How's this for you?

[vtmarik]

Bush just suspended Habeas Corpus for anyone who has been, is being, and will be declared an enemy combatant by his little secret drumhead tribunals; AND he's greenlighted the use of torture (so long as it doesn't cause "serious harm")

Isn't this America? Aren't we supposed to be prosecuting people who commit torture rather than embracing their techniques? Aren't we supposed to be on the moral high ground and actually have the actions to back it up?

Am I the only person who remembers that we used to prosecute torturers for war crimes?

[AndyDufresne]

Every country is a living, aging, and evolving creature....I wonder what we will end up looking like in the end?


--Andy

[hockeycapn]

Ummm, the US army has a handbook on torture it has been in existence since at least WWII and it was only really changed ohh..a month ago. It's not like they've been hiding it either.

I think the criminals that the International community has tried in the past have mainly been totrturing civilians. Torturing combatants is a tried and true tradition.

I doubt many officers would refrain from torture it meant saving lives on their side. They are now allowed to use non-physical measures such as starvation. And anyone who believes that just because Bush says that's the limit no one will go farther is naive.

The only reason we can care about Abu Ghraib is because people took pictures and sent them home. Without them no one would have cared, at best it would have been buried on the 38th page of the New York Times.

[jay_a2j]

Abu Ghraib?


On September 11, 2001 nearly 3,000 people were "mistreated".

[vtmarik]

Tried and true? So since torture has been used before then that makes it OK?

I've always thought that torture was wrong, and up until recently so did the US Congress.

But, maybe it's a necessary tool to save us all from terrorists. Much in the way that hunters need armor piercing bullets and access to assault rifles to nab deer.

Abu Ghraib?


On September 11, 2001 nearly 3,000 people were "mistreated".

No, 3000 people were murdered. I fail to see how those deaths, however, justify the mistreatment at Abu Ghraib. How can we win over an enemy when we stoop to their level? How is that victory?

[reverend_kyle]

The terrorists are winning when they get us to go against our own constitution.

[Knight of Orient]

If you believe all that crap about America and morals, you are wrong. In this world, you dont get by by asking politelyand being nice. What would you prefer: being nice to terrorists, or having them blow up cities and people? which is the worst, torture, not to an extremity; or, innocents dying because we didnt try to find out anything because we have morals and are too nice. There is a time for morals, and a time to handle things toughly, and with the times we are in, i think everyone knows the answer on this one. do what we must for our protection.

[qeee1]

It kinda undermines calling the war, a "War on terror", not that anyone believed that anyway.

You guys are talking a lot about the greater good, or at least that's what it seems your doing in trying to justify torture, but when exactly does it become ok to torture people? When they have information about an immediate terrorist threat? When we think they have information? When they might have information about someone who might be a terrorist threat, sometime in the future?

Innocents dying because we didn't torture people, what about innocents dying because we did torture people.

Also the fact that we only care about it when there are pictures mailed home is a sad reflection on society.

[flipper1219]

interesting topic. just one thought though, none of you have stated what your definition of torture is, i would like to see if every one has the same definition or if it is subjective. if its subjective then this discussion is pointless unless you define the actions that are torturous that we are committing or have been authorized to commit.

just a thought

[Freetymes]

The terrorists are winning when they get us to go against our own constitution.

The terrorists are winning when we GIVE them constitutional rights!

If we are using the Lib ideaology that anything but milk and cookies at bed time is torture than we have lost our way. Teasing, forcing lack of sleep, hour upon hour of questioning is NOT torture.

The enemy being kept in our prison camps are being better fed and housed than they would be if in their own country. Then they are using our media and the far left as their own gullable propaganda tools. Most of the claims of abuse have been found to be lies and when found to be true the abusers have been punished.

No one has ever been tried for war crimes because they made someone stand in the corner for hour upon hour...

Every country is a living, aging, and evolving creature....I wonder what we will end up looking like in the end?

Well if the Islomo Fascists win we will either be faithful Muslums or dead...

