Do you consider Latter Day Saints (Mormons) to be Christians

[Optimus Prime]

You'll have to be a little more specific in what your asking about Joseph Smith. I've run into so many different questions about him over the years it would take forever to run through all of them at once.

See you tomorrow.

[Anarchist]

Alright, the difference. A "true" Christian is one who is born again. Jesus said, "Unless a man be born again he can not enter the Kingdom of God." There may be in fact a Mormon who has accepted Christ as his/her savior. But that being said, the Mormon as well as Jehovah Witness religions (and others) teach a false doctrine and where they "claim" to be Christian are not. A common word to describe such religions is cults.

Jay, I get the feeling I genuinely wont like you if we were ever to meet.
Your religion could easily be considered false and a cult aswell.

I consider them another christian sect, however they are very different from mainstream christians. While they also have corruption within their church(all religions do) Their heaven is more beautiful then most.

"born again" you believe in reincarnation too?

[rallison]

Hey everyone, my good friend optimus prime the rockin autobot told me about this thread so i decided to pop in and say hi. I'm also a member of the LDS church, i served my mission in Chihuahua Mexico... I dont post much in the forums, but i'll keep an eye out here and try to answer any questions that pop up. Discussion is always a good thing

[Anarchist]

Well, I apologize if you ran into a couple of LDS missionaries who were a little on the forceful or argumentative side. I can promise they are not instructed to act that way by any means.

Let's see, the Kingdoms of Heaven.

1. Celestial Kingdom: this is where God himself dwells with all those individuals who have achieved exaltation by living the gospel to its fullness (fullness of the gospel is a topic for another day though).

2. Terrestrial Kingdom: for those individuals who may have known the fullness of the gospel but perhaps did not live up to it all the way, or those who lived good, honest, well-meaning lives.

3. Telestial Kingdom: for those who did not live a righteous life.

One thing to understand is that even the lowest kingdom (Telestial) is incomprehensible in its glory to what we have on earth today. Yes, I know that will cause even more questions. It is kind of a difficult concept to explain all at once.

I've got to run to bed now, early work shift in the morning, but I'll check back tomorrow when I get the chance to answer more questions if there are some. If not, that's cool too.

Well said

[jay_a2j]

Jay, I get the feeling I genuinely wont like you if we were ever to meet.

Yeah, I'm sure many here feel the same way. I don't understand why though. I'm not as bad as some of you make me out to be. I just have a strong faith and am confident in what I believe.... I suppose I'm not "tolerant" enough.

Your religion could easily be considered false and a cult aswell.

I consider them another christian sect, however they are very different from mainstream christians. While they also have corruption within their church(all religions do) Their heaven is more beautiful then most.

"born again" you believe in reincarnation too?

I'm sure backglass would agree with you. I believe reincarnation is a Hindu belief. Sorry, no I don't fall into that category.

[Nephilim]

alrighty then, time for me to chime in. there are at least 2 approaches to the question at hand.

1) the academic approach: how should scholars of religion classify the LDS church? how are they similar to other christians? how are they different? usually scholars follow the rule of self-identification: if someone says they belong to a particular faith tradition, then they do. one interesting wrinkle with this side of the issue is the social and political backlash against LDS folks throughout american history. by that i mean, their marginalization from american politics and society is more easily effected if they are religiously marginalized. the dynamic has been fascinating, from what i've read

2) the ecclesial/church orthodoxy approach: where do LDS members fit into the christian tradition? are they heretical? is there room for an ecumenical discussion and cooperation? just how divisive are the theological differences?

as a student of religion and a (non-LDS) christian, i'm interested in both sides of the question (and i'm betting there are plenty more sides, i just can't think of 'em). and i appreciate most of the comments so far, but....

Alright, the difference. A "true" Christian is one who is born again. Jesus said, "Unless a man be born again he can not enter the Kingdom of God." There may be in fact a Mormon who has accepted Christ as his/her savior. But that being said, the Mormon as well as Jehovah Witness religions (and others) teach a false doctrine and where they "claim" to be Christian are not. A common word to describe such religions is cults.

i'm sorry, jay, but jesus and scriptural authors said a lot of things. there are many ways to describe the faith besides what you offer. plus, it has been repeated here that LDS folks actually do have faith in christ. another point: the false doctrine thing is up for debate. while i asked for people's opinions here, i would really like to see more than "i believe this and that." when talking about questions of orthodoxy and heresy, it might be more appropriate to appeal to a higher authority or a more important precedent than your personal beliefs. in other words, they aren't heretics just b/c you say so. there have been many offshoots of the mainstream church (whatever that is), some of which you would probably be a little more reticent to denounce. in fact, i'm betting your own tradition could be traced back to some persecution and claims of culthood or false teaching (most denominations have this somewhere in their background).

that being said, in contraposition to guilty biscuit's post, there is a discussion of whether they are really christians or not. just like there was a rather charged discussion of where the ebionites, arians, and gnostics belonged. i would love to see fewer authoritative statements about LDS beliefs by ill-informed people on both sides (that means you, luns).

some say they are christians b/c they believe in christ...but do they believe the "right" things about jesus? and it is important to note for luns and jay that many people believe many different things about jesus but are still grouped under the christian tent. this is a long discussion, folks....

