Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[MeDeFe]

You're stretching the meaning of omniscient into precognitive. If God is precognitive, then there is only one possible timeline for human existence and there is no free will because everything is already decided (by God? or somebody). That is a very linear interpretation though.

Mr. Nate has stated, and I agree, that God knows all possible outcomes. Literally an infinite number of possible futures based on the factual information that he has right now. If I choose to stay in bed five minutes late, he could extrapolate how that decision might effect me twenty years hence (I might be rushing to work instead of stopping to buy that five million dollar lottery ticket, for instance). Isn't this God smarter and more all-knowing than the one who zealously guards the one and only timeline?

From our perspective there is only one future. It's the combined work of each of us making myriad decisions every day. That is not to say that our perspective is the only one though. God can certainly see every possible outcome which qualifies him as "all-knowing". It also makes him a good guide and advisor. It does not mean, however, that we have no choice with regard to following his guidance, nor does it imply a precognitive grasp of the future.

I don't see it as stretching the meaning of the word, the way you describe things though, god would only be all-knowing in so far as that he knows all that has happened and all that does happen, but as for the future he can only calulate what things might happen, but he doesn't know which it'll be until it actually happens.

[CrazyAnglican]

I don't see it as stretching the meaning of the word, the way you describe things though, god would only be all-knowing in so far as that he knows all that has happened and all that does happen, but as for the future he can only calulate what things might happen, but he doesn't know which it'll be until it actually happens.

Yes, essentially. I'm merely saying that God could be "all-knowing" without precognition. It's precognition, not omniscience, that calls free will into question. If God knows everything that has happened in the past; is aware of all that occurs in the present; and can extrapolate everything that might possibly occur in the future until the end of the earth (and beyond). I'm totally okay with giving him the title "All-knowing" because he does, in fact, know everything.

Precognition is a method for gathering information that may or may not exist in the first place. At best it isn't the most reliable source. God may simply choose not to employ it, if it exists at all.

Having the ability to extrapolate every possible consequence of every possible decision, doesn't necessarily mean that is where he turns his attention. Maybe he's just answering prayers and petitions; holding the devil at bay, and generally keeping the cosmos in order. He's probably letting me handle my little spot of reality, and hoping that I make good choices.

Hello jc

Can i state for the record that i am an agnostic, i have no wish to offend any ones faith
I am just trying to find out why you do have faith in god and why i can not find it in me .

I don't know about anyone else, but I haven't been offended. I wish you luck with the Bible. It is an intensely challenging text. The first time I attempted to read it I started at page one and read until Joshua before getting distracted. In the last three years I did read it, I made time each day to read one chapter only. I started in Acts, read the epistles, (speed) read Revelations (I'll have to come back to that), the Gospels, and then read Joshua to Malachai (saving Psalms for last).

All of that means exactly nothing, except that you do not have to read it cover to cover. Coming up with a strategy of how to do it helped me.

[MeDeFe]

There's also a version around which leaves out all the geneology and things like that and puts that in an appendix instead, I hear that version makes for far easier reading.

[s.xkitten]

you know, there really is a very simple answer to this question...



Why not?

[MR. Nate]

Mr Nate
I like that innate hook,seems that it covers all possibilities so im going to use it to promote The Mighty Frog as a new and improved diety. Thinking of launching soon with a nice range of merchandise but could do with a PR/Marketing man....What you doing next Thursday

I'm busy Thursday, but Friday is mostly clear, I can get you in about 9 Eastern. Have your people call my people.

The problem is that knowledge, in order to be knowledge and not just opinion or belief, has to be true, so if god knows what a person is going to do before this person goes and does it there is no choice. If this persons actions are already known, he cannot act differently, if he can act differently god cannot know how he is going to act.
So god doesn't have to make a person act a certain way, simply knowing how a person is going to act is enough to make free will impossible.

I've bolded the part where I think your making a logical leap. I don't now of any particular evidence for this, I think your making an assumption, and one which I don't think I agree with.

how can a plant be evil ,what about all the whales ,dolphins did he have water tanks on ark for them?
Did God separate the fresh water from the salt water ?

I don't know about the salt/fresh water, but I think he left the fish alone. There doesn't seem to be any record of them.

And why did God find the odour of burnt flesh pleasing in Noah's sacrifice .i know we kill animals to live but just for sacrifices that just so wrong to me .

It seems that with sacrifices, its important to remember that a. animals have no souls and b. it is the attitude of the offerer that is most important. It's Noah's willingness to offer a precious lamb that pleased God, not the specific odor of burning flesh.

