Conquer Club

Accused:joriki

The accused are suspected of: Dead beating a 4 poly game

Game number(s): Game 15079513

Comments:
a mod already ruled on this earlier, but since that ruling, the accused has continued to post in the game chat without playing other turns, while still playing in other games. at one time, he posted 2 hours before the player he posted as was kicked out for missing too many turns. the accused has even admitted to and explained WHY HE IS DEAD BEATING. i hope this can be addressed again, by a different mod. the precedent set by that initial ruling says, "if you don't like what your opponent does, go ahead and stop playing without any repercussion. if you don't like how the game is going, go ahead and stop playing without any repercussion." Here is his reason posted in game chat:

2014-12-05 20:55:29 - joriki: several commenters here seem to be assuming that my comment “this is extremely uncool -- I'm foeing you“ referred only to my previous comment and the lack of reaction to it
2014-12-05 20:55:46 - joriki: to the contrary, I PMed my opponent, asking in a friendly manner to provide the missing information, and I would have accepted a friendly response explaining why he doesn’t support this convention
2014-12-05 20:56:29 - joriki: when I got no response and my time was close to running out and I had to leave, I wrote again, asking again for the missing information and saying that I’d have to make my move soon because I was going out
2014-12-05 20:58:34 - joriki: shortly before my time ran out he finally wrote back, rather combatively, entirely missing the point (“i dont take screenshots“, as if the point was to have a snapshot and not to have the information), and curtly told me to „take your turn“
2014-12-05 20:58:49 - joriki: I missed my first move because I got distracted. This was of course my own fault, but given that waiting so long for his response had contributed to it, a friendly note like “sorry about your missed turn” might have been appropriate
2014-12-05 20:59:31 - joriki: instead he took maximal advantage of the missed turn, such that with the combination of the missing information and two successive strong initial turns with bonuses there was little point left in playing out the game
2014-12-05 20:59:47 - joriki: Hope that puts things in perspective; now feel free to go back to spewing expletives at me...

and again, he states he is "forfeiting" the game, while posting in the match and not taking turns:

2014-12-07 06:01:23 - joriki: @demonfork: I'm not entitled to it. There's a convention that every single player and every single tournament that I've been playing in the last two years or so has been following, to allow some time to see or snap the drop, or alternatively...
2014-12-07 06:02:46 - joriki: ... to provide the information destroyed by the first move. Everyone is obviously entitled not to follow that convention, it's not a rule, and I wrote above that I would have accepted if he'd responded that he doesn't support the convention and...
2014-12-07 06:04:59 - joriki: ... would rather not follow it. As I tried to explain above, [size=150]I'm not forfeiting this game because of the mere fact of him denying me this information, but because of the very unfriendly response to a friendly request, the hostile reaction...
2014-12-07 06:06:18 - joriki: ... to the fact that I missed the first move partly because of this problem, and the hopeless game state that all this (together with two lucky initial bonuses) produced.
2014-12-07 06:07:45 - joriki: I find the criticism here of me deadbeating highly inconsistent -- usually deadbeating is an unfriendly act, and I've never done it before in my entire time here at CC, but if someone treats me with such disrespect, why place such a high value...
2014-12-07 06:09:23 - joriki: ... on being friendly in return? What do you all see wrong in deadbeating, if not disrespect, and if disrespect is so important to you, why care so little about the initial disrespect shown to me?
2014-12-07 06:12:36 - joriki: The arguments here seem to imply that I have no grounds to complain about disrespect shown to me, but on the other hand I should be forced to play out a lengthy hopeless game against a very hostile opponent just to avoid showing disrespect to him...
2014-12-07 06:12:41 - joriki: ... that makes no sense to me.
2014-12-07 06:17:28 - joriki: @Serbia: You wrote: " if you want to see what your oppenent does, then PLAY WITHOUT FOG". I think you're missing the point:
2014-12-07 06:18:21 - joriki: The point is not to see what the opponent does, but to see the initial state before he does anything. If only the first player sees the initial state, that's an additional advantage for the first player.
2014-12-07 06:20:38 - joriki: Good players try to minimize random influences like who goes first, and maximize strategic effects like who's better at dealing with fog.
2014-12-07 06:21:07 - joriki: So the effects are not only different, but opposite: fog makes the game more strategic; missing the initial state gives the first player an even greater advantage than usual, making the game more random and less strategic.[/size]

if the accused has admitted to dead beating via a "forfeit", how is this not intentional dead beating? i don't understand what was missed the first time around and was unable to get a response with a direct PM to the mod that made the ruling. With all of the newly posted admissions by the accused, i hope this can be dealt with accordingly...-Jésus noir

ronc8649 wrote:hey man, i dont take screenshots, etc.

