Australia [Quenched]

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:56 am

I disagree it needs more.. the ireland map blows..

Add new zealand add new guinea.. if necessary even add indonesia... a nice australasia wouldnt hurt.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:12 am

reverend_kyle wrote:Add new zealand add new guinea.. if necessary even add indonesia... a nice australasia wouldnt hurt.

I dont mind that idea, but if I do that I'll lose a bunch of Aussie territories anyway. Maybe someone else could make an Australasia/Oceania map.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:08 am

Okay, I've spent so much time on this map already and it is clear to me that there will be a never ending list of problems people have with it. So I am submitting my final design for the look of the map. I will not add any other countries for reasons I have stated previously.

I am happy to take suggestions to fiddle with little design issues, but mainly want to get the troop bonus' agreed upon.

If it's not good enough now, it's never going to be. I'm happy with it and I think it has come a long way playability wise. Yes, there are only 34 territories, but this is not a concern for me as it gives a good representation of the country and a different challenge for CC members.

So please, can any further comments only address the troop bonus issue and any design flaws (not map flaws). Thankyou all for your input, it has all been helpful in one way or another.

BD Juzza · Post by **BD Juzza** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:28 am

looks good however i think the background is to dark i like it how you had the background before that is the only thing i disagree with.

Teya · Post by **Teya** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:34 am

I like the map & am satisfied that its complete.
But I liked the first background you had.

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:39 am

KEYOGI wrote:
Marvaddin wrote:Again, I think you should consider to change Tennant Creek and Alice Springs border to a north-south oriented one. And looks like Victoria is even stronger in this version
If I do that, it creates choke points, it's the reason it was changed.

Whats your point? Some, I said SOME bottlenecks are good for the playability, usually. And it would be more accurate...

About the number of countries, 34 is a strange number... neutral armies with all numbers of players... Most people dislike them (right, PB

)... 5 players, each with 6 countries and neutrals with 4, wow

and imagine a continent with 2 or more of them, what bad option to take, since you are fighting with no real enemies (its normally considered a wasted continent). Well, 36 countries would reduce it to a minimum. It wouldnt be difficult, there is room for more, and Im sure it would make your map more popular, although its not reeeeeeeally necessary.

About visual, I didnt see the previous update, but the background is very dark again, almost invisible, we need a mid term

... and you should reduce the box with the unpassable borders legend, too much wasted space (its even possible cut off some pixels in the bottom, huh?) You changed the title to Modern Australia, why?

drainyou · Post by **drainyou** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:12 am

I like this background better. And your rivers and mountaions rock.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:30 pm

Marvaddin wrote:Well, 36 countries would reduce it to a minimum. It wouldnt be difficult, there is room for more, and Im sure it would make your map more popular, although its not reeeeeeeally necessary.

About visual, I didnt see the previous update, but the background is very dark again, almost invisible, we need a mid term ... and you should reduce the box with the unpassable borders legend, too much wasted space (its even possible cut off some pixels in the bottom, huh?) You changed the title to Modern Australia, why?

Where do you propose the extra two territories go? I feel Northern Territory is the obvious place, or maybe on in NT and one in Western Australia. I just don't want NT too hard to defend. I will adjust the territory line to North-South orientation next update though.

Modern Australia, because if two Aussie maps do make it onto the site, I wanted to make sure there was a clear difference between the two and I think it's only fair the first to get under way get the claim of just Australia all to itself. If you can think of a better name, I'm open to suggestions. I just picked this one as it represents current states (should the state/continent of Victoria be renamed Victoria & Tasmania) of the country more appropriately than the other Aussie map, which is more representative of the states 200 years ago.

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:35 pm

Well this map is moving right along...Lets see...

I'm not really sold on the left to right connection between the coasts. I understand the use of it, as it is to keep the map from being so linear (but it still feels as if it is) and to increase playability border wise, but it seems out of place in a map such as this. (I.E. it works fine in the world map, consider it is round). I don't think things should be thrown into maps as a quick fix.

The bonus are interesting, but it feels like they are uninspired. As someone mentioned earlier on in the thread, the 'twin continents'. Having a vast majority of such continents really cuts the map in half in imagination. I understand you are trying to keep things they way they are, but playability should not suffer because you are doing so. Check out the Accurate World Map. The cartographer is striving for accuracy, but also taking care to keep playability in mind. Maps can't be one way street. You cannot sacrifice playability for aesthetics or vice versa. They need to work hand in hand, to make a truly good map.

Right now it feels like you are suffering from the 'Freakshow Syndrome' (a nod to older Foundry Members and the history here). I know you are eager to get this map up and going, but many of the best maps have taken longer than a few days to make. To really make a great map, it needs to be disected again and again, and taken with an open mind by everyone, the Foundry and the cartographer. Remember, even though you are making this map, you aren't specifically making this map for yourself. The whole community must be kept in mind, when making a map.

I'm also curious to hear what Jas thinks, as I agree with Happy's comments earlier, about taking a project out from under someone.

Anyways, it is coming along.

--Andy

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:13 pm

Thanks for the comments Andy.

My main issue with this map is that changes seem to be going around in circles. A change is made to accommodate one idea, and then there's someone else who doesn't like that change. I might be able to squeeze in two more territories, but beyond that and removing the link this map has nowhere else to go.

Is it worth continuing? I know there's enough support out there for the map, but is it enough to overcome the problems associated with a map of Australia.

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:18 pm

I think there is a place for an australia map. It perhaps suffers some problems other areas do not, but I think all of the problems can be solved. Honestly, this map has only been under construction for a little while, and I think given the time and input, it can easily mature into a great map. I'll put some more thoughts into it later.