If he knows that we are evil in though why did he kill all living things the first time and why did the animals of the planet get destroyed for the evil we did ?

I think we have to be careful with holding God accountable for sins we created. Meaning, animals die all the time, especially in natural disasters. I don't want to say God doesn't care about animals (clearly he does, (Matt 10:29) but it seems that they are less important than the redemption of humanity, so when necessary, he is willing to sacrifice soulless animals to make a point in His plan for humanity.

I thank you for the time sum of you have spent on explaining how you see the bible to me.

Ps before the grammatical police tell me yet again that i don't know how to spell ,punctuate or how to set out a paragraph I know.

Do feel free to put me on your ignore list if I offend you sensibility with my poor grammar

You're welcome (I think), and Never!

[khazalid]

3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

this is the only interesting point, simply because communism and anarchy have roots in theological philosophy and practise. ah blessed insight

[unriggable]

3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

this is the only interesting point, simply because communism and anarchy have roots in theological philosophy and practise. ah blessed insight

They don't want to be the victims of their own irony.

[MeDeFe]

The problem is that knowledge, in order to be knowledge and not just opinion or belief, has to be true, so if god knows what a person is going to do before this person goes and does it there is no choice. If this persons actions are already known, he cannot act differently, if he can act differently god cannot know how he is going to act.
So god doesn't have to make a person act a certain way, simply knowing how a person is going to act is enough to make free will impossible.

I've bolded the part where I think your making a logical leap. I don't now of any particular evidence for this, I think your making an assumption, and one which I don't think I agree with.

It's in the word "true", Nate. If god knows what a person is going to do before this person does it this knowledge has to be true, otherwise it wouldn't be knowledge. But if it is true there is only one course of action for this person, namely, the one that god knows this person will take.
I don't see a logical leap there.

[Skittles!]

I believeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee in mobile (cell) phones

[satanspaladin]

I believeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee in mobile (cell) phones

No cell phones are evil Don;t believe in them they are the devils toys.

Switch them off be free

[CoffeeCream]

CrazyAnglican & OnlyAmbrose,

I finally decided that I would at least give reading the Bible a try. I get a pretty nice discount on any book I want where I work at so I decided to get what is called "The Message". It says that it is not actually scripture but rather a version using today's English. Since I already have a copy of the Bible I will match both up to see how it compares to the actual scriptures.

Any suggestions on a particular book? If not I am going to start at the very beginning in Genesis. I was thinking of reading a chapter a day from Genesis and then maybe reading a chapter of the first book of the New Testament. That's the thing though, how do you study the Bible?

[CrazyAnglican]

I started with Acts because I knew very little about the early Church, but really I'd say get an overview and start with what interests you. In addition to OnlyAmbrose, Mr. Nate and mamateo (my brother) are both very knowledgable. I'm sure they would have suggestions as well.

My only real suggestion is to make a certain time of day every day to read it and stick to the habit. It's a very long work, so you can't really count pages the way you might with other ones.

[Caleb the Cruel]

Any suggestions on a particular book? If not I am going to start at the very beginning in Genesis. I was thinking of reading a chapter a day from Genesis and then maybe reading a chapter of the first book of the New Testament. That's the thing though, how do you study the Bible?

That's a good idea, read 1Chapter of Genesis and 1Chapter from the New Testament daily. I would suggest starting with one of the Gospels which are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as they describe the time of Jesus Christ Our Lord. The first three are fairly similar, but John has some extra bonuses that account for miracles and sayings of Jesus not found in the other books, so my suggestion for the New Testament would be John.

[Knight of Orient]

i noticed a lot of these questions have to deal with why God made people (or angels such as lucifer(satan)) when he knew theyd in short go bad or such. The thing is that i notice is what would the point be for God to make mindless humans who would go to heaven automatically because they have no other choice. the elements such as satan and the apple from the garden of eden were thrown in as tests for us, to see if we would choose God. He made it so we have our own choice, not a predestined course of life.

[MR. Nate]

3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

this is the only interesting point, simply because communism and anarchy have roots in theological philosophy and practise. ah blessed insight

Free will means the freedom to chose what to do, not the freedom from consequences. You are free to do whatever you want, you just don't want Christians dictating the legal consequences.
And any law legislates morality: it's what laws do; they declare that things are wrong. You say we should have freedom outside of killing someone, isn't that you saying that your morality of not killing should be legislated?

