Age of Man

[Dukasaur]

I find the black letters in the legend to be quite pixellated. Not really difficult to read, but close. Borderline.

Interestingly, the white letters on the main map don't seem to have that problem, even though it's the same font. I'm not really sure why the difference.

[Teflon Kris]

I find the black letters in the legend to be quite pixellated. Not really difficult to read, but close. Borderline.

Interestingly, the white letters on the main map don't seem to have that problem, even though it's the same font. I'm not really sure why the difference.

Thanks for looking-in.



Yeah, just a temporary thing. Due to GIMP-text-Mac-font issues the legend scroll text will be dodgy for a while but resolved in good time, although if it continues to prove hard to read I will sort sooner (solution involves sorting my laptop out)

[macbone]

Looking nice, Kris!

The legends say AM = Amazonians, but on the territories, it looks like you used AT.

The text for "+2 for every 3 (when holding a Civilization Stronghold)" could be a little darker for clarity. Maybe the "All: +1 Auto-deploy", too.

I'm having trouble distinguishing the difference between the blue- and cyan-colored terts. Are all the terts inside the Age of Man inset blue, and the terts outside more cyan?
f
It seems like an interesting fight for the middle. I don't know if it's better to have balanced starting terts or imbalanced.

Are the victory conditions 1. Olympus + Atlantis or 2. the Underworld?

I like the look of this map, and I think I'd enjoy playing it. =)

[Teflon Kris]

Latest Updates.

I'm only part-way through the bunch of changes I wanted to make for the net update but thought it useful to see if development on the army circles is on the right track:



Update includes:

• Army Circle changes
  Removal of strongholds bombarding Atlantis.
  Correction of Amazon names
  Olympus background perspective fiddling
  Grass a bit greener

[Fewnix]

L am really starting to like the look of this map and want to take it out for a spin


Suggestion: From the point of view of a game player rather than a map maker, how about the smooth flow continues with a final Alpha version run by the Beta testers and see what they, players of the map to be, think in terms of possible game play before it gets put to them to play with?

A few last tweaks? and then its on the road for the Beta Testers to come up with bugs.

[waauw]

L am really starting to like the look of this map and want to take it out for a spin


Suggestion: From the point of view of a game player rather than a map maker, how about the smooth flow continues with a final Alpha version run by the Beta testers and see what they, players of the map to be, think in terms of possible game play before it gets put to them to play with?

A few last tweaks? and then its on the road for the Beta Testers to come up with bugs.

All that's necessary for that is a working XML and volunteers for the beta-website.

[Teflon Kris]

Interesting point, thanks guys, I might start to think about xml for potential early testing.

Lots to do before then, including sorting civilisation stronghold icons. Do either of these versions do the trick, I'd like some similarity but a clear difference between 'outer' and 'inner' strongholds (other parts of this update include adjustment to main victory condition at the top)?

Edit: I think this adaptation works better than either below:

Rejected Options

Which is better, or which is closest to what would work (e.g. 'the second is better but needs a little more difference between the icons)?

[waauw]

Interesting point, thanks guys, I might start to think about xml for potential early testing.

Ask ManBungalow first though. Don't take me at my word on that.

[Teflon Kris]

Working on graphics (background etc.) in the absence of any offical comments atm.

Sneak Preview

Here's a sneak previewq of progress on the main map background image:

Old:



Latest:

[waauw]

really starting to look nice the man! Keep it up!
I've been thinking btw, have you tried something else but the papyrus paper as a background(not the scrolls, the general background)?
I get the feeling like the scrolls + the paper is a bit too much of the same colour. That's just my opinion of course.

[Teflon Kris]

really starting to look nice the man! Keep it up!
I've been thinking btw, have you tried something else but the papyrus paper as a background(not the scrolls, the general background)?
I get the feeling like the scrolls + the paper is a bit too much of the same colour. That's just my opinion of course.

Thanks dude, your comments and ideas have been A1 for me, really helpful (currently messing with some of the tools your forum guide suggestions have shown me and feeling the graphics potential is expanding).