take the turn.

this was the only thing i had said to him. via pm. which is true.

so, him saying i had a hostile reaction is bullshit. he is truly acting like a little girl that didnt get his way.

cc should do something about this. if not, precedent is and will be set again after this c and a report is filed. i will do this to anyone who pisses me off. cuz f*ck it, it is not against the rules...

ronc just take your victory and be done with it. You are a premium member, so he is not holding up you joining or creating any games.

archieball wrote:ronc just take your victory and be done with it. You are a premium member, so he is not holding up you joining or creating any games.

that isn't the point. he is breaking the rules and was given a pass for some reason. i would suspect it is due to his rank and the complainer being ronc, period... i asked other mods about the ruling and 3 out of 3 had no idea how the ruling came down on the side it came down on. it makes no sense. the guy is dead beating, has admitted to dead beating or "forfeiting", is playing in other games, is posting in the game he is dead beating/"forfeiting", and for some reason it is not against the rules. as ron said, if this isn't dead beating, the precedent is going to have a huge ripple effect. i could start 100 speed games to point dump and just claim i am forfeiting them due to the drop or something someone said in chat... hell, i could look at a map, not like the drop, post i'm forfeiting and not be held accountable for an infraction in C&A. again, i feel that original ruling was based on ronc's reputation and the rank of the offender... it isn't about points, it is about the rules and the ruling that came down.-Jésus noir

Hi -- thanks for linking to this on my wall -- this is the first time I hear about this being a public topic -- could you please link to the "earlier ruling by a mod" that you refer to?

OK, found it: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=209279. I would have found it appropriate to notify me earlier that apparently there's been a public thread about me for two weeks, with 63 posts.

joriki wrote:OK, found it: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=209279. I would have found it appropriate to notify me earlier that apparently there's been a public thread about me for two weeks, with 63 posts.

well, when people dead beat, admit it, call it forfeiting and somehow are cleared of dead beating, people have input... i think you posted your defense clearly in the game chat... you are "forfeiting", which is somehow not dead beating to you... we have never had a SURRENDER button, so i have no idea how a "forfeit" is deemed not dead beating by a mod... hopefully someone else will take a look at this, since so many people seem confounded by the original ruling (including 3 mods)... good luck with your "forfeit"... you'll probably walk away with a warning, but the rules need to be upheld. if that ruling stands, the precedent has been set and CC should install a SURRENDER button...-Jésus noir

joriki wrote:OK, found it: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=209279. I would have found it appropriate to notify me earlier that apparently there's been a public thread about me for two weeks, with 63 posts.

OP was referring to this thread

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=209376

Hi everyone -- this is a reply not only to this thread, but mostly also to a previous thread (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=209279), in which, it turns out, I was a subject of public discussion and mudslinging for two weeks without anyone ever telling me about it, and also to a previous C & A thread (viewtopic.php?f=239&t=209376), about which I hope and trust I would have been informed and consulted if the ruling had been other than "Cleared".

First, thanks to Kaskavel and others for speaking up for me.

Second, since there seems to be an element of "class war" pervading these discussions, I want to emphasize that I don't judge people by their rank, I try to be friendly and respectful to everyone equally; in fact the most important people to be friendly and respectful to are people who just joined, whose rank is by definition low, independent of their skills.

I do, however, react to people differently depending on how they act towards me, and while I try to be respectful to everyone, I'm more interested in and spend more time and effort on being respectful to people who are respectful towards me than to people who hurl expletives at me, or worse, sexist and/or homophobic remarks. While we're on the subject of written and unwritten rules, I assume it's an unwritten rule that sexism and homophobia are not accepted on CC.

