Some thoughts for non-believers

[Frigidus]

...so did God plan for Lucifer to turn to evil?

Plan.. no.

Allow it to happen, know that when he made Lucifer the way he was it would happen.. yes.

So he made a clockwork toy, wound it up, put it down, and it wasn't his fault when it walked off the edge of the table?

Look, the guy's mysterious.

[neanderpaul14]

I was on one of my frequent walks through the Chihuahua desert and ran low on water. After resting in the shade of a giant yucca, I decided to try and make it back to base camp in the heat of the day. Wrong move. Half way there, out of water, and in the searing sun, I met up with two beings arguing. Each had huge feather wings, and glowed with a light not from the hot sun. I knew in my gut that I was dealing with angels. They argued loudly, each accusing the other of "betraying" the "lord." I got the impression that one came from the exiled and one from the favorites. I decided to intervene. I walked up close and put one hand on each of the angels. The sensation was exhilarating. I said "Can't we all get get along." The angels were thunderstruck, turned to each other and embraced. The embrace went on for some time -- I got uncomfortable and backed away. They then started making out and humping right there on the desert floor. I guess the rift in heaven is over.

Miraculously, I was able to make it back to base camp without need for any more water.

Wow........so exactly how much peyote did you eat????

[MeDeFe]

I was on one of my frequent walks through the Chihuahua desert and ran low on water. After resting in the shade of a giant yucca, I decided to try and make it back to base camp in the heat of the day. Wrong move. Half way there, out of water, and in the searing sun, I met up with two beings arguing. Each had huge feather wings, and glowed with a light not from the hot sun. I knew in my gut that I was dealing with angels. They argued loudly, each accusing the other of "betraying" the "lord." I got the impression that one came from the exiled and one from the favorites. I decided to intervene. I walked up close and put one hand on each of the angels. The sensation was exhilarating. I said "Can't we all get get along." The angels were thunderstruck, turned to each other and embraced. The embrace went on for some time -- I got uncomfortable and backed away. They then started making out and humping right there on the desert floor. I guess the rift in heaven is over.

Miraculously, I was able to make it back to base camp without need for any more water.

DaGip? Is that you?

jesterhawk, can you point me to the part in the bible where the devil's rebellion is described in as great detail as in your post? I've never been able to find it.

Sure:

Isaiah 14:10-16
Ezekiel 28:12-19
Revelation 12

I don't see a third of all angels mentioned anywhere, I don't get why the devil is called "King of Tyre", and Isaiah could be about practically anything.

I think you are reading too much into a few passages and have watched too many movies. Not that I have anything against the movies, I rather enjoy some of them myself.

[AAFitz]

...so did God plan for Lucifer to turn to evil?

Plan.. no.

Allow it to happen, know that when he made Lucifer the way he was it would happen.. yes.

So he made a clockwork toy, wound it up, put it down, and it wasn't his fault when it walked off the edge of the table?

It could have chosen to stay on the table, and theoretically could get back up on the table if it wanted to...or at least, that would be the argument.

The parent/child analogy is close too. A parent brings a child into the world, and tries to keep them from being evil...but still sometimes that child still does do evil things. Is it the parents fault? Sometimes, and to varying degrees, but sometimes its really the childs responsibility completely. He had all the info he needed, and all the guidance, and all the warnings, and still chose to follow the path of evil...

Obviously in this case the parent wasnt omnipotent, and couldnt force the child to be good...but if they could do that, they would have removed free will...

again, thats the argument for it anyways. If you choose to believe in a higher power, arguments like these are pretty mundane actually. Compared to there is a God/there isnt the side discussions really go no where. Only enmasse do the two sides of the equation start to take shape, and give the person a body of evidence to consider when making the choice...or...choosing subconsciously, which I presume happens just as often.

[jonesthecurl]

...so did God plan for Lucifer to turn to evil?

Plan.. no.

Allow it to happen, know that when he made Lucifer the way he was it would happen.. yes.

So he made a clockwork toy, wound it up, put it down, and it wasn't his fault when it walked off the edge of the table?

It could have chosen to stay on the table, and theoretically could get back up on the table if it wanted to...or at least, that would be the argument.

S'alright - I was just winding them up...

[Juan_Bottom]

The parent/child analogy is close too. A parent brings a child into the world, and tries to keep them from being evil...but still sometimes that child still does do evil things. Is it the parents fault? Sometimes, and to varying degrees, but sometimes its really the childs responsibility completely. He had all the info he needed, and all the guidance, and all the warnings, and still chose to follow the path of evil...

Obviously in this case the parent wasnt omnipotent, and couldnt force the child to be good...but if they could do that, they would have removed free will...

again, thats the argument for it anyways. If you choose to believe in a higher power, arguments like these are pretty mundane actually. Compared to there is a God/there isnt the side discussions really go no where. Only enmasse do the two sides of the equation start to take shape, and give the person a body of evidence to consider when making the choice...or...choosing subconsciously, which I presume happens just as often.

This makes zero sense when applied to angels. Angels were made directly by God, the same as Adam and Eve. God shaped their personalities his self/herself. They didn't get a lifetime of experiences to shape their humanity, God made them exactly the way they were. God would have made the Devil "evil" and then punished him for it. Huge hole in religious logic... thus proving them double stupid?