Re: The general background

• I was thinking of the main background being another scroll, now that I have freed up a few pixels top and bottom (and its feasible to pinch some more)? However, I take your point. Maybe there is some way of creating a background whereby the main map, inset and mini-insets (AT, OL etc) somehow fit some kind of ancient world writing theme? Hmmm, maybe something like a page of an ancient greek book? The main map and insets could be like illustrations and some of the scrolls info. could be presented as the book's text? It would be an excessively illustrated page of the book but it could work.
  
  Another idea might be to put everything onto three or four scrolls, which would probably need to be mainly horizontal (main map and inset scrolls some legend info in each of their four corners)? The scrolls could be laid out on a wooden table, as though the battle masterminds of one of the civilisations are planning their battle.
  
  Final idea for tonight is a similar layout to the last one, but instead of scrolls, their could be a mixture of a scroll, an open book and some old paper with paperweights to hold it down (e.g. maybe some gladiator-or-other might have used his knife to hold down one side, and a celtic crystal for the other side?
  
  Other ideas welcome.

Thanks for sending me on this train of thought waauw.



I'll keep these, and any incoming ideas on the same overall layout theme, in the bank for now though as I have two current objhectives I'm aiming for:

• General Graphical Upgrade (insets as per main map, scrolls text, attack routes etc).
  
  Introduce a, slightly complex, new gameplay dimension (more stuff in the style of my recent underworld 'extension'). I'll not say too much so that folks see the whole 'extension' all in one go, otherwise it wouldn't make sense if I revealed some of the parts and not the whole.

Thanks again waauw, for your continuing interest, thoughtfulness and constructivism. And thanks to everyone else that has commented too, these are darks times in the foundry so your encouragement counts for a lot.




Any road up, my last post was supposed to show this as the latest version but I up-loaded the wrong layer.

What I Did and Should Have Posted

What I was supposed to post:



What I did post:

[waauw]

Re: The general background

I was thinking of the main background being another scroll, now that I have freed up a few pixels top and bottom (and its feasible to pinch some more)? However, I take your point. Maybe there is some way of creating a background whereby the main map, inset and mini-insets (AT, OL etc) somehow fit some kind of ancient world writing theme? Hmmm, maybe something like a page of an ancient greek book? The main map and insets could be like illustrations and some of the scrolls info. could be presented as the book's text? It would be an excessively illustrated page of the book but it could work.

Another idea might be to put everything onto three or four scrolls, which would probably need to be mainly horizontal (main map and inset scrolls some legend info in each of their four corners)? The scrolls could be laid out on a wooden table, as though the battle masterminds of one of the civilisations are planning their battle.

Final idea for tonight is a similar layout to the last one, but instead of scrolls, their could be a mixture of a scroll, an open book and some old paper with paperweights to hold it down (e.g. maybe some gladiator-or-other might have used his knife to hold down one side, and a celtic crystal for the other side?

Other ideas welcome.

Could work, I especially like the would table idea. What could also work is stone or metal to refer to the timeperiod(stone-/bronze age).

On a gameplay issue, as mentioned by someone else before, it might be better to have underworld acess points geographically more spread out.
I also think the occupation resistance(-2) would make the Underworld too unpopular as the current gameplay leads me to think it's all about achieving victory objectives rather than elimination.
Also do Cerebus and Tartarus attack anything?

[Teflon Kris]

Could work, I especially like the would table idea. What could also work is stone or metal to refer to the timeperiod(stone-/bronze age).

On a gameplay issue, as mentioned by someone else before, it might be better to have underworld acess points geographically more spread out.
I also think the occupation resistance(-2) would make the Underworld too unpopular as the current gameplay leads me to think it's all about achieving victory objectives rather than elimination.
Also do Cerebus and Tartarus attack anything?

I agree re. Underworld being unpopular, as things stand atm, with my planned development that may well change. If the development doesnt come-off and the map layout is pretty-much as currently depicted then there would need to be some adjustment to the decay amount, underworld bonus value and/or initial neutral values.

As for access to the underworld (i.e. to Cerebus at the entrance), it can be accessed from Athens or the Holy Lands, both of which are accessed from all central strongholds. This provides equal access to all players. Alternatively, equal access could be maintained if central strongholds (or even all strongholds) could access the underworld. However, if I were to follow the various access points from greek mythology then some central strongholds would have access, but it would be unbalanced (players with some starting positions may be disadvantaged in certain game types). Tartarus has a planned purpose for my future developement, although Cerebus would remain simply the entrance region.