In as far as there seems to be a correlation between rank and style, that's not my fault; it's probably simply due to the fact that general intelligence is conducive both to winning strategy games and to understanding the mutual benefits of respectful behaviour (about which game theory, by the way, has a lot to say).

Now to the incident itself. All of these discussions were conducted without notifying me about them, without asking about my view or my perspective. This in itself is highly disrespectful, and it necessarily led to an incomplete picture. Several misconceptions were perpetuated in the discussions, the most important of which is that I stopped taking my turns merely because someone didn't follow the fog convention.

That's not what happened. I respectfully asked my opponent to follow the convention, both in the chat and in two PMs. If he'd replied just as respectfully that he doesn't support the convention and doesn't want to follow it, that would have been OK -- not cool, in my view, but OK.

He didn't reply for almost the full 24 hours. Then, a couple of hours after I PMed him that I was going out soon and would have to take my move, he wrote back very curtly, saying "hey man, i dont take screenshots, etc. take the turn." Apart from the fact that this was rather beside the point, since the convention is not about taking screenshots but about having equal information, and thus applies quite apart from taking screenshots, I found the tone quite unfriendly. Turning down a friendly request is one matter; ignoring it and answering in the imperative is another.

By that time; I'd gotten distracted and left the house without taking my move. That was of course my own fault. Nevertheless, the fact that I'd waited for almost 24 hours for a response obviously played a role; I don't usually miss turns otherwise. In my view, the obvious sportsmanlike reaction would have been to write "Gee, sorry to see you missed your turn; I hope it wasn't because of waiting for my response?!" or something like that. (I personally would even have offered to find some way together to make up for the spurious advantage, but I don't expect that of others.) Instead, my opponent took full advantage of his second initial turn without writing a word.

These four things together (denying my request to follow the convention; sending an unfriendly reply in the imperative; taking advantage of a mishap that had occurred in part because I waited for him; and not communicating about it at all) would already have been enough to take all the fun out of the game for me; but I would probably still have played it if there had been any point to it as a game. It so happened, however, that his first two players both had +2 bonuses, and his second player got lucky dice, and so the game looked pretty much decided before I even got to take my first move. Supermax Prison Riot is a big map without a winning objective, with lots of neutrals to go through in order to kill every single army, so it would have taken quite a long time to play out the game. I didn't see why I should force myself to deal with such an unfriendly person for so long with nothing to get out of it for either of us except to follow the injunction against deadbeating. To me, this is more than an isolated rule; it's part of a code of respect that we show each other here at CC, and I believe I've never violated it in all the thousands of games I've played -- in this very particular case, it didn't seem worth the effort. The code of respect had already been broken so much that there was nothing to be upheld.

Some of the discussion has focussed on the difference between formal rules and unwritten rules, and that my opponent "only" broke unwritten rules and I'm the one who broke a formal rule. Somewhat ironically, I can relate to this argument; I do a lot of party politics and I'm usually the one to insist that we need formal rules and they need to be the same for everyone, to avoid arbitrariness. (But I also strongly agree with the arguments people made here in favour of the importance of unwritten rules.) So, if someone insists that I broke a formal rule and I should be dealt some form of notice or warning, then so be it and I won't complain. I might add that I wasn't aware that there's a formal rule against deadbeating, but ignorance of the law is no excuse. I might also add that I wasn't aware that deadbeating in a polymorphic-4 game takes 12 turns and not 3 (which confirms that I'd never done it before , but on the formal side of things a 3-fold violation is just as bad as a 12-fold violation.