[jay_a2j]

some say they are christians b/c they believe in christ...but do they believe the "right" things about jesus? and it is important to note for luns and jay that many people believe many different things about jesus but are still grouped under the christian tent. this is a long discussion, folks....

Which is why Jesus asked Peter "Who do you say that I am?" You can believe a lot of different things about Jesus.... long hair, short hair? Blue eyes, brown eyes? Prophet, teacher? But is He who he claimed to be? The Son of God, the Messiah...even God Himself? That is what separates a Christian from not.


A person who attends a Methodist church all his life yet never receives Christ as savior may himself claim to be a "Christian" but only in the worldly definition. "Someone who believes in Christ" as opposed to "A follower of Christ".

[Nephilim]

some say they are christians b/c they believe in christ...but do they believe the "right" things about jesus? and it is important to note for luns and jay that many people believe many different things about jesus but are still grouped under the christian tent. this is a long discussion, folks....

Which is why Jesus asked Peter "Who do you say that I am?" You can believe a lot of different things about Jesus.... long hair, short hair? Blue eyes, brown eyes? Prophet, teacher? But is He who he claimed to be? The Son of God, the Messiah...even God Himself? That is what separates a Christian from not.


A person who attends a Methodist church all his life yet never receives Christ as savior may himself claim to be a "Christian" but only in the worldly definition. "Someone who believes in Christ" as opposed to "A follower of Christ".

i should've known it was futile to try....do you have any clue how self-contradictory you are? you should really try reading good books, you will learn things that might expand your horizons and help you recognize rational thoughts and arguments

[jay_a2j]

i should've known it was futile to try....do you have any clue how self-contradictory you are? you should really try reading good books, you will learn things that might expand your horizons and help you recognize rational thoughts and arguments

Call it the mirror rebuttal.

[b.k. barunt]

Ok, you want to know about Mormonism? Go to the source. Read the Book of Mormon, and explain to me how a great civilization, with cities stretching from Canada to South America, left not one shred of physical evidence. In one battle, over a million men were killed - all wearing armor - did someone hide the evidence? Am i the only one who is dumbfounded that anyone could believe such a crock of shit? And the other book - Doctrines and Covenants - there are 2 original copies known. One is in the possession of the church, and the other is in the Harvard Library, and can be viewed on line. Buy a copy of today's version of "Doctrines and Covenants" and compare it to the original - God's word? Then why are the original and modern versions so different? The Bible hasn't changed in thousands of years, but the Mormon bible couldn't even make it 50 years before changes started. My house is marked on their maps, and they don't visit me anymore.

[Koesen]

The Bible hasn't changed in thousands of years

Not that I believe in mormonism, but this is not true. The Bible has been translated countless times. Inevitably, every translation will change things. How many people here have read the Bible in its original language? Very few if any, I'd say.

[Skittles!]

The Jews have.. But that's only the Old Testament.

[Skittles!]

I'm sure backglass would agree with you. I believe reincarnation is a Hindu belief. Sorry, no I don't fall into that category.

I believe in reincarnation, in a way, and I'm not Hindu.

[The1exile]

Mormons believe that Jesus was a procreated being by God the Father (who they call Elohim). Christians believe Jesus is eternal and has no beginning.

Since when do xians believe that? I'm pretty sure Jesus is suipposed to have had a beginning when he was born, or at least when he was conceived.

[jay_a2j]

Mormons believe that Jesus was a procreated being by God the Father (who they call Elohim). Christians believe Jesus is eternal and has no beginning.

Since when do xians believe that? I'm pretty sure Jesus is suipposed to have had a beginning when he was born, or at least when he was conceived.

Genesis...."Let us create man in our image." Who was God talking too? The other members of the trinity. Jesus has always existed. Christians believe in a triune God that consists of 3 persons who are eternal and are equal to each other.

[2dimes]

Mormons believe that Jesus was a procreated being by God the Father (who they call Elohim). Christians believe Jesus is eternal and has no beginning.

Since when do xians believe that? I'm pretty sure Jesus is suipposed to have had a beginning when he was born, or at least when he was conceived.

I would imagine since the gospel of "John" was written, most likely before it was misstranslated to the version that the Later Day Saints believe to be truth also, save a few foot notes Joseph had to add.

