Abortion

[Napoleon Ier]

The Death penalty is reflective of a weak and immature state.

Abortion has to be legal but it needs to be accompanied by as much education of our youngsters prior to getting to that point, as possible!
It should never, as i have witnessed it, be used as a form of contraceptive.

When i was 16, i was in a very loving, sexual relationship with a girl of the same age. We always used a condom but once, in the midst of a particularly passionate and experimental expression of our lust, it split.
The massive sense of responsibility; we faced together!
Now for me, as a 16 year old Young man, the idea of fathering a baby whilst at school was daunting to the point of being unthinkable. i was mature for my years but were we all destined to falter along the road of forgotten-potential, struggle and uncertainty?
Tiptoeing towards this with my girlfriend was delicate but we were of the same mind.

So we took the morning off school, went to the health clinic together and she was given a morning after pill to pre-empt the pregnancy.

Now this was a massive moment, I still remember the stark, grey feeling as the blood no longer had the determination to make it all the way to my adolescent brain! But we were well grounded, well educated and just about equipped to deal with the situation.
It is likely that pregnancy would not even have been the result of our sinful passion, however we knew we could not afford that chance.

Religion may dictate that we should not have been having sex before we were ready to sire children... But then some Religions also dictate that their most stringent proponents be celebrate; abstaining from the temptation of the flesh. We can see how this responsibility can lead them to a more heinous temptation of the Flesh, as they culminate from their bottled desires.
The reality is that Abstinence, although worthy, is often a very self-destructive fallacy!

So were we two embryonic travellers to weigh the cost to all and let the hand of fate decide our future; 2 barely teenage parents and a patchy fraught future?

bugger that! it is a frigging ridiculous course to take, we took the correct one!


A lack of education, coupled with teenage sex and the absence of: contraceptive; morning-after pill and, as a last resort; abortion! is why we see so many buggered, ill-equipped children begetting children!
Then what do we end up with tragedy left and right! Father figures without the ability to even guide themselves and mothers habitually crippled by an unnecessary responsibility.. not a good foundation for a child and not a good base for society.

Sex! i am all for it! Provided it is not brushed under the carpet by the sanctimonious guilt-sellers! Those who, let's face it, are not qualified to give direction upon it!

A morning after pill destroys a homo sapiens. It is therefore murder. It must therefore be illegal. Inconvient for you and your girlfriend? Perhaps. But there are many people who's existance inconvience me.I don't have a right to kill them, however.

[suggs]

Jim, I wish you ruled the world.
Seriously, I was shouting hear, hear all through that.
What a great, loving, fun, tolerant, wise out look you have on the world.
YOU RULE!

[jiminski]

It is unfortunate Nappy but your view is evil masquerading as good.

[Napoleon Ier]

Jim, I wish you ruled the world.
Seriously, I was shouting hear, hear all through that.
What a great, loving, fun, tolerant, wise out look you have on the world.
YOU RULE!

Suggs...I'm in pain. You're actually making this read painful for me.

[Napoleon Ier]

It is unfortunate Nappy but your view is evil masquerading as good.

Oh? And I assume you have some long, complex and strikingly brilliant a priori proof of this which will baffle us all?

...What's that you say? Oh, you're just regurgitating pointless, pseudo-profound politically correct bullshit you didn't even come up with in the first place. How unfortunate.

[tzor]

Besides, if abortion were made illegal and anyone caught performing them executed or deproted to forced-labor camps, I doubt the rates would be all that high.

Yes, let's all become totalitarian societies!!!

Because that will be the end-result of such things.

Will it? Plenty of non-totalitarian regimes have installed death penalties for murder. What I propose is such a penalty for one of the most heinous forms of it.

Personally I think it's the "forced-labor camps" that brings out the totalitarian in people. Secondly there are in those nations some pretty strict notions as to what constitutes "murder" in the degree that is typically reserved for the death penalty. There are the self defense arguments ... this goes beyond the self ... consider the following quote from a Florida web page on the matter of the use of handguns. Use of Deadly Force for Lawful Self-Defense

Q. When can I use deadly force in the defense of another person?

A. If you see someone who is being attacked, you can use deadly force to defend him/her if the circumstances would justify that person's use of deadly force in his/her own defense. In other words, you "stand in the shoes" of the person being attacked.

[suggs]

Jim, I wish you ruled the world.
Seriously, I was shouting hear, hear all through that.
What a great, loving, fun, tolerant, wise out look you have on the world.
YOU RULE!

