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GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:34 pm
by GabonX
Pardon me for borrowing your format Army, but I have a question which I believe will be very informative regarding how people think.
Caste your vote everyone. The poll will be open for a total of seven days starting today, August 10th.
Let it all hang loose.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:38 pm
by Woodruff
It really IS that simple, in this case. I'm speaking of each group as a whole (because that is how the question is worded) and their intentions, not of individuals, of course.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:38 pm
by Army of GOD
GabonX wrote:
Let it all hang loose.
Ew...
BUT SERIOUSLY! It's not that simple. There were probably some complete assholes on the American side and really good guys on the German side who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
But if you mean like general then it'd be a ...yes? Idk
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:39 pm
by Army of GOD
Haha and maybe I misread or misinterpreted the question in which case, whoopsie daisy.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:54 am
by Neoteny
Nevermind.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:55 am
by comic boy
The only response is yes that the US were good guys, the Commonwealth though were even better because they were in from the start
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:59 am
by comic boy
Neoteny wrote:I'm not sure the question you asked could be reasonably answered in a yes or no question, when you gave us the choices of Americans or Germans.
To be fair it said Nazis not Germans, there would have been German Americans fighting in the US forces, mind you there were a few Nazis in the US government administration also
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:01 am
by PLAYER57832
Woodruff wrote:It really IS that simple, in this case. I'm speaking of each group as a whole (because that is how the question is worded) and their intentions, not of individuals, of course.
Absolutely.
Obviously individual Germans were not "all evil", but even aside from what we know now of how Nazis treated Jews, etc., Germans were absolutely the agressors and we came in both at the request of Europe AND because we faced Japanese aggression.
Self-defense always outweighs aggression when it comes to wars.
Now, if you want to discuss whether things we did helped usher in the Nazis or similar type issues, you might have more of a debate.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:01 am
by Martin Ronne
Who the hell voted no?!?!
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:05 am
by PLAYER57832
comic boy wrote:Neoteny wrote:I'm not sure the question you asked could be reasonably answered in a yes or no question, when you gave us the choices of Americans or Germans.
To be fair it said Nazis not Germans, there would have been German Americans fighting in the US forces, mind you there were a few Nazis in the US government administration also
You will have to provide evidence of any but a very few isolated Germans (spies, technical advisors, essentially) fighting for the US. In fact, many German Americans experiences prejudice. Nowhere near as extreme as that of the Japanese Americans, but we had internment camps for Nazis sympathizers, captured German prisoners (though "prison" sometimes meant being sent out to farms to help tend crops).
I am afraid that this is a case where, while carrying grudges certainly is not the best way to go, we have to be careful not to rewrite history into a "Germans were not all that bad". They made some pretty heneous errors and did allow Hitler to come to power, were an extremely formidable force and came very close to virtually destroying the world as we know it.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:20 am
by comic boy
PLAYER57832 wrote:comic boy wrote:Neoteny wrote:I'm not sure the question you asked could be reasonably answered in a yes or no question, when you gave us the choices of Americans or Germans.
To be fair it said Nazis not Germans, there would have been German Americans fighting in the US forces, mind you there were a few Nazis in the US government administration also
You will have to provide evidence of any but a very few isolated Germans (spies, technical advisors, essentially) fighting for the US. In fact, many German Americans experiences prejudice. Nowhere near as extreme as that of the Japanese Americans, but we had internment camps for Nazis sympathizers, captured German prisoners (though "prison" sometimes meant being sent out to farms to help tend crops).
I am afraid that this is a case where, while carrying grudges certainly is not the best way to go, we have to be careful not to rewrite history into a "Germans were not all that bad". They made some pretty heneous errors and did allow Hitler to come to power, were an extremely formidable force and came very close to virtually destroying the world as we know it.
You misunderstood my remark,I used the expression Nazi within the context of the original question,more accurately I would say Fascist sympathisers,Kennedy being the best example. Again the US was noted simply because of the original context, there were also many supporters of Hitler in Britain and the rest of Europe.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:58 am
by SultanOfSurreal
anyone who understands history in terms of "good guys" and "bad guys" has such a hilariously childish concept of the subject that their opinions are less than worthless
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:37 am
by Semigall
Of course they weren't.
Nazis almost saved us from commies while Americans didn't gave a sh*t while half of Europe was gettin' overrun by the red scum.