They hate you and must kill you by thier own decree no matter who you are if you are not them! Even if you are Muslum but do not subscribe to thier canons you must die.

I believe the torture debate is kindled by the "We hate Bush" crowd and is a tempist in a tea pot. They are using tools to make peoples will fail so as to get information. It sucks and likely is no fun but it is not Torture in the midevil sense as our captives and anyone trying to undermine Bush would have you believe.

If we do not unite to defeat this global threat we will lose and you will be punished for even asking if your government is wrong much less have a place like this to discuss it. Sounds dire I know but IMHO the war declared upon us is and will be the defining issue of this generation. We can not fail!

[Knight of Orient]

well put

[Freetymes]

Much in the way that hunters need armor piercing bullets and access to assault rifles to nab deer.

No actually the general public needs these tools to keep the government as afraid of us as we are of them. This is an entirely differnt subject but you obviously have the same myopic viewpoint. Perhaps if you looked at both sides of these issues honestly it would help you to understand.
Hitler was the first free world leader to disarm his citizens... Hmmmm

any government that does not respect and fear it's citizens will not serve it's citizens.

[vtmarik]

When did I say that I was against personal gun ownership? You imbicile.

In fact, if you check other threads, you'd see that I'm very much in favor of personal, responsible gun ownership. But the comment wasn't directed at people who want guns, it was directed at the NRA for claiming that these items are for hunting rather than for protecting Americans from their government.


And no one has ever said that we should give terrorists constitutional rights. However, suspending habeas corpus isn't going to catch more terrorists, just more people. The fundamental right of a person to know why he was arrested and to challenge his arrest are not American rights, they are human rights. We signed the Geneva Convention, we ratified it, and now we're disobeying an agreement that we made. That's not the sign of a great nation, that's the sign of a bully wanting your lunch money.

WAKE THE f*ck UP! The torture debate is kindled by people who aren't callous and heartless idiots who believe that any dissent is disloyalty.

I will be punished for asking if my government is wrong? Holy shit, that comment makes me wish we could attach a turbine to Washington's grave, because that motherfucker is spinning mightily. Dude, read the Declaration of Independence.

There's a clause in the government's contract with it's people that if it should ever become too powerful or cease to represent the people and their desires that it should be dismantled and replaced. We haven't seen a president overreaching his constitutional bonds of power like this since Nixon (and we all remember what a fuckhead he was).

And I'm not going to say that this country is becoming the new Nazi Germany. This country is turning into something else, something akin to Stalin and the Soviet Union. An economy collapsing under the weight of monopolistic corporations, a government consisting of bureaucrats who are so out of touch with everything that they think the internet is "a series of tubes," a government that hauls people away and holds them without charge because a secret tribunal declared them an enemy combatant without giving the person the basic right to challenge his arrest, a nation under the grip of a president who wants little more than complete control of the planet (or outer space as it would seem).

These people we are "fighting" aren't fascists. Fascists denounce religion as devisive (much like Soviet Russia) and ban its practice. We are fighting zealots. Islamic Zealots who want nothing more than our destruction.

We aren't going to win against the terrorists by being terrified into selling away all of our basic rights to the government only given in return the hope that they won't abuse their power or turn it against us.

DO you want to make the terrorists shit their pants? Rebuild the Twin Towers, Restore our basic rights, treat prisoners with dignity, and above all just fucking treat them like what they are: Whiny children with napoleon complexes.

The activities at gitmo with these "interrogation techniques" are what they want us to do. They want us to forget that we are America and that we have a duty to be better than those that try and kill us. Sure, we need to defend this country and have a military that can do that, but we also need to remember who we are and how we got here. Let's not throw away this grand experiment just because we want to be safe.

In conclusion, let me quote one of our founding fathers who spoke about trading away rights for the safety of being under British rule:

"Those that would trade liberty for a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"


Is Ben Franklin a traitor too?

[qeee1]

well put

what? Our side can't have cheerleaders too?

