Correctness on games and gays

[Jucdor]

I don't know if it's appropriate to talk this in public here, but I don't know that many Americans and I really need some help to know how tender this issue is.

Ok here's the deal. Our company has made a new board game that's coming out in September. Now is the time to finish up with the illustration and the rules. I must state that I simply love how our cooperation with our American publisher has gone. The publisher has been very supportive and has understood our needs and wishes, but the latest event was quite surprising - and out of the box. The game that's coming out is about life in the fast lane and nightclub life and players act as cupido trying to make sure the right people meet at the right time and hopefully fall in love or at least have a hell of a good time.

Although our cooperation with the publisher has gone very well, they changed without asking us anything this part:

Rules of attraction
In order for two dancers to become a couple they must:
1)Be in the adjacent squares (diagonal isn’t close enough)
2)Both dancers must be in the multicolored area
3)They must have at least two qualities in common. When it comes to gender the rule 3 is filled with opposite gender.

Into this:

The Rules of Attraction

In order for two dancers to become a couple they must:
1)Be in adjacent squares (diagonal isn’t close enough);
2)Be in the 9-square multicolored area in the very center of the dance floor;
3)Be of the opposite gender;
4)AND have at least one other “quality” (below) in common.


Now this changes the game quite radically into discriminating gay people by preventing such couples from existing in our game. I don't know if they've done this on purpose or just as an act to streamline the game. What do you think? I mean already in our version gay couples earned fewer points than straight couples, because they practically could not have found the perfect couple unless certain special rules applied. And the possibility to form couples from same sex dancers is not encouraged anywhere - the part that I wrote is all there is about it!

[tzor]

This is really a hard one. When I looked at the two sets of rules one thing immediately was noticable ...

They must have at least two qualities in common.
vs
at least one other “quality”

Now this may sound like a silly notion but looking for 1 of X is actually simplier to explain than looking for 2 out of X. I can really see rule designers (especially American ones) wanting to "simplify" the choices to one of the above instead of trying to use a substitution rule to replace the most commonnly applied rule especially when they know that in some cases people may decide to overide the revised rule #3. (Or in fact invert the rule for the gay community edition.)

Moving it into a seperate rule can actually make this process easier, since home brew rules are often applied to board games depending on the circumstances. Consider Monopoly for example, or even Risk.

Thus the pressure to keep the rules as simple as possible and let people adjust them as needed.

[greenoaks]

i can't see the problem.

your first rule 3 says different gender, your second rule 3 says different gender.

[suggs]

who cares

[Anarkistsdream]

i can't see the problem.

your first rule 3 says different gender, your second rule 3 says different gender.

No, actually, the first rule says that if they are of the opposite gender, then Rule 3 is filled. If they are of the same gender, they must have two qualities that are the same.

The second one says they MUST be of opposite genders...

I personally think that this is bullshit, and you guys should fight for your way....

[suggs]

Gay people are different

[Jucdor]

i can't see the problem.

your first rule 3 says different gender, your second rule 3 says different gender.

You see, in the game there are four visible qualities (plus one hidden one). What we want to have is that two visible qualities must match and what they want is that two visible qualities match and one of them is the gender (so only man & woman couples allowed).

[Jucdor]

i can't see the problem.

your first rule 3 says different gender, your second rule 3 says different gender.

No, actually, the first rule says that if they are of the opposite gender, then Rule 3 is filled. If they are of the same gender, they must have two qualities that are the same.

The second one says they MUST be of opposite genders...

I personally think that this is bullshit, and you guys should fight for your way....

Thanks. If I didn't personally like them so much I would be saying that's bullshit as well, but now I want to make sure it's conscious change from their part before making too harsh accusations. I know the German rules as well as Finnish rules are going to be our way, but this complicates things a bit.

[Anarkistsdream]

You will have to tell me the name of the game in America once you know... I would like to play it!

[Bertros Bertros]

America just isn't like Europe, Jucdor. Politically they have a strong conservative backbone which has less tolerance for same sex relationships as is generally the case in Europe. I think its really a case that you need one edition for the US market which excludes same sex relationships and another for the Europe market which doesn't draw the distinction, that way you can please more of the people more of the time. Its the very reason that games, novels, movies, tv series etc are re-published, edited or even reproduced for the US/European/Asian markets as a matter of course. As a general rule the consumer there has understandably different expectations to the consumer here and so to maximise your success you need a subtly different product.

