After Long Await, Periodic Madness- v16 p 13[i][vacation]

[wcaclimbing]

Why is this still in map ideas?

Territory names
DONE
Working legends
DONE
Speculative Bonuses
DONE
Tentative Border Divisions
DONE
A working image done in some kind of graphic software. Pencil drawn images and images done on paint will not be accpected.
DONE
Two quality updates must be provided.
DONE

What's missing?

[shadowsteel9]

Why is this still in map ideas?

Territory names
DONE
Working legends
DONE
Speculative Bonuses
DONE
Tentative Border Divisions
DONE
A working image done in some kind of graphic software. Pencil drawn images and images done on paint will not be accpected.
DONE
Two quality updates must be provided.
DONE

What's missing?

no idea

[bryguy]

Why is this still in map ideas?

Territory names
DONE
Working legends
DONE
Speculative Bonuses
DONE
Tentative Border Divisions
DONE
A working image done in some kind of graphic software. Pencil drawn images and images done on paint will not be accpected.
DONE
Two quality updates must be provided.
DONE

What's missing?

no idea

interest

[TaCktiX]

One thing that I've thought about: What if Hydrogen had some really good bombardment privileges (like every single Transition Metal or something similarly ridiculous), but it could be attacked by every single anion (F, Cl, Br, etc.)? Right now it's Australia 2.0 because only Lithium (Li) can attack it and it gets a +1 bonus.

Also noted earlier by shadowsteel was the large amount of territory on this map. Assuming every territory is populated with a player, that's 14 territories per player in an 8 player game. Instant 4 bonus. In a 4 player game, it's 29 territories, a 7 bonus. With the +1 instant Hydrogen bonus and the +1 per 3's and +2 per 4 bonuses present on the map, someone could get a lucky drop and take out a LOT on the first turn. Certainly not early-game behavior. So what's the possibility of having neutrals on a good bit of the map? Say all players are restricted to starting positions within Periods III-VII and Groups 3-16 (no Alkali, no Alkaline, no Halogens, no Noble Gases, no Lanthanide, no Actinide, only Transition Metals and a portion of Other Metals, Semiconductors, and Organic Metals). That keeps the better bonuses locked up at game beginning and forces expansion out. Or is that too restricted? Please float some neutral suggestions.

EDIT: Also on the subject of making sure the bonuses don't start the game out of hand: what if there was no territory bonus at all? Getting 3 territories in Transition Metals is fairly easy, and at starting drop it's very likely a person would have 4-5 of them. If not no bonus, perhaps a fixed one so people don't get the drop shaft. Anybody else thinking along this tangent?

[shadowsteel9]

in regards to hydrogen, here's another idea to think about. hydrogen forms what are called hydrogen bonds between its self and highly electromagnetic atoms. I propose letting it bond with those atoms. they include N,O,F,Cl,Br, and Kr. The symbol could be the lowercase symbol for the greek symbol delta, with an negagive symbol next to it and placed in the bottom corner of the element

[lighteningbrain]

in regards to hydrogen, here's another idea to think about. hydrogen forms what are called hydrogen bonds between its self and highly electromagnetic atoms. I propose letting it bond with those atoms. they include N,O,F,Cl,Br, and Kr. The symbol could be the lowercase symbol for the greek symbol delta, with an negagive symbol next to it and placed in the bottom corner of the element

I like that idea, it adds another layey of complexity to the map.

Also, in regards to bonuses, could it be that you get a bonus for holdig any three transistion metals in the same period as each other; instead of just any three - which could give pretty big starting bonuses as mentioned before.

[Marvaddin]

Just to say, in my opinion there are 2 things that never will be good ideas, they were tried several times, but the whole concept is bad:

1 - keyboard
2 - periodic table

I think this is far from being a map, its really just an idea. Well, of course you can continue, but I think there is no way its going to be good.

Spend time in another project is my suggestion, just my 2 cents.

[TaCktiX]

...And make the XML that much simpler. I guess I'll have to separate the Lanthanide and Transition bonuses, since Lanthanides by definition are on the same period, but adding that text should be easy. Expect Version 10 sometime tonight.