[Freetymes]

I like your fervor Vtmarik although I could do without the name calling and denuciation of my ability to think. I would love to have a respectful debate if you have the ability.

I will happily debate your last comment however I have other things more pressing to do at the moment. Would you be ok if I respond later?

Chew on this till I get back...

We got here by destroying several cultures, enslaveing another, and overpowering our neighbors with military might...

We may have overcome those misdeeds and made effort tword recompense however we are not without original sin.

Again I would love a respectful debate and for homework perhaps you would peruse the NRA web site and find where it says that military style weapons and armor piercing ammunition is utilized for hunting so I can read it too.

Until tomorrow....

[happysadfun]

The terrorists are winning when they get us to go against our own constitution.

The terrorists are winning when we are fighting against ourselves.

[reverend_kyle]

The terrorists are winning when they get us to go against our own constitution.

The terrorists are winning when we are fighting against ourselves.

Which we wouldnt be fighting agianst ourselves if we didnt lose our constitutional rights and have them go against our constitution. So thanks for proving my point..



Also, We arent giving terrorists constitutional rights except for the ones that are american citizens.. but we shouldnt torture them etc.. because It goes against things written by the U.N. INTERNATIONAL LAW SET UP AFTER WWII... if that doesnt make you mad then you are insane.

[vtmarik]

I like your fervor Vtmarik although I could do without the name calling and denuciation of my ability to think. I would love to have a respectful debate if you have the ability.

I just get mad when people look at dissent and say things like "You will be punished for asking if your gov't is doing the right thing." Sorry, i'll try to keep my temper in check...

I will happily debate your last comment however I have other things more pressing to do at the moment. Would you be ok if I respond later?

Oh, don't worry about it, I'm going out of town so I don't know if I'll even have the chance to respond.

Chew on this till I get back...

We got here by destroying several cultures, enslaveing another, and overpowering our neighbors with military might...

We may have overcome those misdeeds and made effort tword recompense however we are not without original sin.

True, but at the same time it's not the misdeeds I refer to. It's the altruism and the newness of where this nation began. How we were the first colony to break away from the parent and become an independent nation.

Again I would love a respectful debate and for homework perhaps you would peruse the NRA web site and find where it says that military style weapons and armor piercing ammunition is utilized for hunting so I can read it too.

Until tomorrow....

Once again, that was part of my temper. I'm sorry. It's just that I hear from NRA members about how these things are for personal use. I mean, sure an armed citizenry is a safe citizenry but at the same time the average person doesn't need an AR-15 assault rifle to defend themselves when a .45 will do the trick. It's about training and quality over spray and quantity.

[terrafirma]

When did I say that I was against personal gun ownership? You imbicile.

In fact, if you check other threads, you'd see that I'm very much in favor of personal, responsible gun ownership. But the comment wasn't directed at people who want guns, it was directed at the NRA for claiming that these items are for hunting rather than for protecting Americans from their government.


And no one has ever said that we should give terrorists constitutional rights. However, suspending habeas corpus isn't going to catch more terrorists, just more people. The fundamental right of a person to know why he was arrested and to challenge his arrest are not American rights, they are human rights. We signed the Geneva Convention, we ratified it, and now we're disobeying an agreement that we made. That's not the sign of a great nation, that's the sign of a bully wanting your lunch money.

WAKE THE f*ck UP! The torture debate is kindled by people who aren't callous and heartless idiots who believe that any dissent is disloyalty.

I will be punished for asking if my government is wrong? Holy shit, that comment makes me wish we could attach a turbine to Washington's grave, because that motherfucker is spinning mightily. Dude, read the Declaration of Independence.

There's a clause in the government's contract with it's people that if it should ever become too powerful or cease to represent the people and their desires that it should be dismantled and replaced. We haven't seen a president overreaching his constitutional bonds of power like this since Nixon (and we all remember what a fuckhead he was).