I made the part that describes Jesus as being eternal and existing with God before anything here was made violet. The only misstranslation I've personally seen that does not include nearly that exact discription are the ones from the "watch tower society".

And the part that says no other man has seen God blue. The closest regular people got is seeing glimpses of his power, ie. Moses and the bush, the priests that would go to the holy of holies in the old jewish temples.

Though my understanding, from the teachings I've heard from Latter Day Saint missionarys is everyone was an angel. They seem to believe in some sort of viel of something that causes people like Backglass to forget the time when they were with God before they volunteered to be put in a human form to come here to learn how to be a god.

Down near the bottom is one of those parts of the bible that describes a conversation about Jesus being no mere profit or teacher guy, 45-51. Some dude named Philip telling his buddy to come check out Jesus, his buddy says something about "he's from one of the worst towns around, he must be a bad person." then they meet up and changes his mind, deciding Jesus is full on "the son of God".

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

19And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

21And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

22Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

24And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

26John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

27He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

28These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

35Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

36And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

37And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

38Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

39He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

40One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

41He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

42And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

43The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

44Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.

45Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

46And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.

47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

48Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

49Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

50Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

[Nephilim]

just wanted to add my two cents on a few things, maybe offer some clarification:

The Bible hasn't changed in thousands of years

Not that I believe in mormonism, but this is not true. The Bible has been translated countless times. Inevitably, every translation will change things. How many people here have read the Bible in its original language? Very few if any, I'd say.

it's not just translations that change things, there are tens of thousands of biblical manuscripts that are pieced together into our bibles. there are countless discrepancies in these manuscripts; no single manuscript contains the actual text corresponding to your english translations.

however, bk barunt raises an excellent point: it has been proposed that LDS leaders change the wording of their holy texts when convenient. i don't really know much about that.

also, 2dimes hit on a better passage than jay for the pre-existence of christ: early parts of john's gospel are the strongest and most explicit examples of this theology, i believe. also hebrews 1 has it pretty strong.

oh, and once again i must note: christian identity is not defined by you, jay.

Christians believe in a triune God that consists of 3 persons who are eternal and are equal to each other.

there have always been christians who thought of one god rather than three. and i think a lot of historical theologians would say that the concept of the trinity developed in the second or third century; it is never explicitly taught in the bible. there are traces of the idea in a few places, but they are shady, and a developed trinitarian theology came later. just saying: there is room for discussion about this....it is not closed off

well, i've gotten off the LDS discussion....should we consider the great christian creeds as a test of faith? what do LDS folks think about the apostle's creed or nicean? i imagine they would say that these are not biblical and are a perversion of true apostolic teaching?

[Optimus Prime]

Man, lots of good debate going on in here. I'm just on my lunch break, so I don't have time to respond to anything, but later this evening I will. I wanted to pose a question though for everyone to respond to in the meantime.

Question: How many of you can list for me even five of the basic beliefs of the LDS Church?

Everyone is spouting off about a bunch of the deep doctrine, but what about the basic stuff? I'd like to see some of you list out what you know.

[Jenos Ridan]

Alright, the difference. A "true" Christian is one who is born again. Jesus said, "Unless a man be born again he can not enter the Kingdom of God." There may be in fact a Mormon who has accepted Christ as his/her savior. But that being said, the Mormon as well as Jehovah Witness religions (and others) teach a false doctrine and where they "claim" to be Christian are not. A common word to describe such religions is cults.

I'm not Mormon, but from what I understand Mormons believe in the words of the Bible, both Old & New Testaments. In addition to that is the Book of Mormon.

Mormon is also recognized as an "official" religion. I don't know, but I'm guessing Mormons would find it quite offensive to refer to them as a "cult".

The Moonies & those nutcases in California that committed mass suicide thinking a spaceship in the tail of a comet was coming to save them are cults.

They believe in the words of the Bible and the Book of Mormon. (false doctrine) If you take "the truth" and add "lies" to the truth the truth becomes corrupted.

No doubt they would be offended. There are many "official religions". Jesus said HE was the "way" the "truth" and the "life".



To static_ice Scripture states, "You say that you believe in God? Good! Even demons know there is a God and tremble!"

To assume that one needs to add a second set of scripture is to assume that God is limited and that He needs man's help to save man. This is what is implied by the Mormans, and it contrary to 'what is found in scripture. God is the 'one true' god, all others are false and therefore unworthy of worship. As far as having bad doctrine, the Mormans are worse than the Catholics.

Yes, even Satan knows the truth. How else can he be able to keep it from you if he didn't know it?

[The1exile]

Genesis...."Let us create man in our image." Who was God talking too? The other members of the trinity. Jesus has always existed. Christians believe in a triune God that consists of 3 persons who are eternal and are equal to each other.

