GabonX interjects an interesting poll

[oVo]

After WW2 there were even more Nazis in US military research projects.

Even more than when? Two thirds of the allied forces fighting in Europe were of German descent.

[Phatscotty]

I'm not sure the question you asked could be reasonably answered in a yes or no question, when you gave us the choices of Americans or Germans.

To be fair it said Nazis not Germans, there would have been German Americans fighting in the US forces, mind you there were a few Nazis in the US government administration also

You will have to provide evidence of any but a very few isolated Germans (spies, technical advisors, essentially) fighting for the US. In fact, many German Americans experiences prejudice. Nowhere near as extreme as that of the Japanese Americans, but we had internment camps for Nazis sympathizers, captured German prisoners (though "prison" sometimes meant being sent out to farms to help tend crops).

I am afraid that this is a case where, while carrying grudges certainly is not the best way to go, we have to be careful not to rewrite history into a "Germans were not all that bad". They made some pretty heneous errors and did allow Hitler to come to power, were an extremely formidable force and came very close to virtually destroying the world as we know it.

Yes as I recall sauerkraut was even banned here. nice counter as I was about to correct him as well. The Germans IM very humble O were horribly misled. Their leader fed them a bunch of BS, and gave them reasons to hate others, and played on fear and politics and division. sounds familiar? I mean seriously, look at people in general. Before the election, IRAQ IRAQ GET EM OUT OBAMA, GET EM OUT. BUSH IS SO BAD LOOK AT IRAQ!!!!!!!! and now their savior is going status-quo in Iraq, but these same people stopped giving a shit now cuz it's their guy who is doing it. Do you see how bad Idiots can destroy a society?

[Phatscotty]

I vote the German people were at fault in the end, even though they may have tried to stop Hitler. They were so used to every time Hitler said "the government will give you this and it's good for you" they believed him, and even if it was bad, it was better than it was supposed to be. And they didn't really want to slaughter jews, but after all the jews (in their eyes) are to blame for everything, so I will look the other way. Likewise in Russia, russian citizens were thankful that their political prison served 3 hot meals a day, and thanks stalin sincerely before every meal, all the way until they dug their own grave. They were all too proud to have lived under stalin, that Great Russian Leader! WOO HOO The idiots of society are easily controlled, just useful idiots and nothing more

[Titanic]

I vote the German people were at fault in the end, even though they may have tried to stop Hitler. They were so used to every time Hitler said "the government will give you this and it's good for you" they believed him, and even if it was bad, it was better than it was supposed to be. And they didn't really want to slaughter jews, but after all the jews (in their eyes) are to blame for everything, so I will look the other way. Likewise in Russia, russian citizens were thankful that their political prison served 3 hot meals a day, and thanks stalin sincerely before every meal, all the way until they dug their own grave. They were all too proud to have lived under stalin, that Great Russian Leader! WOO HOO The idiots of society are easily controlled, just useful idiots and nothing more

So are all people who live under totalitarian governments today at fault for the choices of their leadership?

[luns101]

Who the hell voted no?!?!

Nazi sympathizers

[PLAYER57832]

You misunderstood my remark,I used the expression Nazi within the context of the original question,more accurately I would say Fascist sympathisers,Kennedy being the best example. Again the US was noted simply because of the original context, there were also many supporters of Hitler in Britain and the rest of Europe.

This is something that is easy to say looking back with 20-20 vision. The truth is that there is a very fine line between saying "let the fittest survive" and "let market forces dictate" and the concept of eugenics. Ironically, real eugenics is actually facing a bit of a comback -- not in regards to any whole race, but in things like people with Tay sachs genes electing on their own, not to have children, etc. (not advocating, just saying in heavy moderation its not entirely insane).

This is part of what makes Americans so uncomfortable, and Germans, too. It is also why Germany could be so easily seduced into following Hitler. And, I think that is the real warning to us all. The next Hitler may already be here.

[Phatscotty]

Who the hell voted no?!?!

Nazi sympathizers

liberals

[Timminz]

Who the hell voted no?!?!

Nazi sympathizers

liberals

So, your position is that all liberals think the nazis were the good guys in WWII?

[comic boy]

Who the hell voted no?!?!

Nazi sympathizers

liberals

Were the ones who fought Fascism during the thirties

[muy_thaiguy]

Who the hell voted no?!?!

Nazi sympathizers

liberals

Were the ones who fought Fascism during the thirties

Could have sworn that it was other German political parties, like the ones that were not of the Nazi Party?

[AgentSmith88]

Who the hell voted no?!?!

Nazi sympathizers

liberals

Were the ones who fought Fascism during the thirties

Could have sworn that it was other German political parties, like the ones that were not of the Nazi Party?

Could have sworn some people would blame Swine Flu, AIDS, and hurricanes on liberals. Then again, when you ramble incoherently every time you post about how everything is the liberals' and Obama's fault, I guess blaming the Holocaust on them makes sense as well.