And I'm not going to say that this country is becoming the new Nazi Germany. This country is turning into something else, something akin to Stalin and the Soviet Union. An economy collapsing under the weight of monopolistic corporations, a government consisting of bureaucrats who are so out of touch with everything that they think the internet is "a series of tubes," a government that hauls people away and holds them without charge because a secret tribunal declared them an enemy combatant without giving the person the basic right to challenge his arrest, a nation under the grip of a president who wants little more than complete control of the planet (or outer space as it would seem).

These people we are "fighting" aren't fascists. Fascists denounce religion as devisive (much like Soviet Russia) and ban its practice. We are fighting zealots. Islamic Zealots who want nothing more than our destruction.

We aren't going to win against the terrorists by being terrified into selling away all of our basic rights to the government only given in return the hope that they won't abuse their power or turn it against us.

DO you want to make the terrorists shit their pants? Rebuild the Twin Towers, Restore our basic rights, treat prisoners with dignity, and above all just fucking treat them like what they are: Whiny children with napoleon complexes.

The activities at gitmo with these "interrogation techniques" are what they want us to do. They want us to forget that we are America and that we have a duty to be better than those that try and kill us. Sure, we need to defend this country and have a military that can do that, but we also need to remember who we are and how we got here. Let's not throw away this grand experiment just because we want to be safe.

In conclusion, let me quote one of our founding fathers who spoke about trading away rights for the safety of being under British rule:

"Those that would trade liberty for a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"


Is Ben Franklin a traitor too?

some of this makes sense. like the ben franklin thing. still wish you got the quote right but whatever. 1st old GW had nothing to do with the decalration of independence. he was off fighitng to make sure none of those fat old guys died for whatwas on that paper. 2nd the towers sgould be rebuildt and we should hang every terrorist we catch from the flagpole at the top. how well do you think US prisoners are treated. not god at all because they get beheaded. the army doesnt just arrest people for walking down the street they have reasons nad just cause the gov. doesnt want everyone to know them doesnt meant hey dont exist. the "torture" we put the terrorists through is nothing compared to being burried alive in a fallin office building. those terrosrists know whyt hey were arrested. the people trapped in that building had no idea why the world was literally falling apart. so if you want to talk about giving those shit bags even an ounce of human rights your wwrong because they arent human. they are animals for the way they treat people. women get stoned to death for premarital sex after being raped! that sounds like a society that should exist doesnt it? you know what they do when they are done stoning the women? the pick up their guns and go find some american troops to kill. so you were on the right track or a while but you just carreened of a cliff if you think that thy dont deserve everything they get. those prisoners get fed better then some free americans do maybe we could force them to work at least then the earn their food like everyone else

[terrafirma]

When did I say that I was against personal gun ownership? You imbicile.

In fact, if you check other threads, you'd see that I'm very much in favor of personal, responsible gun ownership. But the comment wasn't directed at people who want guns, it was directed at the NRA for claiming that these items are for hunting rather than for protecting Americans from their government.


And no one has ever said that we should give terrorists constitutional rights. However, suspending habeas corpus isn't going to catch more terrorists, just more people. The fundamental right of a person to know why he was arrested and to challenge his arrest are not American rights, they are human rights. We signed the Geneva Convention, we ratified it, and now we're disobeying an agreement that we made. That's not the sign of a great nation, that's the sign of a bully wanting your lunch money.

WAKE THE f*ck UP! The torture debate is kindled by people who aren't callous and heartless idiots who believe that any dissent is disloyalty.

I will be punished for asking if my government is wrong? Holy shit, that comment makes me wish we could attach a turbine to Washington's grave, because that motherfucker is spinning mightily. Dude, read the Declaration of Independence.

There's a clause in the government's contract with it's people that if it should ever become too powerful or cease to represent the people and their desires that it should be dismantled and replaced. We haven't seen a president overreaching his constitutional bonds of power like this since Nixon (and we all remember what a fuckhead he was).

