime, Corsica is linked to Monaco and Sardinia. Crete is linked to Greece, Cyprus and Sicily.

3. Region Colours
I always knew that the two oranges (Benelux/Central Europe) would cause some problems, and I thought I'd got the middle-ground of the Hellenic blue... I'll tweak the colours a bit on the next update.

4. Isolated Areas
Liechtenstein... if it bordered Germany, I could stretch the size easily. I thought I'd drawn an arrow on an early version... I may have deleted/hidden it, but I'll draw another one

Kaliningrad (the brown bit between poland/Lithuania) is by biggest concern at the moment. This Russian exclave is too small to be a seperate territory (there isn't enough room to fit name and number), and I'm torn about how it will work

5. Mini-Map / Legend
I'll make these both a bit bigger. I've tried putting the title elsewhere, but it didn't look right. I'll have another play around and think about it some more.

6. Army Shadows
I prefer the look of the white shadows, but I'm contemplating mixing dark shadows on light areas... would this help #3 above??

7. Territories etc.
My initial goal was to represent Europe exactly as it really is, with every European country on it... the problem is that nobody can define Europe! Do we take a geographical stand-point? If so, tectonic or otherwise? Do we use membership of the EU? or trading agreements? As soon as we get political, then whose opinion should we use? The map here, is comprehensively European, even if it does contain a couple of borderline/self-professed European areas.

There have been 30 pages of discussion about territory groupings, and this is definitely the best yet. Yes, we could still spend hours/weeks debating whether Cyprus should be grouped with Greece or Turkey; whether Greece should really be in the Balkans; whether Greenland is part of Europe or not; whether the transcontinental areas should be on the map; and so on, but I think this is the best compromise that will be reached.

If you have a suggestion to make, please do, but be aware that it may have been discussed before

http://www.spacetoday.org/images/Europe ... iesMap.gif

As you can see, the uk is not called the british isles

well, uk is not reffered to as the british isles

[hulmey]

or

http://europa.eu/abc/maps/index_en.htm

[Ruben Cassar]

or

http://europa.eu/abc/maps/index_en.htm

UK is England, Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland

British Isles is all those plus Eire.

Great Britain is England, Scotland, Wales.

[hulmey]

or

http://europa.eu/abc/maps/index_en.htm

UK is England, Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland

British Isles is all those plus Eire.

Great Britain is England, Scotland, Wales.

yep ruben nailed it! Rep of Ireland is classed as its own country in Europe. Thats if your going to create a true and correct image of europe!?!?

[zimmah]

or

http://europa.eu/abc/maps/index_en.htm

UK is England, Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland

British Isles is all those plus Eire.

Great Britain is England, Scotland, Wales.

yep ruben nailed it! Rep of Ireland is classed as its own country in Europe. Thats if your going to create a true and correct image of europe!?!?

and what's exactly different compared to his map?

his map has a continent bonus 'British Isles' and these include England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. so that's correct right? i don't really see your point...

[yeti_c]

Latest Update:June 10th 2008

Click image to enlarge.

Comments based on this image... mainly about mini map.

Remove "the" from "The balkans"
Most of the wording looks like it needs to drop a pixel or 2.
Consider painting the med islands white. (Not sure though)

I reckon you should reinstate Kalingrad - as there are other provinces of countries on the map that have their own countries.
Would like to see Gibraltar return for similar reasons.
Still not convinced with reasoning for Greenland - but I'll leave you to decide.
Agree with Zimmah & Rubens comments about British Isles (and not Hulmeys)

C.

[Fitz69]

Mini Map:
If the minimap stays then consider removing the internal borders between countries in the same bonus-region.

[Ruben Cassar]

Mini Map:
If the minimap stays then consider removing the internal borders between countries in the same bonus-region.

I say enlarge the mini map and shift the title to another location. Perhaps west of Ireland or above Norway.

[MrBenn]

OK, I'm hoping to get an update done tonight - here's what is currently on my To Do list:

- Albania/Serbia border needs clarifying
- Change ne to nl
- Make minimap bigger and clearer by removing territory lines
- Sort out legend text alignment
- Move the europa title somewhere
- Redraw ocean routes
- Redraw Monaco / Gibraltar
- Define the Kaliningrad/Russia attack rule (Russia also borders Poland and Lithuania)

[MrBenn]

or

http://europa.eu/abc/maps/index_en.htm

UK is England, Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland

British Isles is all those plus Eire.

Great Britain is England, Scotland, Wales.

yep ruben nailed it! Rep of Ireland is classed as its own country in Europe. Thats if your going to create a true and correct image of europe!?!?

and what's exactly different compared to his map?

his map has a continent bonus 'British Isles' and these include England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. so that's correct right? i don't really see your point...

Hulmey, I really have no idea what you are suggesting...

a) Do you want Rep of Ireland to be seperated from the British Isles bonus? If so, what bonus region do you want me to put it in? How do you envisage this working?
b) Do you want the UK to be a single territory in place of England Wales Scotland and N Ireland? I decided against this from the outset... the UK is not a country per se, although is recognised as such.
c) Is it just the name 'British Isles' you have issue with? Can you think of anything better?
d) Is it something else? If so, please could you explain, rather than posting pictures of maps with which I am already familiar.

[Ruben Cassar]

British Isles is fine as it is. Worry about other stuff Ben.

[MrBenn]

British Isles is fine as it is. Worry about other stuff Ben.

I'm not worryinng about it - just trying to work out exactly what Hulmey is suggesting, so that I can tell him exactly why it's going to stay how it is

[Ruben Cassar]

British Isles is fine as it is. Worry about other stuff Ben.

I'm not worryinng about it - just trying to work out exactly what Hulmey is suggesting, so that I can tell him exactly why it's going to stay how it is

I think hulmey was just commenting about historical facts not the map per se...or at least I think so.

[MrBenn]

I've got an update on my PC, and I've addressed all the issues I detailed earlier today - I just can't upload it at the moment... watch this space...

[MrBenn]

Update Number 20!
- Albania/Serbia border made clearer
- Croatia/hungary border made clearer
- Changed ne to nl
- Tweaked the colours of Benelux/Hellenic States and the Ocean in the background
- Moved the title into the sea above Norway
- Made minimap bigger and clearer and removed territory lines
- Sorted out legend text alignment
- Redrawn ocean routes
- Redrawn Andorra / Monaco / Gibraltar
- Added the label 'Russia' to Kaliningrad - to define the Kaliningrad/Russia attack rule (Russia also borders Poland and Lithuania)

[gimil]

Benn I feel you are making excellent head way on this one, it kinda feel olde skool in a sence compared to modern foundry work. Nice one!