Suggs...I'm in pain. You're actually making this read painful for me.

Good. And the pain you are feeling is infinitely more than that experienced by the aborted foetus.
I haven't heard you admit yet your illogical claptrap is based on your Cultish belief in a bloke coming back from the dead.

[Napoleon Ier]

Besides, if abortion were made illegal and anyone caught performing them executed or deproted to forced-labor camps, I doubt the rates would be all that high.

Yes, let's all become totalitarian societies!!!

Because that will be the end-result of such things.

Will it? Plenty of non-totalitarian regimes have installed death penalties for murder. What I propose is such a penalty for one of the most heinous forms of it.

Personally I think it's the "forced-labor camps" that brings out the totalitarian in people. Secondly there are in those nations some pretty strict notions as to what constitutes "murder" in the degree that is typically reserved for the death penalty. There are the self defense arguments ... this goes beyond the self ... consider the following quote from a Florida web page on the matter of the use of handguns. Use of Deadly Force for Lawful Self-Defense

Q. When can I use deadly force in the defense of another person?

A. If you see someone who is being attacked, you can use deadly force to defend him/her if the circumstances would justify that person's use of deadly force in his/her own defense. In other words, you "stand in the shoes" of the person being attacked.

That's different...self-defence or manslaughter by mistakenly shooting an attacker are radically different to aking a vacuum pump to an innocent baby and mashing it's limbs to a pulp before imploding it's torso and liquidating it's head.

Forced labor camps are practically morally indistinguishable from prisons.

What's the real issue here?

[Napoleon Ier]

Jim, I wish you ruled the world.
Seriously, I was shouting hear, hear all through that.
What a great, loving, fun, tolerant, wise out look you have on the world.
YOU RULE!

Suggs...I'm in pain. You're actually making this read painful for me.

Good. And the pain you are feeling is infinitely more than that experienced by the aborted foetus.
I haven't heard you admit yet your illogical claptrap is based on your Cultish belief in a bloke coming back from the dead.

It isn't. It's based on my belief in God, an objective moral standard...but if I didn't believe in God, I'm still pretty sure I'd retain belief in morality, and hence still be pro-life.

[suggs]

The real issue is that you don't like individuals making free choices Nap.

[Napoleon Ier]

The real issue is that you don't like individuals making free choices Nap.

Suggs...now, now, you're above the other...lesser intellects polluting this thread, you understand that's not why I oppose abortion.

[jiminski]

It is unfortunate Nappy but your view is evil masquerading as good.

Oh? And I assume you have some long, complex and strikingly brilliant a priori proof of this which will baffle us all?

...What's that you say? Oh, you're just regurgitating pointless, pseudo-profound politically correct bullshit you didn't even come up with in the first place. How unfortunate.

not really Nappy, what i am saying are my thoughts, for which i will take responsibility for, good or bad!

My point is that easy moralisation; the diktat of which emanates from an antiquated and irrelevant source does far more harm than good.

to arrogantly hold these things as an epistle filled with ultimate truth, may be an easy and 'fulfilling' framework for your life but it is not drenched in human kindness or understanding.
Christ; the lover of Whores and the sanctuary to the sinner, would be ashamed of you little brother.

[suggs]

Your belief in God isn't an objective moral standard. Its just stuff you've been brainwashed to believe by that cult you're in.
I am quite serious, Christainity is nothing more than a large cult, you know that Nap.

Without that nonsense in your head, I believe your libertarian principles would recognise the right for people to choose what to do with their own bodies.

Seriously, Nap - if you want to become a credible thinker, you have to ditch that God silliness.

[suggs]

I forgot about the whores and the sinners stuff!
Christ has my vote, after all.
YAY CHRIST, LETS f*ck!

[Napoleon Ier]

Your belief in God isn't an objective moral standard. Its just stuff you've been brainwashed to believe by that cult you're in.
I am quite serious, Christainity is nothing more than a large cult, you know that Nap.

Without that nonsense in your head, I believe your libertarian principles would recognise the right for people to choose what to do with their own bodies.

Seriously, Nap - if you want to become a redible thinker, you have to ditch that God silliness.

Tell that to Kant.

In answer to the point above, obviously the right to dispose of your body as you please is limied by mine to the same.

Your right to move a fist through the air is limited by chin's right to exist in that air.

A woman's right to have sharp metal prongs and high pressure vacuum pumps inserted in her womb is limited by her baby's right to inhabit it.

