Deciding Map Complexity

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:47 pm

mibi wrote:I am surprised to see Seige! rank with bamboo jack, 8 thoughts and actium as complex on many peoples lists.

remember you have one way attacks single terit bonuses cumulative bonuses and the terit naming that can cause confusion.

Snorri1234 · Post by **Snorri1234** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:04 pm

DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:I am surprised to see Seige! rank with bamboo jack, 8 thoughts and actium as complex on many peoples lists.
remember you have one way attacks single terit bonuses cumulative bonuses and the terit naming that can cause confusion.

I can see what mibi is talking about. Siege isn't really hard to understand. I would put it in moderate myself.
I would reserve complex for all those maps that include attacking things from other things not directly bordered to it.

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:27 pm

DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:I am surprised to see Seige! rank with bamboo jack, 8 thoughts and actium as complex on many peoples lists.
remember you have one way attacks single terit bonuses cumulative bonuses and the terit naming that can cause confusion.

single territory bonus?

lanyards · Post by **lanyards** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:32 pm

mibi wrote:
DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:I am surprised to see Seige! rank with bamboo jack, 8 thoughts and actium as complex on many peoples lists.
remember you have one way attacks single terit bonuses cumulative bonuses and the terit naming that can cause confusion.
single territory bonus?

I think he means The Throne.

lanyards · Post by **lanyards** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:45 pm

I think mine is pretty accurate:

1) Simple
Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Asia
Australia
Brazil
Cairns Coral Coast
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Discworld
Doodle Earth
Europe
France
Germany
Great Lakes
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Italy
Malta
Middle Earth
Middle East
Montreal
Philippines
Portugal
Puget Sound
San Francisco
Scotland
South America
Tamriel
USA
U.S. Senate

2) Moderate
Alexander's Empire
American Civil War
Battle For Australia
BeNeLux
British Isles
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Crossword
Duck and Cover
Extreme Global Warming
Madness
Mongol Empire
North America
Space
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front

3) Complex
Battle Of Actium
Bamboo Jack
Conquer Man
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
King of the Mountains
Midkemdil
Rail USA
Siege!
Solar System
USApocalypse
Valley Of The Kings
WWII Western Front
8 Thoughts

4) Hardcore/Extreme
Age of Merchants
Age of Realms: Magic
Age of Realms: Might
Berlin 1961
Feudal Wars
Pearl Harbor
WWII Iwo Jima

--lanyards

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:48 pm

Well I'm finally ready I think.

1) Simple

Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Australia
Battle For Australia
Brazil
Canada
Caribbean Islands
Doodle Earth
France
Germany
Hong Kong
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle East
Mongol Empire
North America
Portugal
Puget Sound
South America
U.S. Senate
USA
WWII Iwo Jima

2) Moderate

Alexander’s Empire
Asia
BeNeLux
British Isles
Cairns Coral Coast
CCU
Chinese Checkers
Circus Maximus
Discworld
Europe
Extreme Global Warming
Great Lakes
Italy
Malta
Middle Earth
Midkemdil
Montreal
Philippines
San Francisco
Scotland
Siege!
Tamriel
World 2.1
WWII Eastern Front

3) Complex

8 Thoughts
American Civil War
Berlin 1961
Crossword
D-Day: Omaha Beach!
Duck and Cover
Feudal War
King Of The Mountains
Madness
Rail USA
Solar System
Space
USApocalypse
Valley Of The Kings
WWII Western Front

4) Freaking Weird

Age of Merchants
Age of Realms: Might
Age of Realms: Magic
Bamboo Jack
Battle Of Actium
Conquer Man
Pearl Harbor

A mix of my own opinion and facts I felt were relevant.

Now it's time to put all the lists next to each other and see what's consistent.

lanyards · Post by **lanyards** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:51 pm

Coleman, why is WWII Iwo Jima in the simple? It seems really complex.

--lanyards

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:53 pm

lanyards wrote:Coleman, why is WWII Iwo Jima in the simple? It seems really complex.

--lanyards

coleman's a noob

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:53 pm

I guess it's unique orientation would make it moderate, but if you really look at it... It's just classic risk. A continent that appears to be split in half is actually connected by visible dotted lines, there is no funny business.

That said, it doesn't matter that I think it's simple, other people didn't so it will come up for debate.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:03 pm

mibi wrote:I am surprised to see Seige! rank with bamboo jack, 8 thoughts and actium as complex on many peoples lists.

I see bamboo as being the second most complex so far, behind to conquerman. Actium is quite simple, its just hard to look at (moderate, difficult at most). Siege is probably under difficult, 8 is under medium.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:08 pm

I thought as you did, but then I realized that when I was playing Battle of Actium (and I won) I had to use bob to check borders every single turn. Since that fits freaking weird (needing to require bob pretty much to even viably function) that's why I ranked it there.