[shadowsteel9]

well it looks like were movin in a good direction

[CatfishJohnson]

Just to say, in my opinion there are 2 things that never will be good ideas, they were tried several times, but the whole concept is bad:

1 - keyboard
2 - periodic table

I think this is far from being a map, its really just an idea. Well, of course you can continue, but I think there is no way its going to be good.

Spend time in another project is my suggestion, just my 2 cents.

lol owned much

[TaCktiX]

Just to say, in my opinion there are 2 things that never will be good ideas, they were tried several times, but the whole concept is bad:

1 - keyboard
2 - periodic table

I think this is far from being a map, its really just an idea. Well, of course you can continue, but I think there is no way its going to be good.

Spend time in another project is my suggestion, just my 2 cents.

Your opinion is misinformed. Though I have not checked, I am certain that all of the other previous attempts at the Periodic Table were very simple, with nothing to break the map up and make it easier to move around on. 118 territories is a tall order for any map. And yet shadowsteel has taken some basic chemistry and turned it into perfectly plausible game mechanics that allow for easy mobility around the map without making it impossible to hold anything.

And as for it being "far from a map," nothing could be further from the truth. Reference higher up on this same page for wcaclimbing commenting that the map has fulfilled all requirements, save sufficient interest, to be moved to the Foundry proper. Just because you don't think it's a good idea does not mean that others don't think it is. [/rant]

[shadowsteel9]

Amen

Also Tack has worked hard on the graphics and i believe come up with a winner

[takman2k]

You put a impassible line down, in between a bonus area. The blue on the right side in the area of II to V and 13 to 16. I would suggest to bridge an element together so you can keep the bonus together.

Do you really need so many directions you can attack and attack from? Maybe more borders are needed.

I do realize thats how the table is separated, but maybe rearrange/bridge things together more with more boundries.

I cannot compare this map, however, I would play this map. I think it will be a blast. Any chance I can get some free or traded help (being very inexperienced, but wanting a name on a map) on my Egypt '67? Its gone through many phases and retries since the Forum posts, however, its stalled right now.

[TaCktiX]

You put a impassible line down, in between a bonus area. The blue on the right side in the area of II to V and 13 to 16. I would suggest to bridge an element together so you can keep the bonus together.

Ah, the beauty of Cations and Anions, allowing you to switch to either side of that "impassable" line with relative ease.

Do you really need so many directions you can attack and attack from? Maybe more borders are needed.

I do realize thats how the table is separated, but maybe rearrange/bridge things together more with more boundries.

Due to the relatively easy-to-get bonus of Transition Metals, its excessive number of attack directions is justified. Also, the structure of the table anywhere else keeps bonuses possible while encouraging "total chaos" play on the Transitions. A game's army state will likely be the same as them in chemistry: always changing until stability (a winner) is reached.

[isaiah40]

One thing that I've thought about: What if Hydrogen had some really good bombardment privileges (like every single Transition Metal or something similarly ridiculous), but it could be attacked by every single anion (F, Cl, Br, etc.)? Right now it's Australia 2.0 because only Lithium (Li) can attack it and it gets a +1 bonus.

Also noted earlier by shadowsteel was the large amount of territory on this map. Assuming every territory is populated with a player, that's 14 territories per player in an 8 player game. Instant 4 bonus. In a 4 player game, it's 29 territories, a 7 bonus. With the +1 instant Hydrogen bonus and the +1 per 3's and +2 per 4 bonuses present on the map, someone could get a lucky drop and take out a LOT on the first turn. Certainly not early-game behavior. So what's the possibility of having neutrals on a good bit of the map? Say all players are restricted to starting positions within Periods III-VII and Groups 3-16 (no Alkali, no Alkaline, no Halogens, no Noble Gases, no Lanthanide, no Actinide, only Transition Metals and a portion of Other Metals, Semiconductors, and Organic Metals). That keeps the better bonuses locked up at game beginning and forces expansion out. Or is that too restricted? Please float some neutral suggestions.