[tzor]

A morning after pill destroys a homo sapiens. It is therefore murder. It must therefore be illegal. Inconvient for you and your girlfriend? Perhaps. But there are many people who's existance inconvience me.I don't have a right to kill them, however.

A morning after pill prevents implantation in the womb. Unfortunately this happens all the time in the real world. Since the woman doesn't know for certain if there is a embryo and since it is impossible to determine if the embryo would have implanted had the pill not be used it would be a nighmare to prove as there is a clear reasonable doubt from the start. it could be a number of things, but not murder.

[Napoleon Ier]

A morning after pill destroys a homo sapiens. It is therefore murder. It must therefore be illegal. Inconvient for you and your girlfriend? Perhaps. But there are many people who's existance inconvience me.I don't have a right to kill them, however.

A morning after pill prevents implantation in the womb. Unfortunately this happens all the time in the real world. Since the woman doesn't know for certain if there is a embryo and since it is impossible to determine if the embryo would have implanted had the pill not be used it would be a nighmare to prove as there is a clear reasonable doubt from the start. it could be a number of things, but not murder.

Well, whatever. It's like setting up an IED by a roadside. You're not sure imperialist capitalist western american pigs will get blown to bits by it, but you bloody well hope it will if they come past it.

[suggs]

We're going round in circles.
Its not a baby.
Its not alive.
It has no rights.

Good point about Kant though, he some how managed to produce great work on logic and ethics, without that Jewish cobblers confusing him
It did confuse his metaphysics though, which partly explains why its such garbage.

[tzor]

That's different...self-defence or manslaughter by mistakenly shooting an attacker are radically different to aking a vacuum pump to an innocent baby and mashing it's limbs to a pulp before imploding it's torso and liquidating it's head.

Forced labor camps are practically morally indistinguishable from prisons.

The standard exception "in the case of the life of the woman" would fall under the notion of self defense of the other.

Forced labor camps are not the same as prisons. There is an element of slavery implied within the notion of a forced labor camps. There is also an element of torture as well because generally speaking most labor in labor camps exists only for the sake of submitting the prisoner to harsh conditions ... the actual results of the labor is generally wasted.

[Napoleon Ier]

It is unfortunate Nappy but your view is evil masquerading as good.

Oh? And I assume you have some long, complex and strikingly brilliant a priori proof of this which will baffle us all?

...What's that you say? Oh, you're just regurgitating pointless, pseudo-profound politically correct bullshit you didn't even come up with in the first place. How unfortunate.

not really Nappy, what i am saying are my thoughts, for which i will take responsibility for, good or bad!

My point is that easy moralisation; the diktat of which emanates from an antiquated and irrelevant source does far more harm than good.

to arrogantly hold these things as an epistle filled with ultimate truth, may be an easy and 'fulfilling' framework for your life but it is not drenched in human kindness or understanding.
Christ; the lover of Whores and the sanctuary to the sinner, would be ashamed of you little brother.

I'm still not getting any readings on my "coherent-line-of-reasoning-o-meter"...must just be more inane ramblings of a sexually frustrated bespectacled geek with an acorn-crotch. Will she post an argument, or just persist in regurgitating patronizing and generic politically correct bullshit about love and peace and tolerance and happy elves dancing around under a rainbow aborting white foetuses?

The suspense is literally killing me...

[got tonkaed]

A morning after pill destroys a homo sapiens. It is therefore murder. It must therefore be illegal. Inconvient for you and your girlfriend? Perhaps. But there are many people who's existance inconvience me.I don't have a right to kill them, however.

A morning after pill prevents implantation in the womb. Unfortunately this happens all the time in the real world. Since the woman doesn't know for certain if there is a embryo and since it is impossible to determine if the embryo would have implanted had the pill not be used it would be a nighmare to prove as there is a clear reasonable doubt from the start. it could be a number of things, but not murder.

Well, whatever. It's like setting up an IED by a roadside. You're not sure imperialist capitalist western american pigs will get blown to bits by it, but you bloody well hope it will if they come past it.

just admit it, you are apart of some new age pro sperm lobby. When this news gets out, your campaign is going to be pretty negatively affected.

[jiminski]

Your belief in God isn't an objective moral standard. Its just stuff you've been brainwashed to believe by that cult you're in.
I am quite serious, Christainity is nothing more than a large cult, you know that Nap.

Without that nonsense in your head, I believe your libertarian principles would recognise the right for people to choose what to do with their own bodies.

Seriously, Nap - if you want to become a redible thinker, you have to ditch that God silliness.