What matters to me is not so much whether I'm formally censured, but the opinion of other friendly and respectful members of the community. That's why I'm glad that several of them have spoken up for me and know to put this whole thing in the perspective of their many games with me. To those others who prefer expletives to rational discussion, and especially the sexists and homophobes among you: As far as I'm concerned, you can go to §#$*

joriki wrote:*same diatribe*
Last edited by joriki on Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

hey... that is really cool that you just spent an hour writing a short novel in the C&A... oddly enough, you are up in that game as the red player. i bet you could have taken your turn in less time than it took to write the same defense you have been posting all over the forums... why didn't you take your turn? oh, yeah... i forgot... you are "forfeiting" the match... *cough*... CC has refused to implement a SURRENDER BUTTON from day one, so there is no forfeit, there is no surrender, you are choosing to not take turns and if you are allowed to do this, simply because someone did not play how you wanted them to, the flood gates will open. the black jesus has spoken...-Jésus noir

owenshooter wrote:

joriki wrote:*same diatribe*

hey... that is really cool that you just spent an hour writing a short novel in the C&A... oddly enough, you are up in that game as the red player. i bet you could have taken your turn in less time than it took to write the same defense you have been posting all over the forums... why didn't you take your turn?

I believe if I started taking my turns now it would make things worse -- it would force both of us to spend even more time on this game that obviously no longer has any point if it ever had one, whereas if I miss two more turns it will all be over and we can all move on to more pleasant things.

Regarding the "same defense I've been posting all over the forums" -- as I wrote, the problem was precisely that I wasn't posting in the forums because no-one had had the basic courtesy to make me aware of the fact that this was being discussed in the forums -- up to now I'd only posted an explanation in the game chat; also that explanation was intended mostly for people who were hurling expletives at me there, whereas in the forums there were also some more constructive comments, including people who respectfully criticized my conduct, and I wanted to engage with the community as a whole.

joriki wrote:

owenshooter wrote:

joriki wrote:*same diatribe*

hey... that is really cool that you just spent an hour writing a short novel in the C&A... oddly enough, you are up in that game as the red player. i bet you could have taken your turn in less time than it took to write the same defense you have been posting all over the forums... why didn't you take your turn?

I believe if I started taking my turns now it would make things worse -- it would force both of us to spend even more time on this game that obviously no longer has any point if it ever had one, whereas if I miss two more turns it will all be over and we can all move on to more pleasant things.

Regarding the "same defense I've been posting all over the forums" -- as I wrote, the problem was precisely that I wasn't posting in the forums because no-one had had the basic courtesy to make me aware of the fact that this was being discussed in the forums -- up to now I'd only posted an explanation in the game chat; also that explanation was intended mostly for people who were hurling expletives at me there, whereas in the forums there were also some more constructive comments, including people who respectfully criticized my conduct, and I wanted to engage with the community as a whole.

Sorry for the repetition but: taking your turn and doing nothing is far quicker than waiting for it to time out. Press Begin, deploy somewhere meaningless, end attack, end reinforcement. A matter of a few seconds and, should you wish to abandon the game, far quicker and doesn't lay you open to charges of deadbeating.
BTW - Homophobia, racism and sexism are part of the written rules.

clangfield wrote:BTW - Homophobia, racism and sexism are part of the written rules.

yeah... that was a nice big long debate that the forum community took part in to deal with an increasing problem... instead of just making up our own rules, we opened a dialogue and the site/admins took notice, participated and the rules were written. if you want to dead beat/forfeit your games without repercussion, then you should seek a rule change. thus far, CC has denied putting in a "surrender button", because they feel it would be abused... however, maybe the accused has a better solution to a surrender button. whatever it is, i hope it is better than what he is exhibiting right now while under scrutiny. what the accused is doing is against the rules, i don't see how anyone can debate or how the original mod ruled that he was not dead beating... just because you don't like something another player does, that is within the written rules, doesn't mean you can hold them hostage in a game by "forfeit" or dead beat... the black jesus has spoken...-Jésus noir

How dare you take a turn without providing me a snapshot!!!

I'm with Joriki. And, Owen, how can you call him a dick and a bully while telling him to get bent all in one message? It's a private disagreement with no actual harm done to anyone. Let it go.

Joriki, I also encourage you to open a complaint or post the homophobic or sexist remarks made to you. If someone is hurling insults at me, I'm not going to take the time to play a game with them, either.

joriki wrote:So, if someone insists that I broke a formal rule and I should be dealt some form of notice or warning, then so be it and I won't complain.

OK, so let's get a ruling both on this and ronc's unfortunate usage of language like "cunt," and move on.