EDIT: Also on the subject of making sure the bonuses don't start the game out of hand: what if there was no territory bonus at all? Getting 3 territories in Transition Metals is fairly easy, and at starting drop it's very likely a person would have 4-5 of them. If not no bonus, perhaps a fixed one so people don't get the drop shaft. Anybody else thinking along this tangent?

Good idea!I like the idea of a lot of neutrals. Then again if no transitions, then what would be the use of having them on the board (IMHO)? I would think that if the transitions are neutral, no one would attack them. (Of course I could be misunderstanding you!) Maybe only having 5 or 6 transitions available at the start of the game with high a number of neutrals in the rest would deter those that want to get their armies built up fast from getting them.

[bryguy]

some comments


I dont like that this map is mostly made up of 2 letters per territ
The map is WAY to confusing of who can attack who
I cant read half these words
Who would want to do more chemistry? school is already bad enough!

[TaCktiX]

some comments


I dont like that this map is mostly made up of 2 letters per territ

The territory names will be more detailed in the XML. People get away with abbreviations all the time in their map, we just happen to be using standard form abbreviations (take that with a grain of NaCl why don't ya? ).

The map is WAY to confusing of who can attack who

In the bottom right of the map it says "Attack Directions." Then there's "Normal" showing a territory pointing toward 4 other territories. And then there's "Transition" which shows a territory pointing toward 8 other territories. I don't know how much clearer you can get than that. And if you're complaining about the Lanthanides and Actinides, the big neon green arrows should help you there.

I cant read half these words

A couple of the elements could use a resize (namely, Tungsten (W), Gold (Au), and Silver (Ag) at first glance). I'll see what I can do with a slight upsize of the harder-to-read ones. Some are a little stuck (like elements with Radioactivity on them), but those are almost universally readable.

Who would want to do more chemistry? school is already bad enough!

If you don't want to, don't play the map. I personally would love to play on a map like this, and I know I'm not the only one.

[CatfishJohnson]

i agree with tactix, one person doenst like it cause his personal preferences are in the way, teh rest of us, well...gg no re son, even if ur name has the first three letters of my name

[TaCktiX]

Version 10

Updates:
- Increased element text size near-universally (exception being Americium (Am) and all the triple-letter elements)
- Added Hydrogen bonds and explanation to map
- Clarified Transition Metal bonus

[Marvaddin]

Well, maybe you can get support to continue on it, they are quenching some really bad maps recently, so I wont say you I doubt you will suceed. But after your kind comment about basic chemistry becoming plausible game mechanics, I spent 5 minutes to read more carefully the map description, ... just to confirm its really bad. I knew it, there is no way to make a piece of shit like periodical table into a good map.

You really got a little mobility... just a little, because the movement rule you called normal. So, if I have O, and want conquer P, I need take N or S before... huh, what a mobility, huh? So you put the smart ionic connections, making things even more unholdable than before.

For example: I think a good strategy would be expand from Hydrogen. So, you could get 2 borders until you conquer K and Ca, and then you could with some more effort, maybe get both 1 and 2 columns having 4 borders, but what? All 13 territories on these columns are border ones, due to the bright idea of having ionic connections. In fact, in most 'continents' all territories are border ones: completely unholdable.

If there is a place where you can expand with a reasonable number of border, although it seems incredible at first look, its the Lanthanides / Actinides bar (4 borders), but those radioactive effects would be a pain, wouldnt it?

Plus the fact that the table is a very very ugly thing.

So, excuse me, but I not only think it has a complete lack of appeal (of course this is something personal, although I would qualify as mad someone trying to play risk at a PT in real life). Im sure the playability is very bad at this moment. Maybe you should try playing it in real life and see if it works.

[TaCktiX]

You really got a little mobility... just a little, because the movement rule you called normal. So, if I have O, and want conquer P, I need take N or S before... huh, what a mobility, huh? So you put the smart ionic connections, making things even more unholdable than before.