Tell that to Kant.

In answer to the point above, obviously the right to dispose of your body as you please is limied by mine to the same.

Your right to move a fist through the air is limited by chin's right to exist in that air.

A woman's right to have sharp metal prongs and high pressure vacuum pumps inserted in her womb is limited by her baby's right to inhabit it.

this is slightly ridiculous Nappy.. you are becoming more vague because you are teetering on the edge of your understanding... you do this sometimes when you are not entirely convinced by your own position.... i hope!

But your point is undermined by the very ephemeral nature of 'right'. This can not be an answer in itself due to its subjective definition.

If you look at the term as more akin to 'right' as the opposite of 'wrong' it will help you use it more aptly.

[Snorri1234]

You're not a facist - as you say, you believe in free trade and capitalism (difficult for a genuine fascist to believe in either).

But your Achilles heel, Nap, is this religious/cultish nonsense.
Thats the only reason you're against abortion. Have the guts to admit it.

Yes, he may not be a fascist, but he sure is totalitarian when it comes to social issues.

No, I believe individual rights. You have a serious misconception of the abortion debate. If I perceive the foetus to be human, then surely it is incompatible with a free society for his rights to be ignored?

Of course, the death penalty I advocate is merely a temporary, deterrent (and hence justified) measure. It's really of no relevance, however. Let's forget, it was half facetious in any case...

Now, social issues and economic are intrinsically related...a minimum wage (blatant arbitrary restriction of capitalist acts between consenting parties), social or economic? Eh, snorri? Is it, furthermore, any co-incidence that free societies have always economically been free, as well? To subjugate individuals economically is to subjugate them socially. The two fields are indissociable. The freedom to establish trading relations with whom I wish, if they consent, is justified in the same way as the freedom for you to have sexual relations with whomever you want to,if they consent. The moral grounds are the same-economic issues are a mere, blurred subset of social freedoms.

On the issue of gay rights, I've explained countless times how marriage isn't a right but a societal, collective grant, a social institution which only normal couples can access. Paraphilic couples, (be they homosexual, incestuous, bestial, paedophilic, or whatever) cannot access it. It isn't, in short, a rights issue.

Now, were I to impose a Catholic state, snorri, you would be banned from taking the Lord's name in vain, masturbating, eating meat on fridays during Lent, viewing pornography, and forced to attend regular Mass, confess your sins, say ten Hail Marys ever night and go on pilgrimage once a year.

But I don't advocate that...I only advocate a free society which is by nature and necessarily respectful of individual rights. There's room for disagreement within that (I recognise the rights of the foetus, differ on the issue of society's right to stable instituions of marriage...), but fundamentally, I am libertarian, you are, sadly not.

I support people's rights to do as they please so long as it doesn't infringe on other's rights to do the same, you, however, have delusional dreams of a common societal good toward which resources and labor are collectively and if necessary coercivelly. directed.

Ah, more bullshit from you. Ignoring the actual points.

The fact is that we don't consider the foetus to be human. You can claim all day that it is, but frankly you're bullshitting all the way back to bangcock.

[jiminski]

It is unfortunate Nappy but your view is evil masquerading as good.

Oh? And I assume you have some long, complex and strikingly brilliant a priori proof of this which will baffle us all?

...What's that you say? Oh, you're just regurgitating pointless, pseudo-profound politically correct bullshit you didn't even come up with in the first place. How unfortunate.

not really Nappy, what i am saying are my thoughts, for which i will take responsibility for, good or bad!

My point is that easy moralisation; the diktat of which emanates from an antiquated and irrelevant source does far more harm than good.

to arrogantly hold these things as an epistle filled with ultimate truth, may be an easy and 'fulfilling' framework for your life but it is not drenched in human kindness or understanding.
Christ; the lover of Whores and the sanctuary to the sinner, would be ashamed of you little brother.

I'm still not getting any readings on my "coherent-line-of-reasoning-o-meter"...must just be more inane ramblings of a sexually frustrated bespectacled geek with an acorn-crotch. Will she post an argument, or just persist in regurgitating patronizing and generic politically correct bullshit about love and peace and tolerance and happy elves dancing around under a rainbow aborting white foetuses?

The suspense is literally killing me...

please do not resort to gibberish as a debating tool.

[Napoleon Ier]

I see...so there are no rights? So laws against murder, are, for you, wrong?

Please shut up and pick up a book, you waste of oxygen, your pathetic attempts at looking like you can debate a point are embarrassing you and painful for me to read.