It's in the word "true", Nate. If god knows what a person is going to do before this person does it this knowledge has to be true, otherwise it wouldn't be knowledge. But if it is true there is only one course of action for this person, namely, the one that god knows this person will take.
I don't see a logical leap there.

There are still two courses of action available to the person, and the person still has the freedom to choose which one they want. The fact that we WILL make a certain decision does not mean we didn't have the choice.

I've used human examples in the past, and you have always objected that it is not knowledge, only conjecture. But that does not change the fact that with very limited knowledge, we can predict simple decisions with a huge degree of accuracy. God knows exactly how we think, and exactly how we have acted in the past, and exactly what our emotional and mental makeup is. In addition, He has known all of that for eternity past. With God, there are no variables, he already knows them.

So, with the enormous amount of background knowledge God has, hugely accurate conjecture becomes fact, without stemming freedom of the individuals choice.

[joecoolfrog]

But the Mighty Frog is omnipotent and he tells me that all Christians are simply in denial of the one true master of the Universe

[muy_thaiguy]

But the Mighty Frog is omnipotent and he tells me that all Christians are simply in denial of the one true master of the Universe

I hope that wasn't the one I ran over in the road this morning.

[Wisse]

not sure if this is asked already but i always had one question that i didn't understand

why does the bible nearly only go about humands, why not other beasts etc. you would think they could have a chance too, but i never saw a rabbit or what ever beast do kind of things we do. i don't believe in god but i have respect in the people who do.
(i hope i didn't wrote something wrong there)

[MeDeFe]

It's in the word "true", Nate. If god knows what a person is going to do before this person does it this knowledge has to be true, otherwise it wouldn't be knowledge. But if it is true there is only one course of action for this person, namely, the one that god knows this person will take.
I don't see a logical leap there.

There are still two courses of action available to the person, and the person still has the freedom to choose which one they want. The fact that we WILL make a certain decision does not mean we didn't have the choice.

I've used human examples in the past, and you have always objected that it is not knowledge, only conjecture. But that does not change the fact that with very limited knowledge, we can predict simple decisions with a huge degree of accuracy. God knows exactly how we think, and exactly how we have acted in the past, and exactly what our emotional and mental makeup is. In addition, He has known all of that for eternity past. With God, there are no variables, he already knows them.

So, with the enormous amount of background knowledge God has, hugely accurate conjecture becomes fact, without stemming freedom of the individuals choice.

Not quite Nate, We're not talking about estimates and likelihoods, but about knowledge, 100% true even before the event takes place, if the knowledge god has about a course of action is true even before it happens there is only the illusion of a choice, in reality it has then been clear all along what we will do, and if it is clear how we will act, how can there be any freedom of will?

You even said it yourself "[...]He has known all of that for eternity past. With God, there are no variables, he already knows them". This sentence leads me to the conclusion that nothing we do is anything more than the result of an immediately preceding (mental and physical) state, which also was nothing more than the result of the state before that.

[MR. Nate]

not sure if this is asked already but i always had one question that i didn't understand

why does the bible nearly only go about humands, why not other beasts etc. you would think they could have a chance too, but i never saw a rabbit or what ever beast do kind of things we do. i don't believe in god but i have respect in the people who do.
(i hope i didn't wrote something wrong there)

Animals don't have souls, so they don't have the need to be saved.

Not quite Nate, We're not talking about estimates and likelihoods, but about knowledge, 100% true even before the event takes place, if the knowledge god has about a course of action is true even before it happens there is only the illusion of a choice, in reality it has then been clear all along what we will do, and if it is clear how we will act, how can there be any freedom of will?

Because we still freely choose! We still make the choice ourselves! I hear what your saying about choices leading one to the other, but we can ALWAYS make a different choice.

There are three doors. You choose the one on the left, and it opens. Does whether or not the other two doors are locked make a difference?

[comic boy]

But the Mighty Frog is omnipotent and he tells me that all Christians are simply in denial of the one true master of the Universe

I hope that wasn't the one I ran over in the road this morning.

Afraid not !
The mighty Frog is not a physical entity,he may though occasionaly send along one of his kids to make sure we all toe the line. Perhaps you got one of those, best keep an eye out to see if he comes back to life in a day or two

[vtmarik]

Because we still freely choose! We still make the choice ourselves! I hear what your saying about choices leading one to the other, but we can ALWAYS make a different choice.

There are three doors. You choose the one on the left, and it opens. Does whether or not the other two doors are locked make a difference?

But if you know that there are three doors, that you will walk through one of them, and know all of the possibilities of choice that follow thereafter, where is free will?