Regarding overall strategy and a potential 'race' for an objective, it is again worth reconsidering after the planned development. In fact, the developments make me wonder whether to ditch the objectives (or make the netherworlds objective harder) as it will provide more ways of killing opponents. Indeed, in order to ensure the new ways of killing opponents are attractive, I am considering ways of making straight runs for kill(s) more difficult (whether they be either through the treachourous routes or through-the-centre-and-back-out).

Anyway, we will consider your thoughts again when the developments are in place. Important gameplay issues. I am hoping to firstly, notch the graphics up a level or two, then introduce my 'development' so that discussion at that point can focus on gameplay for a while.


P.S. I am currently fiddling with the 'Blur' tools, so next sneak preview will hopefully show improvement of the edge/border of the main map (before I move on to improve the background for the central inset and edges/borders for that and other insets).

[Teflon Kris]

Here's an update folks, hopefully improvements noticeable to background graphics and attack routes, thanks to some good tutorials in the foundry forums (even though some images have disappeared). I may change the colour of the attack routes to something that stands out more, or maybe not. Similarly, I have an alternative version with a faint outline to the land.



Next, I may fiddle with the underworld a little more (already fiddled with the three afterworld zones), then its time to add some extra interesting gameplay dimensions in the spaces now available. Longer term, I may go for a new overall layout as discussed above.

Shout at me if I haven't done something I said I would!

To Do List

Short-Term

• Finalise gameplay ideas for further additions (along the Netherworlds theme ), then add additional elements, create and find minimalistic explanations for further scrolls. Use different shapes for any new types of region introduced.

To-Do List - Further Ahead

• Pay a politician so the circle size doesn't matter / enrol Sepp Blatter as my lawyer.
  Background ornaments - Zeus / Poseidon / Egyptian Gods etc.
  Large Version - do lots of work after enlarging with the background and some other aspects.

Done

Scroll improvements.
Further work on Cerebus and Underworld background.
Addition of subtle outline for land.
Work on Atlantis & Olympus Insets.
Improve text on scrolls where it is least clear
Consider moving things around a little so the Underworld is below the Med inset
Reducing and changing icons.
Swap icons for Roman Colliseum / Ampitheatre.
Remove icon in South America and create a new one (plenty of possibilities here as no common visual concept of how Tiwanaku looked).
Army circles colour system / shapes
A little further work on Atlantis Inset.
Work on the background (land shapes, colouring, detail etc)

[DaGip]

Am I the only one that thinks this map looks like skinned raw testicles?

[macbone]

I really like this map, man! I'd enjoy playing on it.

So for the winning conditions, hold 10 strongholds to win? I only count 9 on the map. Or are the green circles strongholds, too? If so, I'd make the color more distinguishable. On the scroll, the two circles on either side of Strongholds look like they're the same color. Do the starred terts (Athens, etc.) also count as Strongholds? I see in the previous map that they did.

The routes look pretty clear to me.

Yes, it would be interesting to have more gameplay in the Underworld. Risk: Godstorm had an Underworld (or maybe Hades), but it seemed under-utilized. Lost troops would go to the Underworld to continue to fight, but that's not something that CC can handle right now.

[Dukasaur]

The Himalayas are kind of jarring. They seem so out-of-place with the rest of the map. I understand they're big mountains and all, but so are the Andes and the Rockies and so on. The Himalyas look like a big cast-iron frying pan dropped on the map.

[Teflon Kris]

So for the winning conditions, hold 10 strongholds to win? I only count 9 on the map. Or are the green circles strongholds, too? If so, I'd make the color more distinguishable. On the scroll, the two circles on either side of Strongholds look like they're the same color. Do the starred terts (Athens, etc.) also count as Strongholds? I see in the previous map that they did.

• Sorry, that version didnt have an update of the stronghhold symbols on the scroll. Hopefully, the version below is much clearer, although I could make the colours distinguishable if you think its still necessary now the scroll is right. There should be 18 now I think.
  
  You are right to notice Athens is no longer in the stronghold club for a +1.

The Himalayas are kind of jarring. They seem so out-of-place with the rest of the map. I understand they're big mountains and all, but so are the Andes and the Rockies and so on. The Himalyas look like a big cast-iron frying pan dropped on the map.