That lack of mobility on most bonuses will enhance their holdability, not limit it. As for the ionic bonds, I can readily see situations where a person would attack the opposing ion just to use as a buffer against getting attacked from that ion. Atypical gameplay, and I think that's a strong point. Not every map has to be cut/dried Risk to a T.

For example: I think a good strategy would be expand from Hydrogen. So, you could get 2 borders until you conquer K and Ca, and then you could with some more effort, maybe get both 1 and 2 columns having 4 borders, but what? All 13 territories on these columns are border ones, due to the bright idea of having ionic connections. In fact, in most 'continents' all territories are border ones: completely unholdable.

You're ignoring one fact that I've already taken to heart: early game there will be very low reasonable way to notch down the good bonuses. I think we'll need to up the bonus numbers for the territories to be more in keeping with the ionics, but that's a later change. Gameplay will start primarily in the Transitions. Getting 3 in a row for that quickie +1 isn't that hard, and will keep people in the game. I personally hate games where you're spread to kingdom come and don't have a chance of ever starting. In this map, that's almost impossible. And that mobility problem on the further reaches of the map? Transitions attack in all 8 directions. So the focus of gameplay early to mid game fully fits the requirements of a good Risk map. The edge bonuses are stalemate breakers as army sizes get bigger.

And one thing that's left unaddressed is whether there will be a neutral presence on the map. That's a can of worms I would appreciate anyone else to explore.

[Marvaddin]

As for the ionic bonds, I can readily see situations where a person would attack the opposing ion just to use as a buffer against getting attacked from that ion.

Hahahaha, really... What makes me to remember... that ion also has borders... But of course the smart player will conquer all of them, right? I agree, the bonuses are all very holdable once you conquer the whole map

I saw the improved mobility of the transitions, it dont saves the map gameplay, its bad. In fact, the mobility is low where it would be needed, and high were its just making areas unholdable, at direct connections. The neutral presence is the single thing that can make the 'map' a bit more playable, because you can have a time gap before people reaches you, although with this amount of direct connections, I doubt you have a good amount of locations to start and grow. Anyway, even if it works, once we have Age of Realms, Feudal Wars, etc, and other maps that use this idea and are better designed (and have much more appeal than the blocky thing), why would we need this one?

Hmmm, like I said before, you can continue if you want, but it wont be a very playable map. I thought about it already when it was tried 1st time... Nothing works to make it a good one, unless Im missing something very important. But ok, you can decide. Like I said, they are quenching some really bad maps, one more wouldnt be a difference

[bryguy]

The map is WAY to confusing of who can attack who

In the bottom right of the map it says "Attack Directions." Then there's "Normal" showing a territory pointing toward 4 other territories. And then there's "Transition" which shows a territory pointing toward 8 other territories. I don't know how much clearer you can get than that. And if you're complaining about the Lanthanides and Actinides, the big neon green arrows should help you there.

thats part of it (green arrows are really confusing also) but u say attacks for normal and transition, but u dont say which ones are normal and which are transition

[TaCktiX]

thats part of it (green arrows are really confusing also) but u say attacks for normal and transition, but u dont say which ones are normal and which are transition

There's kinda a bonus section called "Transition" mentioned, it's big, blue, and in the middle of the map...

As for the green arrows, follow the arrows. I'll add in some color variation next update so you can tell that Ac attacks Th and La attacks Ce.

Stuff

Your complaints are noted, and shadowsteel and I will be taking a second look at map mechanics to make it more do-able bonus-wise. Expect more impassables and altered bonuses. Bummer your attitude sucks so much that if I wasn't a rational person you would have been ignored.

[CatfishJohnson]

you kno whats funny about this little process, that all the little bitchers come out after its in its 10 stage, like 30 people have shown interest then this 5 people come in and start bitching like 15 year old spoiled little girls, hahah mibi i apologize for my comments to u, this is sad...u dis something because u dont have the mind compatince to understand simple words and techinicolor bright arrows pointing lol gg men no re, Mibi again i apologize at least u have intelligence