And it would've been much better to be occupied by nazis then by commies, there's huge difference... the first ones were just noble German soldiers, while the others were just some filthy lowlife thugs, their policies towards occupied territories differed very much, Germans were acting almost chivalrous, while the red sickf*cks just pillaged and raped. And there are countless witnesses to this, each with their fascinating stories, so it's truth i'm telling you, you can verify it easily.
So that's a pity Americans were such cowards at the end, unable to defeat the red scourge, letting so many nations suffer because of it...
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:00 pm
by muy_thaiguy
Semigall wrote:Of course they weren't.
Nazis almost saved us from commies while Americans didn't gave a sh*t while half of Europe was gettin' overrun by the red scum.
And it would've been much better to be occupied by nazis then by commies, there's huge difference... the first ones were just noble German soldiers, while the others were just some filthy lowlife thugs, their policies towards occupied territories differed very much, Germans were acting almost chivalrous, while the red sickf*cks just pillaged and raped. And there are countless witnesses to this, each with their fascinating stories, so it's truth i'm telling you, you can verify it easily.
So that's a pity Americans were such cowards at the end, unable to defeat the red scourge, letting so many nations suffer because of it...
HOLD IT!
Nazis almost saved Europe from Commies? They attacked the Russians
first. The Nazis were taking anyone that
voiced disagreement. They rounded up Jews, Gypsies, handicaps, Catholics, any number of other groups, and any who sheltered afore mentioned groups without any cause except for being in those groups. Noble? Noble my ass. The Nazi soldiers were good fighters, and a majority regular soldiers, but they followed Hitler and his policies. The Nazis also pillaged. Raped? The only reason why they wouldn't have done that, would have been because they either saw themselves as superior and those they conquered as inferior, or there weren't people left to rape. Or they were to just keep moving. And many of those that lived under their occupation were terrified or formed resistance to hurt them at every turn they could. Were some Communists? Possible. Most of them merely wanted the invaders out of their homes.
And if it hadn't been for the US, the Russians would have overrun Europe, at least the mainland. Britain would have been about the only wild card there, as they are not connected by land to the rest of the continent. The US wanted to remain neutral because for one, there were tons of 1st and 2nd generation German immigrants here who still had a lot of ties. Another reason is, is that after WWI, and the US was more or less short changed in it due to Europe demanding the US join one side or the other in a war that was caused by the Europeans when the policy in the US was to have as little to do with European war as possible (Monroe Doctrine I believe it was), and lost some 50,000 in 1 year and ended the stalemate, you can't really blame the US for not wanting to get involved into another European War directly. The US was able to keep the USSR out of Western Europe. Granted, they had taken Eastern Europe, but would have taken everything if not for the US forces helping to bolster the other Allies in the West. And with at least the West free, there was at least some hope for the people in the East.
Oh, and the Nazis didn't "save" anyone. They instigated a war that caused millions of deaths, caused the Holocaust which cost almost as many lives as WWI did, against non-enemy combatants and civilians instead of soldiers, and gave cause for the USSR to begin marching West to gain more territory. Before that, the USSR was purging itself and quite content with it too.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:19 pm
by Frigidus
muy_thaiguy wrote:Semigall wrote:Of course they weren't.
Nazis almost saved us from commies while Americans didn't gave a sh*t while half of Europe was gettin' overrun by the red scum.
And it would've been much better to be occupied by nazis then by commies, there's huge difference... the first ones were just noble German soldiers, while the others were just some filthy lowlife thugs, their policies towards occupied territories differed very much, Germans were acting almost chivalrous, while the red sickf*cks just pillaged and raped. And there are countless witnesses to this, each with their fascinating stories, so it's truth i'm telling you, you can verify it easily.
So that's a pity Americans were such cowards at the end, unable to defeat the red scourge, letting so many nations suffer because of it...
HOLD IT!
Nazis almost saved Europe from Commies? They attacked the Russians
first. The Nazis were taking anyone that
voiced disagreement. They rounded up Jews, Gypsies, handicaps, Catholics, any number of other groups, and any who sheltered afore mentioned groups without any cause except for being in those groups. Noble? Noble my ass. The Nazi soldiers were good fighters, and a majority regular soldiers, but they followed Hitler and his policies. The Nazis also pillaged. Raped? The only reason why they wouldn't have done that, would have been because they either saw themselves as superior and those they conquered as inferior, or there weren't people left to rape. Or they were to just keep moving. And many of those that lived under their occupation were terrified or formed resistance to hurt them at every turn they could. Were some Communists? Possible. Most of them merely wanted the invaders out of their homes.