[Anarkistsdream]

America just isn't like Europe, Jucdor. Politically they have a strong conservative backbone which has less tolerance for same sex relationships as is generally the case in Europe. I think its really a case that you need one edition for the US market which excludes same sex relationships and another for the Europe market which doesn't draw the distinction, that way you can please more of the people more of the time. Its the very reason that games, novels, movies, tv series etc are re-published, edited or even reproduced for the US market as a matter of course. As a general rule the consumer there has understandably different expectations to the consumer here and so to maximise your success you need a subtly different product.

Very true...

And, as long as Americans are able to buy the Euro versions, I would think it would be even less of a big deal.

Another possibility would be releasing both...

[Jucdor]

who cares

Actually I do - a lot. And I think once the game hits the stores then a lot of other people will care as well - otherwise they wouldn't have changed it or what's worse we might get questions why gay couples are not allowed in our game. What disturbs me most is that I tried to make sure I don't have to make stand on this issue as we're not yet that famous company to be able to say "it's either our way or the high way" and thus people who have problems with homosexuality doesn't have to think about it while playing this game and it's almost always disadvantage to make gay couples. But now I have to make a stand to just keep it in the game.

[reminisco]

are there any guns in this game?

[Jucdor]

You will have to tell me the name of the game in America once you know... I would like to play it!

Oh, the name issue hasn't been discussed. It's the name we presented them with. Now that I once again want to make sure (and this isn't a liptalk, but pure fact) that our cooperation with them has been brilliant. Out of the companies we've negotiated I've liked them best from the very beginning.

So the name of the game is The Club. You can find some more info on from our board game portfolio here: http://www.tuonelaproductions.com/game_portfolio.php. And as I said, it's coming out in September - in International Spieltage in Essen at the latest.

[Jucdor]

America just isn't like Europe, Jucdor. Politically they have a strong conservative backbone which has less tolerance for same sex relationships as is generally the case in Europe. I think its really a case that you need one edition for the US market which excludes same sex relationships and another for the Europe market which doesn't draw the distinction, that way you can please more of the people more of the time. Its the very reason that games, novels, movies, tv series etc are re-published, edited or even reproduced for the US/European/Asian markets as a matter of course. As a general rule the consumer there has understandably different expectations to the consumer here and so to maximise your success you need a subtly different product.

This is what I feared, but I would really like to hear it also from Americans to know if there's any hope to change the bit. Afterall English is the universal language and thanks to printing costs there's probably going to be only one English version and if it doesn't allow gay couples I'd hate to have my name printed on it. The big countries aren't a problem, and neither is Nordic countries thanks to our existance, but East European countries could end up with the same English rules.

[Jucdor]

are there any guns in this game?

Well some male dancers do have big... ummm... equipment as their hidden trait, but other than that no.

[Anarkistsdream]

You will have to tell me the name of the game in America once you know... I would like to play it!

Oh, the name issue hasn't been discussed. It's the name we presented them with. Now that I once again want to make sure (and this isn't a liptalk, but pure fact) that our cooperation with them has been brilliant. Out of the companies we've negotiated I've liked them best from the very beginning.

So the name of the game is The Club. You can find some more info on from our board game portfolio here: http://www.tuonelaproductions.com/game_portfolio.php. And as I said, it's coming out in September - in International Spieltage in Essen at the latest.

Primal Men looks awesome, too!

[suggs]

Gays like penises.

[Jucdor]

Primal Men looks awesome, too!

Thanks! It's surprising though that out of the four we have finished that's the only game we haven't had any deal negotiations yet, although user groups and press has showed it maybe biggest interest. Hopefully in October in Spiel we manage to craft a deal with that one as well.

[Jucdor]

Gays like penises.

Yup, and only men do gay things .

[suggs]

Lesbians are women.
Lesbians are gays.
So you are wrong.

[Snorri1234]

Gays like penises.

So do I.

Well my own at least.

[suggs]

I like your penis too.

[Snorri1234]

Wanna touch it?

[suggs]

Could i use it as a pretend microphone?