Like when the Royal family refers to themselves as "we", perhaps? Or just a bad translation?

I was raised a Catholic and this is the first I've ever heard that Jesus was around forever. Not saying it's wrong, just that if you're denouncing tyhem for that, then you're going to have to cut a lot more than just Mormons out of xianity.

[b.k. barunt]

Question: How many of you can list for me even five of the basic beliefs of the LDS Church?

OK - (1). God "is a man like unto one of yourselves" and he became God as all good Mormons will become gods of their own planets if they follow Mormon doctrine ("Times and Seasons", vol. 5, pp.613-614. (2). Joseph Smith stated clearly in Doctrines and Covenants that polygamy was sanctified by God ( ch.132:1-4, 19,20,34,35,38,39,52,60-62). Brigham Young took it a step further, to where you couldn't enter the kingdom of god if you only had one wife. Due to obvious pressure from the secular world, the church changed its beliefs to what we have today. (3). The Bible is an "insufficient guide" to God in and of itself (Do i really need a footnote for this one?). (4).The blood sacrifice of Jesus cannot atone for all sins - some must be atoned for by the shedding of mans blood (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 1, p. 136). (5). Until 1978, Mormon doctrine held that Negroes were an inferior race, and although they could become Mormons, they could never become Mormon priests ("Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 477). Evidently God changed His mind in 1978, in order to form a more politically correct church.

[rallison]

To assume that one needs to add a second set of scripture is to assume that God is limited and that He needs man's help to save man. This is what is implied by the Mormans, and it contrary to 'what is found in scripture. God is the 'one true' god, all others are false and therefore unworthy of worship. As far as having bad doctrine, the Mormans are worse than the Catholics.

Yes, even Satan knows the truth. How else can he be able to keep it from you if he didn't know it?

I'm a little confused by what you are saying here. How is having more scriptures saying that God is limited? In my mind, having more scriptures is saying that God wants to help us out more. Saying that God can no longer communicate by giving us scriptures is putting limits on him.

I dont mean to offend or anything, could you maybe clarify what you said a little bit more?

[Jenos Ridan]

Mormons believe that Jesus was a procreated being by God the Father (who they call Elohim). Christians believe Jesus is eternal and has no beginning.

Since when do xians believe that? I'm pretty sure Jesus is suipposed to have had a beginning when he was born, or at least when he was conceived.

Genesis...."Let us create man in our image." Who was God talking too? The other members of the trinity. Jesus has always existed. Christians believe in a triune God that consists of 3 persons who are eternal and are equal to each other.

Bravo! Also, Elohim is one of the old hebrew names for God, Yahweh is another.

[Jenos Ridan]

Question: How many of you can list for me even five of the basic beliefs of the LDS Church?

OK - (1). God "is a man like unto one of yourselves" and he became God as all good Mormons will become gods of their own planets if they follow Mormon doctrine ("Times and Seasons", vol. 5, pp.613-614. (2). Joseph Smith stated clearly in Doctrines and Covenants that polygamy was sanctified by God ( ch.132:1-4, 19,20,34,35,38,39,52,60-62). Brigham Young took it a step further, to where you couldn't enter the kingdom of god if you only had one wife. Due to obvious pressure from the secular world, the church changed its beliefs to what we have today. (3). The Bible is an "insufficient guide" to God in and of itself (Do i really need a footnote for this one?). (4).The blood sacrifice of Jesus cannot atone for all sins - some must be atoned for by the shedding of mans blood (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 1, p. 136). (5). Until 1978, Mormon doctrine held that Negroes were an inferior race, and although they could become Mormons, they could never become Mormon priests ("Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 477). Evidently God changed His mind in 1978, in order to form a more politically correct church.

Which all Proves that the Mormons are blasphemers.

[Jenos Ridan]

To assume that one needs to add a second set of scripture is to assume that God is limited and that He needs man's help to save man. This is what is implied by the Mormans, and it contrary to 'what is found in scripture. God is the 'one true' god, all others are false and therefore unworthy of worship. As far as having bad doctrine, the Mormans are worse than the Catholics.

Yes, even Satan knows the truth. How else can he be able to keep it from you if he didn't know it?

I'm a little confused by what you are saying here. How is having more scriptures saying that God is limited? In my mind, having more scriptures is saying that God wants to help us out more. Saying that God can no longer communicate by giving us scriptures is putting limits on him.

I dont mean to offend or anything, could you maybe clarify what you said a little bit more?

The entire reason for the Book of Mormon is to say that the sacrifice on the Cross was a pointless affair, since by Mormon doctrine, it does not save, in spite of the directness scripture says about it. The fact that the Book of Mormon has NO factual documentation prior to the mid-19th century says to it intending to limit God by requiring man to 'fix' God's work.