This should be noted. joriki didn't know about it, now he knows and will probably not do it again, nevertheless he broke the rule.

@joriki, fyi, if the previous C and A report hadn't be cleared, you would have received a pm telling you that you are noted/warned/banned. But otherwise nobody is supposed to contact you to ask you to defend yourself. Only friends reading C and A might do that for you .

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Can we not say "cunt" on CC? Surely there is wriggle room to say "cunt" if it is not used to abuse or harass.

Donelladan wrote:This should be noted. joriki didn't know about it, now he knows and will probably not do it again, nevertheless he broke the rule.

@joriki, fyi, if the previous C and A report hadn't be cleared, you would have received a pm telling you that you are noted/warned/banned. But otherwise nobody is supposed to contact you to ask you to defend yourself. Only friends reading C and A might do that for you .

nobody asked him to defend himself, he was made aware that there was a thread about him in C&A... there was no declaration or challenge sent out to him to come defend himself... so, i have no idea what you are going on about... and as you can see, he may have done better by not responding at all.. not much of a stellar defense going on here, with an admission of "forfeit"...-Jésus noir

ariskocrat wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa. Can we not say "cunt" on CC? Surely there is wriggle room to say "cunt" if it is not used to abuse or harass.

Can you honestly read ronc's post and conclude that it wasn't harassment?

ariskocrat wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa. Can we not say "cunt" on CC? Surely there is wriggle room to say "cunt" if it is not used to abuse or harass.

Yes, I was differentiating between expletives and actual sexist and homophobic remarks, and I agree that in most usages "cunt" would belong in the former category.

ariskocrat wrote:Joriki, I also encourage you to open a complaint or post the homophobic or sexist remarks made to you.

Yes; I wasn't aware that there are written rules against this until clangfield pointed it out above -- now I was in fact in the process of formally complaining about it when you wrote.

joriki wrote:

ariskocrat wrote:Joriki, I also encourage you to open a complaint or post the homophobic or sexist remarks made to you.

Yes; I wasn't aware that there are written rules against this until clangfield pointed it out above -- now I was in fact in the process of formally complaining about it when you wrote.

good luck with that!! there is nothing homophobic or racist or bigoted about the word DICKISH...

Dickish
An act of rudeness towards a person.

Used commonly to define an intentional act of rudeness.
Dude, that guy won't let me change lanes. What a dickish thing to do...

funny, kind of describes your actions in that game by your intentional "forfeit" or dead beat as we all call it... good luck with that!!-Jésus noir

We seem to be at a misunderstanding here. I believe Joriki was talking about making a complaint for the use of cunt and other expletives in the chat log. Also, I thought the claim of sexism/homophobia was about PM harassment and not just the use of "cunt" in the game chat. My discussion of "cunt" began with me forgetting it had been used in the GC.

ariskocrat wrote:We seem to be at a misunderstanding here. I believe Joriki was talking about making a complaint for the use of cunt and other expletives in the chat log. Also, I thought the claim of sexism/homophobia was about PM harassment and not just the use of "cunt" in the game chat. My discussion of "cunt" began with me forgetting it had been used in the GC.

ahhh, good luck with that one too... ronc has had multiple complaints about his use of that word and they are always told to FAMO... so, good luck with that one.. and ron posted the pm's, he said nothing homophobic or bigoted or racist... anyway, we will wait and see that thread... i'm just interested in the outcome of this one...-Jésus noir

ariskocrat wrote:We seem to be at a misunderstanding here. I believe Joriki was talking about making a complaint for the use of cunt and other expletives in the chat log. Also, I thought the claim of sexism/homophobia was about PM harassment and not just the use of "cunt" in the game chat. My discussion of "cunt" began with me forgetting it had been used in the GC.

My comment was based only on what I saw in the game chat. If ronc said other abusive things in a PM, then that should be considered too, of course.

I've reported the posts that I perceive as sexist and homophobic to the chat moderators. They were two very specific posts, and this has nothing to do with "cunt" or "dick" or any of the other expletives hurled at me in these threads. I don't enjoy those (though I have to admit I had to laugh about the "dog returning to its vomit"), but in most usages they're not sexist or homophobic.