--Andy

happysadfun · Post by **happysadfun** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:06 pm

Dublin Doogey once said that mapmaker knows best. if people are saying opposite things do whichever one you think would work and forget that the other guy even mentioned it.

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:21 pm

I'm not so sure I agree with that last statement...take the 'Freakshow Episode'.

(Use the search feature...put freakshow in the author box and search the foundry for indochina

)

--Andy

Spockers · Post by **Spockers** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:22 pm

You will have to let us newbies in on what this "Freakshow" thing means...

DublinDoogey · Post by **DublinDoogey** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:42 pm

happysadfun wrote:Dublin Doogey once said that mapmaker knows best. if people are saying opposite things do whichever one you think would work and forget that the other guy even mentioned it.

I did say that, but at the same time you have to make sure that the community is truly happy with the map. I know that everyone cannot be pleased, but the mapmaker should strive to please as many people as possible. There is a fine line between the mapmaker knowing best and the mapmaker being a stubborn know-it-all.

To KEYOGI, your map looks great, and if I knew a whole lot about playablity issues (I'm still learning) then I could say more about those. One of the most important things I've learned about making a map for CC is that it takes time and patience, and then more time and more patience. I think I took them all out of my photobucket, and so they would no longer be on the site, but I made at least fifteen versions of my map, and that isn't counting the modifications I made that I saved under existing file names.

I guess what I'm saying is not to rush it, take the time to listen to what people say. Your map is awesome already, and, like a fine wine, given time to mature a bit, to sit and be discussed and modified, it will become even greater.

Hoff · Post by **Hoff** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:01 pm

someone said that background is too dark. I disagree, i like how it is dark. It looks really nice. good job.

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:16 pm

KEYOGI wrote:Where do you propose the extra two territories go? I feel Northern Territory is the obvious place, or maybe on in NT and one in Western Australia. I just don't want NT too hard to defend. I will adjust the territory line to North-South orientation next update though.

Modern Australia, because if two Aussie maps do make it onto the site, I wanted to make sure there was a clear difference between the two and I think it's only fair the first to get under way get the claim of just Australia all to itself. If you can think of a better name, I'm open to suggestions. I just picked this one as it represents current states (should the state/continent of Victoria be renamed Victoria & Tasmania) of the country more appropriately than the other Aussie map, which is more representative of the states 200 years ago.

Well, 2 more territories... yeah, NT and Western Australia are the obvious options... I would like to have, instead, maybe a medium continent, like 7 countries (since now we have only small and big ones), and a bigger one, maybe even 10 or sort of. This could help us having some continent variety, like we said. We all know you dont want change states frontiers, so its maybe difficult... I would think about I less country in Queensland, maybe 2 more in Western Australia (a big rest place, so), and 1 more in South Australia, splitting Coober... but its only a suggestion, you know better if its possible. Maybe we can wait for more alternatives about this.

About title, well, I think there is no room for 2 Australia maps, unless one has a different feature... Your map is more popular, and it was jas fault, for never update that another map... I would like to be playing it for months now, but it was never finished, although only minor changes were necessary; so, for me, you can claim Australia title. And even why if we have an Ancient Australia and a Modern one, we call Australia the modern, of course.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:49 am

Thanks for the comments, they are very helpful. I'm putting this map on the backburner for now to let it gather some more feedback and also let jas decide what he's doing with his map. He was there with the Aussie map first, I'm not about to stomp all over his work if there's only going to be one Aussie map.

So keep the comments coming, I'll continue to update the map, but less often until I know the fate of jas' map.

Kayla · Post by **Kayla** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:00 pm

its too cluttered. hard to read, the other is much easier to read. and plus you have rivers where they dont matter which just adds confusion.

Triforce · Post by **Triforce** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:02 pm

Not at all.

Evil Pope · Post by **Evil Pope** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:45 pm

Triforce wrote:[Tangent]Andy I went and read that Freakshow-Indochina thread and I'm quite suprised by what happened. How can that map have gone live, and still be live, I might add, without the approval of any Moderator? What happened to the whole 'Foundry Brand' thing and all that other stuff that made the process seem incredibly impressive? Can I make a crappy map and force it through like that?[/Tangent]

This has nothing to do with this map.. Couldn't you post it elsewhere? And i'm pretty sure it went up before maps needed to be approved by Andy..

Triforce · Post by **Triforce** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:46 pm

Sorry to bother.

BD Juzza · Post by **BD Juzza** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:07 pm

Kayla wrote:its too cluttered. hard to read, the other is much easier to read. and plus you have rivers where they dont matter which just adds confusion.

I dont think the map is too cluttered i can see everything fine and for the rivers most of them do matter besides one or two and plus they add to the effect. With the background i still feel it is a lil to dark and Triforce if you have nothing to offer to this map go eles where and complain about it your post has absolutley nothing to with this map.

KEYOGI · Post by **KEYOGI** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:10 am

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions, I finally got around to making some changes. Impacts of the changes are:

Western Australia - 9 territories - 4 bordering 3 - bonus of 6
Queensland - 8 territories - 3 bordering 5 - bonus of 5
South Australia - 5 territories - 3 bordering 6 - bonus of 4
New South Wales - 5 territories - 3 bordering 3 - bonus of 3
Northern Territory - 5 territories - 3 bordering 5 - bonus of 3
Victoria - 4 territories - 2 bordering 2 - bonus of 2

Totals for map - 36 territories
Neutral territories - 0 for 3p, 4p, 6p - 1 for 5p

BD Juzza · Post by **BD Juzza** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:22 pm

Ok i like it lets just start the final forge, i will be playing it good job KEYOGI.