And I'm not going to say that this country is becoming the new Nazi Germany. This country is turning into something else, something akin to Stalin and the Soviet Union. An economy collapsing under the weight of monopolistic corporations, a government consisting of bureaucrats who are so out of touch with everything that they think the internet is "a series of tubes," a government that hauls people away and holds them without charge because a secret tribunal declared them an enemy combatant without giving the person the basic right to challenge his arrest, a nation under the grip of a president who wants little more than complete control of the planet (or outer space as it would seem).

These people we are "fighting" aren't fascists. Fascists denounce religion as devisive (much like Soviet Russia) and ban its practice. We are fighting zealots. Islamic Zealots who want nothing more than our destruction.

We aren't going to win against the terrorists by being terrified into selling away all of our basic rights to the government only given in return the hope that they won't abuse their power or turn it against us.

DO you want to make the terrorists shit their pants? Rebuild the Twin Towers, Restore our basic rights, treat prisoners with dignity, and above all just fucking treat them like what they are: Whiny children with napoleon complexes.

The activities at gitmo with these "interrogation techniques" are what they want us to do. They want us to forget that we are America and that we have a duty to be better than those that try and kill us. Sure, we need to defend this country and have a military that can do that, but we also need to remember who we are and how we got here. Let's not throw away this grand experiment just because we want to be safe.

In conclusion, let me quote one of our founding fathers who spoke about trading away rights for the safety of being under British rule:

"Those that would trade liberty for a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"


Is Ben Franklin a traitor too?

some of this makes sense. like the ben franklin thing. still wish you got the quote right but whatever. 1st old GW had nothing to do with the decalration of independence. he was off fighitng to make sure none of those fat old guys died for whatwas on that paper. 2nd the towers sgould be rebuildt and we should hang every terrorist we catch from the flagpole at the top. how well do you think US prisoners are treated. not god at all because they get beheaded. the army doesnt just arrest people for walking down the street they have reasons nad just cause the gov. doesnt want everyone to know them doesnt meant hey dont exist. the "torture" we put the terrorists through is nothing compared to being burried alive in a fallin office building. those terrosrists know whyt hey were arrested. the people trapped in that building had no idea why the world was literally falling apart. so if you want to talk about giving those shit bags even an ounce of human rights your wwrong because they arent human. they are animals for the way they treat people. women get stoned to death for premarital sex after being raped! that sounds like a society that should exist doesnt it? you know what they do when they are done stoning the women? the pick up their guns and go find some american troops to kill. so you were on the right track or a while but you just carreened of a cliff if you think that thy dont deserve everything they get. those prisoners get fed better then some free americans do maybe we could force them to work at least then the earn their food like everyone else

[jay_a2j]

Its not ok to torture people.

Its not ok to fly planes into buildings.

Its not ok to saw peoples heads off with a dull blades.

Its not ok to set up car bombs.

Its not ok to act out violently in order to influance elections in other nations.

Its not ok to call for the extermination of a whole race of people (Jews).

Its not ok to bomb ships (USS Cole)


So if we have to do a little of the first one to prevent all the rest, so be it. As long as this torture is not physically harming the individual.

[hitandrun]

It's not okay to drop atomic bombs on people (USA WWII)

[P Gizzle]

It's not okay to drop atomic bombs on people (USA WWII)

it is if it saves lives. more Japanese and Americans would have been killed in battles for the main island, if we didnt bomb it

[jay_a2j]

It's not okay to drop atomic bombs on people (USA WWII)

Oh now you tell us! We coulda stayed out of the war but perhaps if we had we both might be typing in German or Japanese.


P Gizzle some people just like stirring the pot. We know the cost of life it would have taken to take mainland Japan...others need a reason to hate the US.

[P Gizzle]

It's not okay to drop atomic bombs on people (USA WWII)

Oh now you tell us! We coulda stayed out of the war but perhaps if we had we both might be typing in German or Japanese.


P Gizzle some people just like stirring the pot. We know the cost of life it would have taken to take mainland Japan...others need a reason to hate the US.

indeed. and the thing is, if we had taken the Japanese mainland, we'd probably still have Japan and most Japanese wouldnt be alive, because they'd suicide.