God is a being that sees and knows all, yet can't see the results of people's choices. Who's putting God in a box now?

[bryguy]

OK I've been reading the Christians go back and forth with the nonbelievers or whatever you want to call them. I find the whole idea of eternal bliss or eternal damnation an interesting topic. I'm taking a world religions class. If the JF's here are willing I want to engage them in a discussion because I've got some questions for them.

I should define what I believe so we're all clear here. First of all I think the idea of evolution to be silly. Nature just magically selected certain species to survive and thrive? No way! There's too many holes in the theories and nobody's been able to prove it. The people who believe in it are welcome to it, but they've been given enough time to produce the evidence and they never are able to. There's too much complexity and design in the world for me to deny that there is some type of supreme being or higher power. If you want to call it God then go ahead.

On the other hand, you've got the Christians claiming that God loves everyone. There are so many inconsistencies with their claims. Let me just point out a few that I think are bogus.

1. God is omniscient. Ok if that's true then why did he create Satan knowing that he would one day rebel? Doesn't that mean that God indirectly created evil? Then how could He be considered a good God. Also why did he allow for man to eat the apple? That seems a little cruel to me - sort of like teasing a child into doing something that's bad for them.

2. If God is all powerful then why doesn't he just show himself to everyone? Either that or perform some miracle which would prove to everyone once and for all that he is actually interested in us. I think he exists by the way, but Christians tell us that he loves us. Why doesn't he get involved in all the wars here and put an end to them all? I don't think anyone can prove that this supreme being is really directly interested in our affairs.

3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is). On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!! Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

If any Jesus Freaks or Christians want to discuss this I will listen and not call you a name or make fun of you. My position is that there is some type of God or supreme being but it's impossible to personally know him as he stopped caring about us or is apathetic. I await any of you.

1.He created angels, Satan happened to be one of them. He gave them (like how he gave humans) the right of free will. After a while Satan figured he was more powerful than God, and he rebeled. There was a HUGE battle between Gods angels and the angels that sided with Satan. Gods side won, and banished Satan to hell with all the other angels who wished to go with him. Those angels we now call devils.

2. He is interested in our affairs, but if u look at what the USA goverment has been banning (no praying in school etc.) then u would know why, most goverments dont want Gods help at all. So God, being the kind gentleman he is, backed off. Soon after that happened, bad things started happening to the USA (9/11 attacks, hurricane Katrina, school shootings) and that sort of stuff is happening more and more because of it. And God once showed himself to Paul, a non-believer of God and a Christian persecuter, and Paul went blind. He doesnt get involved because the world leaders refuse his help, and he doesnt show himself to everybody because he is to magnificent. And he dos perform miracles, and he sent his only son, Jesus Christ, to prove that he was real.

3. They should and they are, but its just the goverment tries to stop them. All people down deep want to do good, not evil. Usually when they do evil they are possesed by demons, but that is people who kill.


4. that is not true, u cannot go around killing people (or anything like that) and then go to heaven. And if u live a life of good, u still will go to heaven. If u dont do any mortal sins (kill people, steal stuff etc.) but u still sin alot, then u will go to Pergatory. (dont know if i spelled that right)
Pergatory is a place between Heaven and Hell. Before u go there after u die, u get a brief glimpse at God. In Pergatory, God slowly makes u a better person (well, since your dead, its your soul he is making better)
and once all that is done, it might take centurys, u can go to Heaven.
And what u said for #4 was a protastants point of view, which is a breakoff of the real church, the Catholic church. Most protastants convert back to the Catholic church.

[bryguy]

Because we still freely choose! We still make the choice ourselves! I hear what your saying about choices leading one to the other, but we can ALWAYS make a different choice.

There are three doors. You choose the one on the left, and it opens. Does whether or not the other two doors are locked make a difference?

But if you know that there are three doors, that you will walk through one of them, and know all of the possibilities of choice that follow thereafter, where is free will?

God is a being that sees and knows all, yet can't see the results of people's choices. Who's putting God in a box now?

because of free choice, the future is never fixed. God can see all the possible futures, and he can try to steer us into the future that wont be bad and send us to hell, but we still always have a choice.

[vtmarik]

because of free choice, the future is never fixed. God can see all the possible futures, and he can try to steer us into the future that wont be bad and send us to hell, but we still always have a choice.

My point is that he can see all potential futures, being outside of time and all.

He can see you, what you might do, and all the consequences of all actions you could possibly take.

So I ask again, where does this leave free will? Sure, we're free to make any choice, but He's able to see every potential variation at the same time.