I also think that DiM's maps can move down, but based on opponent chatter I placed them in the last group anyways.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:11 pm

Coleman wrote: I also think that DiM's maps can move down, but based on opponent chatter I placed them in the last group anyways.

my maps aren't complex. it's people that refuse to think outside the box that make them seem complex

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:15 pm

Well this isn't an overnight thing. Lots of maps are going to come up for debate one by one after I figure out what we all agree on in our original lists (ha ha you can't change it on me now, I backed them up)

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:18 pm

so i suppose you'll make a list judging by all lists posted and then bring for debate the maps that have been put under several categs.
those that are unanimously put in a single categ are final.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:39 pm

That's the plan unless someone comes up with a really good reason to bring something 8+ different people previously agreed on into debate.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:02 pm

Coleman wrote:That's the plan unless someone comes up with a really good reason to bring something 8+ different people previously agreed on into debate.

good. so when will we see this list?

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:03 pm

DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:That's the plan unless someone comes up with a really good reason to bring something 8+ different people previously agreed on into debate.
good. so when will we see this list?

At least 6 hours. Not joking, I have so much junk to do both backstage and in tournaments that I absolutely have to do so people don't crucify me.

Sorry. It should be up sometime tomorrow.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:07 pm

Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:That's the plan unless someone comes up with a really good reason to bring something 8+ different people previously agreed on into debate.
good. so when will we see this list?
At least 6 hours. Not joking, I have so much junk to do both backstage and in tournaments that I absolutely have to do so people don't crucify me.

Sorry. It should be up sometime tomorrow.

so it's 6 hours or tomorrow?

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:08 pm

DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:That's the plan unless someone comes up with a really good reason to bring something 8+ different people previously agreed on into debate.
good. so when will we see this list?
At least 6 hours. Not joking, I have so much junk to do both backstage and in tournaments that I absolutely have to do so people don't crucify me.

Sorry. It should be up sometime tomorrow.
so it's 6 hours or tomorrow?

Well for me 6 hours is tomorrow. It's 6 hours or later.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:11 pm

Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:That's the plan unless someone comes up with a really good reason to bring something 8+ different people previously agreed on into debate.
good. so when will we see this list?
At least 6 hours. Not joking, I have so much junk to do both backstage and in tournaments that I absolutely have to do so people don't crucify me.

Sorry. It should be up sometime tomorrow.
so it's 6 hours or tomorrow?
Well for me 6 hours is tomorrow. It's 6 hours or later.

ah cool. then it means the list will be up probably around the time i wake up or even sooner. it's 6am, i'll get home at 7am asleep at 8am wake up at 2-3pm. so that makes it 8-9 hours.

great.

PS: did i mention how much i hate being on a different time zone? most of the action around here happens when i'm asleep or at work

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:52 pm

By the way, thanks for being a good sport about this so far. I know this isn't really something you're liking right now.

Okay we have 12 lists, that's plenty. No more please. I'm probably going to need to do this map by map so it will take me a while.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:19 am

12 People Decided The Following Without Discrepancies

Simple
Classic
Africa
Ancient Greece
Arctic
Australia
Brazil
Canada
Doodle Earth
France
Germany
Iberia
Indochina
Ireland
Middle East
Portugal
Puget Sound
South America
USA

Moderate
Extreme Global Warming

Yeah, that’s it.

The ones we didn’t agree on and the places they fell into…

* 2 to 10
** 3 to 9
*** 4 to 8
**** 5 to 7
***** 6 to 6

split 3 ways

split 4 ways

**Age of Merchants 0 0 3 9
*Age of Realms: Magic 0 0 2 10
**Age of Realms: Might 0 0 3 9
****Alexander's Empire 5 7 0 0
****American Civil War 0 7 5 0
Asia 11 1 0 0
****Bamboo Jack 0 0 5 7

Battle For Australia 7 4 1 0

Battle Of Actium 0 1 4 7
****BeNeLux 5 7 0 0

Berlin 1961 0 2 7 3
***British Isles 8 4 0 0
***Cairns Coral Coast 8 4 0 0
*Caribbean Islands 10 2 0 0
***CCU 4 8 0 0
**Chinese Checkers 3 9 0 0
Circus Maximus 1 11 0 0
**Conquer Man 0 0 3 9

Crossword 1 4 7 0

D-Day: Omaha Beach! 0 1 10 1
Discworld 1 11 0 0

Duck and Cover 1 6 5 0
****Europe 7 5 0 0

Feudal Wars 0 1 7 4
Great Lakes 1 11 0 0
*Hong Kong 10 2 0 0
***Italy 5 7 0 0

King of the Mountains 0 6 4 2
*Madness 0 10 2 0
*Malta 2 10 0 0
*Middle Earth 10 2 0 0
**Midkemdil 0 9 3 0
****Mongol Empire 7 5 0 0
***Montreal 8 4 0 0
North America 11 1 0 0
*Pearl Harbor 0 0 2 10
****Philippines 5 7 0 0