And if it hadn't been for the US, the Russians would have overrun Europe, at least the mainland. Britain would have been about the only wild card there, as they are not connected by land to the rest of the continent. The US wanted to remain neutral because for one, there were tons of 1st and 2nd generation German immigrants here who still had a lot of ties. Another reason is, is that after WWI, and the US was more or less short changed in it due to Europe demanding the US join one side or the other in a war that was caused by the Europeans when the policy in the US was to have as little to do with European war as possible (Monroe Doctrine I believe it was), and lost some 50,000 in 1 year and ended the stalemate, you can't really blame the US for not wanting to get involved into another European War directly. The US was able to keep the USSR out of Western Europe. Granted, they had taken Eastern Europe, but would have taken everything if not for the US forces helping to bolster the other Allies in the West. And with at least the West free, there was at least some hope for the people in the East.
Oh, and the Nazis didn't "save" anyone. They instigated a war that caused millions of deaths, caused the Holocaust which cost almost as many lives as WWI did, against non-enemy combatants and civilians instead of soldiers, and gave cause for the USSR to begin marching West to gain more territory. Before that, the USSR was purging itself and quite content with it too.
+1
Well put.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:35 pm
by daddy1gringo
SultanOfSurreal wrote:anyone who understands history in terms of "good guys" and "bad guys" has such a hilariously childish concept of the subject that their opinions are less than worthless
Read over your own posts, sos. You just have a different set of good guys and bad guys.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:36 pm
by Snorri1234
daddy1gringo wrote:SultanOfSurreal wrote:anyone who understands history in terms of "good guys" and "bad guys" has such a hilariously childish concept of the subject that their opinions are less than worthless
Read over your own posts, sos. You just have a different set of good guys and bad guys.
Really?
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:56 pm
by Timminz
The real "good guys" were the ones fighting against nazi expansion/oppression right from the start. Fashionably late is not a good thing to be in a war.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:06 pm
by Strife
Zangief: General Bison, is a bad guy? If you know then why do you work for him?
Dee Jay: Because he paid me a freakin fortune, Man! If you know what's good for you you'll save your own ass!
Zangief: ...you got paid?
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:04 pm
by Titanic
Stupid question because something like WWII can't be answered with a simple yes/no choice. Btw, its very hard to say which of the Nazis or Soviets were the lesser of two evils. During the war it was believed by the allies that the Soviets were the better choice, but as the war progressed it became more and more clear that the Soviets were no better, and now history tells us that both of them were pretty much as bad as each other.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:45 pm
by jonesthecurl
Actually, just to comment, i don't see the Soviets in the poll options...
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:53 pm
by neanderpaul14
Semigall wrote:Of course they weren't.
Nazis almost saved us from commies while Americans didn't gave a sh*t while half of Europe was gettin' overrun by the red scum.
And it would've been much better to be occupied by nazis then by commies, there's huge difference... the first ones were just noble German soldiers, while the others were just some filthy lowlife thugs, their policies towards occupied territories differed very much, Germans were acting almost chivalrous, while the red sickf*cks just pillaged and raped. And there are countless witnesses to this, each with their fascinating stories, so it's truth i'm telling you, you can verify it easily.
So that's a pity Americans were such cowards at the end, unable to defeat the red scourge, letting so many nations suffer because of it...
Yeah I'm sure the Poles were very happy to be occupied by the chivalrous German soldiers, who raped their wives, stole their children and forced them into work camps. I'm also quite certain all the Jewish residents were overjoyed to see all the noble German soldiers kicking their doors in and shoving them on to trains.
Man this guy is just begging to be flamed, isn't he??
By the way Semigall have you ever even seen a history book?? It's obvious by your post that you've never read one, but have you ever seen one??
Oh, by the way Mein Kampf does not count as a history book.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:56 pm
by Titanic
jonesthecurl wrote:Actually, just to comment, i don't see the Soviets in the poll options...
I know, I was just replying to some of the comments in the thread.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:28 pm
by MeDeFe
After WW2 there were even more Nazis in US military research projects.
Re: GabonX interjects an interesting poll
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:37 pm
by thegreekdog
MeDeFe wrote:After WW2 there were even more Nazis in US military research projects.
I think you mean Germans.