[PLAYER57832]

Could have sworn some people would blame Swine Flu, AIDS, and hurricanes on liberals. Then again, when you ramble incoherently every time you post about how everything is the liberals' and Obama's fault, I guess blaming the Holocaust on them makes sense as well.

Didn't you know? The right wing is quite intent on changing the definition of "liberal" to "evil". When you can't win the debate, just change the definitions. After all, isn't that right in the Oxford debate rules as a proper debate tactic?

No? Well, it seems to be working anyway, at least among far too many people.

[muy_thaiguy]

Could have sworn some people would blame Swine Flu, AIDS, and hurricanes on liberals. Then again, when you ramble incoherently every time you post about how everything is the liberals' and Obama's fault, I guess blaming the Holocaust on them makes sense as well.

Huh? You sure you responded to the correct post? I wasn't blaming the Holocaust on the liberals, nor even making it seem like it. I blame it on the Nazis. I blame nature for hurricanes, even though there are none where I live, AIDS on HIV (hyuck hyuck), and swine flu on the regular flu as it is a strain of it that has adapted to pigs as well as humans. I do ramble, but so does every half wit on this forum. But still, I don't see where you get this crap where I blame everything on liberals.

Could have sworn some people would blame Swine Flu, AIDS, and hurricanes on liberals. Then again, when you ramble incoherently every time you post about how everything is the liberals' and Obama's fault, I guess blaming the Holocaust on them makes sense as well.

Didn't you know? The right wing is quite intent on changing the definition of "liberal" to "evil". When you can't win the debate, just change the definitions. After all, isn't that right in the Oxford debate rules as a proper debate tactic?

Yes, because every right wing person is an extremist to you, aren't they? Simply is someone is registered as GOP, they are now a right wing nut job.

[comic boy]

Who the hell voted no?!?!

Nazi sympathizers

liberals

Were the ones who fought Fascism during the thirties

Could have sworn that it was other German political parties, like the ones that were not of the Nazi Party?

Well I would like you to list these political parties because after 1933 there was no organised opposition to Hitler, In any case I was talking about physically fighting the Fascists as in Spain and on the streets in Britain.

[Woodruff]

I vote the German people were at fault in the end, even though they may have tried to stop Hitler. They were so used to every time Hitler said "the government will give you this and it's good for you" they believed him, and even if it was bad, it was better than it was supposed to be. And they didn't really want to slaughter jews, but after all the jews (in their eyes) are to blame for everything, so I will look the other way. Likewise in Russia, russian citizens were thankful that their political prison served 3 hot meals a day, and thanks stalin sincerely before every meal, all the way until they dug their own grave. They were all too proud to have lived under stalin, that Great Russian Leader! WOO HOO The idiots of society are easily controlled, just useful idiots and nothing more

So are all people who live under totalitarian governments today at fault for the choices of their leadership?

To a degree, yes.

For the specific choices? No. Are they responsible for them being in their leadership position? Yes, I would say they're responsible, if the individual did not do what they could (I would make an exception for extremes) to see that the individual did not get into power...even if it were a military coup-style takeover. Everyone is responsible for their leadership.

[muy_thaiguy]

I thought Mussolini was the Fascist dictator, Hitler the Nazi, and Franco had hardly anything that related to fascism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_under_Franco

And I don't think that fascists would have actually come into control in Britain unless Hitler somehow had made a successful invasion, which never came close to happening. You know, with Parliament, Churchill, and a Constitutional Monarchy and all.

[oVo]

...why Germany could be so easily seduced into following Hitler.

Wasn't Adolf Hitler the person who originally said, "Follow me if you want to live."
There was something happening in Asia and the Pacific that this poll overlooks.

[GabonX]

The Japanese were the good guys then?

[thegreekdog]

Could have sworn some people would blame Swine Flu, AIDS, and hurricanes on liberals. Then again, when you ramble incoherently every time you post about how everything is the liberals' and Obama's fault, I guess blaming the Holocaust on them makes sense as well.

Yes, because liberals are so measured and coherent in their own arguments and blamed virtually nothing on President Bush... your hypocrisy knows no bounds...

Wasn't Adolf Hitler the person who originally said, "Follow me if you want to live."

No... Arnold Schwarzenegger as the Terminator said, "Come with me if you want to live."

[MeDeFe]

After WW2 there were even more Nazis in US military research projects.

I think you mean Germans.

Both.

Most of the rest were involved in USSR military resarch projects. Aah, isn't it funny how upright Nazi party members who (at least some of them, by no means all) used to experiment on "sub-humans" could become upright freedom-loving capitalists as well as upright communists with a strong sense of social justice?

[Titanic]

I thought Mussolini was the Fascist dictator, Hitler the Nazi, and Franco had hardly anything that related to fascism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_under_Franco

And I don't think that fascists would have actually come into control in Britain unless Hitler somehow had made a successful invasion, which never came close to happening. You know, with Parliament, Churchill, and a Constitutional Monarchy and all.