• Thanks. Looking at the map so much, I cant see the obvious any more. I will scale-down the himalayas 3D effect as well as adding the same effect for the Andes, and offer a comparison of both with a mild 3D and both with no 3D (this is now on the 'To Do List').

Here's the latest version with strongholds scroll corrected and the much-awaited new elements added:



Obviously next I will add scrolls to show what the gameplay roles of these new elements are (2xHeroes (Achilles & Hercules); 4xGods (Ra, Zeus, Poseidon & Hades); the Titans; and the Kraken).

To Do List

Short-Term

• Add region names and army numbers for new gameplay elements.
  Create and find minimalistic explanations for further scrolls regarding new gameplay elements. Use different shapes for new types of region introduced.
  Consider and try full names on actual regions (but not legend scrolls) for AT, OL & HP.
  Invite gameplay discussion and consider remove of both objectives.
  Reduce/remove 3D Himalyas 'frying pan' effect (and add reduced effect to Andes for consideration.
  Improve elipses for main map and inset (including inset elipse on main map) - add pattern if possible.
  Other graphical improvements.

To-Do List - Further Ahead

• Pay a politician so the circle size doesn't matter / enrol Sepp Blatter as my lawyer.
  Background ornaments - Zeus / Poseidon / Egyptian Gods etc.
  Large Version - do lots of work after enlarging with the background and some other aspects.
  Consider and try alternatives for overall layout of the different sections.
  'Embellishments' (maybe along the lines of the Celtic sun God now in the Atlantic) in any space left.

Done

Scroll improvements.
Further work on Cerebus and Underworld background.
Addition of subtle outline for land.
Work on Atlantis & Olympus Insets.
Improve text on scrolls where it is least clear
Consider moving things around a little so the Underworld is below the Med inset
Reducing and changing icons.
Swap icons for Roman Colliseum / Ampitheatre.
Remove icon in South America and create a new one (plenty of possibilities here as no common visual concept of how Tiwanaku looked).
Army circles colour system / shapes
A little further work on Atlantis Inset.
Work on the background (land shapes, colouring, detail etc)

Long-term, the favorite overall layout idea in my mind is:

• Main map and Med inset map ('Lands of the Great Sea') to each be on a parchment
• Some gameplay/legend notes on each in the corners of these parchments
• A book with 2 pages of info and mini-elipses for the heroes, gods, underworld etc (this will also deal with the brighter colours/pastel clash with the main map)
• A couple of small scrolls in any space left for any other info (e.g. Abbreviations)

[macbone]

Cool! I like the new images! =) Gameplay with Kraken and Zeus? Excellent!

The "OL" seems a little weird, since you have room there for Olympus. What does it look like with Olympus, Atlantis, and Hades' Palace spelled out? The 7 beside AT could be shifted over to make room for Atlantis, and I think Hades' Palace would fit. You could retain "OL" on the scroll to show that Athens attacks Cerebus and OL.

Yes, the green circled strongholds are much easier to distinguish now. =)

[Teflon Kris]

The "OL" seems a little weird, since you have room there for Olympus. What does it look like with Olympus, Atlantis, and Hades' Palace spelled out? The 7 beside AT could be shifted over to make room for Atlantis, and I think Hades' Palace would fit. You could retain "OL" on the scroll to show that Athens attacks Cerebus and OL.

Yeah, I may giver it a try. I dont want to cover-up the view down from Olympus, took me ages. I'll add this to the 'To Do List', and yeah, it would help to keep the abbreviations as they will save space for the upcoming gameplay scrolls, probably. Or maybe I can give them all distinct circles / shapes. Hmmmm .......


Anyway, here's an update, with legend scrolls for the new regions, army shapes and numbers (region names to be added, plus some legend scroll tidying):

[macbone]

I like all the different gameplay elements here.

The Kraken seems really powerful since it can directly attack villages. Perhaps the neutral stack there should be higher? Would 20 be too restrictive?

All strongholds getting a +1 autodeploy seems pretty strong to me.

The text on the scrolls still looks a little indistinct. The font could be sharper, I think.

The borders around the numbers for the gods could be a bit more distinct from the borders on the game map territories. They look fine on the actual territories, but on the scrolls, they look a bit more like circles. Still, they're distinct enough from the terts due to their white centers.