Rail USA 0 1 5 6

San Francisco 3 8 1 0
**Scotland 9 3 0 0

Siege! 2 5 5 0

Solar System 0 1 9 2

Space 0 7 4 1
*Tamriel 2 10 0 0

USApocalypse 0 4 6 1
U.S. Senate 11 1 0 0

Valley Of The Kings 0 1 3 8
**World 2.1 3 9 0 0
***WWII Eastern Front 4 8 0 0

WWII Iwo Jima 2 4 5 1
****WWII Western Front 0 5 7 0
*****8 Thoughts 0 6 6 0

How much of this can we pass by without arguing?
I think anything 11 vs 1 or 10 vs 2 is probably fine with wherever the majority was.
Also anything split 3 ways in a way where one of the 3 is 10 I think we can pass those by too.

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:34 am

Coleman wrote: How much of this can we pass by without arguing?
I think anything 11 vs 1 or 10 vs 2 is probably fine with wherever the majority was.
Also anything split 3 ways in a way where one of the 3 is 10 I think we can pass those by too.

I agree on this ->

What does that leave us with?

C.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:42 am

Alternate Orientation:

Code: Select all

Conflict Level Map Name             S        M        C        E
-------------- -------------------- -----    -----    -----    -----
0              Asia                 12       1        0        0
0              North America        12       1        0        0
0              Great Lakes          1        12       0        0
0              Discworld            1        12       0        0
1              Caribbean Islands    10       3        0        0
1              Hong Kong            10       3        0        0
1              Middle Earth         10       3        0        0
1              Malta                2        11       0        0
1              Tamriel              2        11       0        0
1              Madness              0        10       3        0
1              Age of Realms: Magic 0        0        2        11
1              Pearl Harbor         0        0        2        11
2              Scotland             10        3       0        0
2              Chinese Checkers     3        10       0        0
2              Midkemdil            0        9        4        0
2              Age of Merchants     0        0        3        10
2              Age of Realms: Might 0        0        3        10
2              Conquer Man          0        0        3        10
3              British Isles        9        4        0        0
3              Montreal             8        5        0        0
3              Italy                6        7        0        0
3              CCU                  4        9        0        0
3              WWII Eastern Front   4        9        0        0
4              Europe               8        5        0        0
4              Mongol Empire        7        6        0        0
4              Alexander's Empire   5        8        0        0
4              BeNeLux              6        7        0        0
4              Philippines          6        7        0        0
4              American Civil War   0        7        6        0
4              WWII Western Front   0        5        8        0
4              Bamboo Jack          0        0        5        8
5              8 Thoughts           0        6        7        0
Confused       U.S. Senate          11       1        1        0
Confused       Circus Maximus       1        11       1        0
Confused       World 2.1            3        9        1        0
Confused       Cairns Coral Coast   8        4        1        0
Confused       Battle For Australia 7        4        2        0
Confused       San Francisco        3        8        2        0
Confused       Siege!               2        5        6        0
Confused       Duck and Cover       1        6        6        0
Confused       Crossword            1        4        8        0
Confused       Space                0        7        5        1
Confused       King of the Mountain 0        6        5        2
Confused       USApocalypse         0        4        6        2
Confused       Berlin 1961          0        2        7        4
Confused       Valley Of The Kings  0        1        3        9
Confused       Battle Of Actium     0        1        4        8
Confused       Rail USA             0        1        5        7
Confused       Feudal Wars          0        1        8        4
Confused       Solar System         0        1        10       2
Confused       D-Day: Omaha Beach!  0        1        10       2
Da Brickwall   WWII Iwo Jima        2        4        6        1

yeti_c · Post by **yeti_c** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:06 am

Coleman wrote:Alternate Orientation:

Code: Select all

Conflict Level Map Name             S        M        C        E
-------------- -------------------- -----    -----    -----    -----
0              Asia                 11       1        0        0
0              North America        11       1        0        0
0              U.S. Senate          11       1        0        0
0              Circus Maximus       1        11       0        0
0              Great Lakes          1        11       0        0
0              Discworld            1        11       0        0
1              Caribbean Islands    10       2        0        0
1              Hong Kong            10       2        0        0
1              Middle Earth         10       2        0        0
1              Malta                2        10       0        0
1              Tamriel              2        10       0        0
1              Madness              0        10       2        0
1              Age of Realms: Magic 0        0        2        10
1              Pearl Harbor         0        0        2        10
Confused       D-Day: Omaha Beach!  0        1        10       1

These ones are easy to sort out...

C.

Deciding Map Complexity

Re: Deciding Map Complexity