During the Spanish Civil War it was the liberals and intellectuals who faught against Franco, who was heavily supported by Hitler (by providing troops, planes, tanks etc..). Proves the point that liberals were fighting against the Nazis in the 30's.

[Titanic]

I vote the German people were at fault in the end, even though they may have tried to stop Hitler. They were so used to every time Hitler said "the government will give you this and it's good for you" they believed him, and even if it was bad, it was better than it was supposed to be. And they didn't really want to slaughter jews, but after all the jews (in their eyes) are to blame for everything, so I will look the other way. Likewise in Russia, russian citizens were thankful that their political prison served 3 hot meals a day, and thanks stalin sincerely before every meal, all the way until they dug their own grave. They were all too proud to have lived under stalin, that Great Russian Leader! WOO HOO The idiots of society are easily controlled, just useful idiots and nothing more

So are all people who live under totalitarian governments today at fault for the choices of their leadership?

To a degree, yes.

For the specific choices? No. Are they responsible for them being in their leadership position? Yes, I would say they're responsible, if the individual did not do what they could (I would make an exception for extremes) to see that the individual did not get into power...even if it were a military coup-style takeover. Everyone is responsible for their leadership.

Then you clearly do not understand these regimes. Anyone who even voices opposition is imprisoned or killed. Its a matter of shutting up and living, or protesting and your whole family getting killed. You cannot blame the Germans for the things the Nazis did, or blame the Cambodians for what Pol Pot did, or blame North Koreans for what Kim Jong Il is doing.

[thegreekdog]

After WW2 there were even more Nazis in US military research projects.

I think you mean Germans.

Both.

Most of the rest were involved in USSR military resarch projects. Aah, isn't it funny how upright Nazi party members who (at least some of them, by no means all) used to experiment on "sub-humans" could become upright freedom-loving capitalists as well as upright communists with a strong sense of social justice?

Well, yeah, that was kind of my point. To paraphrase from a television show, the day after Germany surrendered, nary a Nazi could be found.

[PLAYER57832]

After WW2 there were even more Nazis in US military research projects.

I think you mean Germans.

Both.

Most of the rest were involved in USSR military resarch projects. Aah, isn't it funny how upright Nazi party members who (at least some of them, by no means all) used to experiment on "sub-humans" could become upright freedom-loving capitalists as well as upright communists with a strong sense of social justice?

Well, yeah, that was kind of my point. To paraphrase from a television show, the day after Germany surrendered, nary a Nazi could be found.

I was in the plane, down south a few years ago. The plane was almost empty, but a lady with a small child of mixed race sat across the isle. We got to talking and it turned out she was from Germany. We chatted and at some point I think I asked her how her visit had gone, what she thought of the US, etc. She railed me with disgust at the racism in our country. Now, this was the south, and even though things had changed a GREAT deal, it was/is definitely not yet a "model of racial acceptance". Still, as I listened to her rail on and on, I began to bristle a bit. I agreed,to a point, but when she told me that "it just isn't like that in Germany", I reminded her that both the south and Germany had nasty histories. She kind of sneered and said "you mean the Nazis". I said, "no, I mean Germans."

Now, understand, this was mostly a snotty response to some snotty comments, but I do think its all too easy for some German's to forget their history. Forgetting history is a good way to ensure it is repeated. Most Germans, today, are very tolerant, educated, etc. However, much as they might wish to forget history, I think none of us ever should.

[Titanic]

I was in the plane, down south a few years ago. The plane was almost empty, but a lady with a small child of mixed race sat across the isle. We got to talking and it turned out she was from Germany. We chatted and at some point I think I asked her how her visit had gone, what she thought of the US, etc. She railed me with disgust at the racism in our country. Now, this was the south, and even though things had changed a GREAT deal, it was/is definitely not yet a "model of racial acceptance". Still, as I listened to her rail on and on, I began to bristle a bit. I agreed,to a point, but when she told me that "it just isn't like that in Germany", I reminded her that both the south and Germany had nasty histories. She kind of sneered and said "you mean the Nazis". I said, "no, I mean Germans."

Now, understand, this was mostly a snotty response to some snotty comments, but I do think its all too easy for some German's to forget their history. Forgetting history is a good way to ensure it is repeated. Most Germans, today, are very tolerant, educated, etc. However, much as they might wish to forget history, I think none of us ever should.

Theres a difference between forgetting history and moving on. The German nation and its people are nothing like the Nazis, and I am 100% sure that they know what their history is and what happened in the past and aren't trying to forget what happened. However relating to your story, I believe the woman is right. Even non-americans know what kind of people live in the south and don't have to visit there to know its still very racist, whilst in Europe you rarely get whole communities or regions full of white supremacists and deeply racist so her point that "it just isn't like that in Germany" is 100% valid.