There's a lot of information here, but careful reading of the legend shows players what they need to know.

I assume that Cerebus attacks HP and Tartarus, but could you make that more explicit in the map?

[dakky21]

Could you try to anti-alias the circles, they are too edgy on some places as:


Also same thing on the smaller one above Illyrians and Thracians

[owenshooter]

zzzzzzz...-Jésus noir

[Teflon Kris]

I like all the different gameplay elements here.

The Kraken seems really powerful since it can directly attack villages. Perhaps the neutral stack there should be higher? Would 20 be too restrictive?

All strongholds getting a +1 autodeploy seems pretty strong to me.

The text on the scrolls still looks a little indistinct. The font could be sharper, I think.

The borders around the numbers for the gods could be a bit more distinct from the borders on the game map territories. They look fine on the actual territories, but on the scrolls, they look a bit more like circles. Still, they're distinct enough from the terts due to their white centers.

There's a lot of information here, but careful reading of the legend shows players what they need to know.

I assume that Cerebus attacks HP and Tartarus, but could you make that more explicit in the map?

I'm just working on the scrolls currently, maximising space to change the shape and size of some scrolls so that text and symbols can be bigger generally - at that point you may want to re-visit gameplay thoughts, especially as I made an error with the Kraken scroll - to release the Kraken will read as requiring 1 x Hero, 1 x God + The Titans.

I'm hoping th gameplay scenario means players build-up on their strongholds (+trade route regions) and then, killing players by going outwards from the centre isnt too relaistic. Instead, for kills, players have 3 options: either through Zeus+Olympus opening attacks on outer strongholds; Poseidon+Atlantis making Treacherous regions easy to take; or by releasing the Kraken (which requires releasing the titans first). Other God/hero options may be used by players to reduce opponents strength in the centre.

Could you try to anti-alias the circles, they are too edgy on some places as:


Also same thing on the smaller one above Illyrians and Thracians

I will be working on the elipse shapes around the main map and med inset soon.

[Teflon Kris]

Here's an update with improved legend-scrolls and new region names finally added (although 'Ra', 'Kraken' & 'Zeus' text labels need to be made more readable - e.g. changing text colour).:

To Do List

Short-Term

• Make 'Ra', 'Kraken' and 'Zeus' text more readable (change text colour).
  Consider and try full names on actual regions (but not legend scrolls) for AT, OL & HP.
  Invite gameplay discussion and consider remove of both objectives.
  Reduce/remove 3D Himalyas 'frying pan' effect (and add reduced effect to Andes for consideration.
  Improve elipses for main map and inset (including inset elipse on main map) - add pattern if possible.
  Other graphical improvements.

To-Do List - Further Ahead

• Pay a politician so the circle size doesn't matter / enrol Sepp Blatter as my lawyer.
  Background ornaments - Zeus / Poseidon / Egyptian Gods etc.
  Large Version - do lots of work after enlarging with the background and some other aspects.
  Consider and try alternatives for overall layout of the different sections.
  'Embellishments' (maybe along the lines of the Celtic sun God now in the Atlantic) in any space left.

Done

Add region names and army numbers for new gameplay elements.
Create and find minimalistic explanations for further scrolls regarding new gameplay elements. Use different shapes for new types of region introduced.
Scroll improvements.
Further work on Cerebus and Underworld background.
Addition of subtle outline for land.
Work on Atlantis & Olympus Insets.
Improve text on scrolls where it is least clear
Consider moving things around a little so the Underworld is below the Med inset
Reducing and changing icons.
Swap icons for Roman Colliseum / Ampitheatre.
Remove icon in South America and create a new one (plenty of possibilities here as no common visual concept of how Tiwanaku looked).
Army circles colour system / shapes
A little further work on Atlantis Inset.
Work on the background (land shapes, colouring, detail etc)

Long-term, the favorite overall layout idea in my mind is:

• Main map and Med inset map ('Lands of the Great Sea') to each be on a parchment
• Some gameplay/legend notes on each in the corners of these parchments
• A book with 2 pages of info and mini-elipses for the heroes, gods, underworld etc (this will also deal with the brighter colours/pastel clash with the main map)
• A couple of small scrolls in any space left for any other info (e.g. Abbreviations)