[jesterhawk]

The parent/child analogy is close too. A parent brings a child into the world, and tries to keep them from being evil...but still sometimes that child still does do evil things. Is it the parents fault? Sometimes, and to varying degrees, but sometimes its really the childs responsibility completely. He had all the info he needed, and all the guidance, and all the warnings, and still chose to follow the path of evil...

Obviously in this case the parent wasnt omnipotent, and couldnt force the child to be good...but if they could do that, they would have removed free will...

again, thats the argument for it anyways. If you choose to believe in a higher power, arguments like these are pretty mundane actually. Compared to there is a God/there isnt the side discussions really go no where. Only enmasse do the two sides of the equation start to take shape, and give the person a body of evidence to consider when making the choice...or...choosing subconsciously, which I presume happens just as often.

This makes zero sense when applied to angels. Angels were made directly by God, the same as Adam and Eve. God shaped their personalities his self/herself. They didn't get a lifetime of experiences to shape their humanity, God made them exactly the way they were. God would have made the Devil "evil" and then punished him for it. Huge hole in religious logic... thus proving them double stupid?

Only if you believe that God created angelic beings without any freedom of choice and that they were bound and forced, or created, to only serve God without deviation. However, the Bible points out that one angel did and was allowed to make a choice thus showing us that angels are not merely mindless servants, but beings with freedom to choose. The main difference between angels and humans is that we are not in the presence of God in heaven when we make our choice.

JH

[Symmetry]

The parent/child analogy is close too. A parent brings a child into the world, and tries to keep them from being evil...but still sometimes that child still does do evil things. Is it the parents fault? Sometimes, and to varying degrees, but sometimes its really the childs responsibility completely. He had all the info he needed, and all the guidance, and all the warnings, and still chose to follow the path of evil...

Obviously in this case the parent wasnt omnipotent, and couldnt force the child to be good...but if they could do that, they would have removed free will...

again, thats the argument for it anyways. If you choose to believe in a higher power, arguments like these are pretty mundane actually. Compared to there is a God/there isnt the side discussions really go no where. Only enmasse do the two sides of the equation start to take shape, and give the person a body of evidence to consider when making the choice...or...choosing subconsciously, which I presume happens just as often.

This makes zero sense when applied to angels. Angels were made directly by God, the same as Adam and Eve. God shaped their personalities his self/herself. They didn't get a lifetime of experiences to shape their humanity, God made them exactly the way they were. God would have made the Devil "evil" and then punished him for it. Huge hole in religious logic... thus proving them double stupid?

Only if you believe that God created angelic beings without any freedom of choice and that they were bound and forced, or created, to only serve God without deviation. However, the Bible points out that one angel did and was allowed to make a choice thus showing us that angels are not merely mindless servants, but beings with freedom to choose. The main difference between angels and humans is that we are not in the presence of God in heaven when we make our choice.

JH

Huh- that's quite interesting. Christian teaching traditionally ascribes free will only to humans, and not to angels. I'm guessing that you've been looking at Aquinas for some of this, but it'd be interesting to know what denomination you follow. The traditional Catholic hierarchy ascribes free will to humans specifically as the difference between human and angelic beings. Protestantism tends to ignore angels except as an aspect of God in the form of the Holy Ghost. Still, there're lots of sects and churches.

It's kind of interesting that you suggest that humans are not in the presence of God in heaven though. I'm guessing that you're making a distinction between God on earth and God in heaven. That's a fairly provocative distinction.

[haggispittjr]

god vs atheism. an everlasting battle? good vs logic? how long will it be? i dont think there is, but jese do hope for an afterlife so these questions can be awnsered to me.

[2dimes]

Haggis I didn't mean my last response toward you to be negative. I hope it didn't seem like it was. Have a good week.

[haggispittjr]

i didnt think it was, i dont have 1 bad thing to say about you. and btw, alot of people misinterpreted the poem. atheism is nothing, but because its nothing, it means everything, if you could wrap your haed around that.

[haggispittjr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCUYiflkXHc&feature=fvst

"it won't make you think life is worth living,
it has nothing to offer me, that's true,
but the reason Atheism offers me nothing is because I've never asked it to,
Atheism offers nothing because it doesn't need to,
Religion promises everything because you want it to,
You don't need a Religion or to have faith,
You just want it because you need to feel safe,
I want to feel reality and nothing more,
Atheism offers me everything,
that Religion has stolen before."

[notyou2]

I was on one of my frequent walks through the Chihuahua desert and ran low on water. After resting in the shade of a giant yucca, I decided to try and make it back to base camp in the heat of the day. Wrong move. Half way there, out of water, and in the searing sun, I met up with two beings arguing. Each had huge feather wings, and glowed with a light not from the hot sun. I knew in my gut that I was dealing with angels. They argued loudly, each accusing the other of "betraying" the "lord." I got the impression that one came from the exiled and one from the favorites. I decided to intervene. I walked up close and put one hand on each of the angels. The sensation was exhilarating. I said "Can't we all get get along." The angels were thunderstruck, turned to each other and embraced. The embrace went on for some time -- I got uncomfortable and backed away. They then started making out and humping right there on the desert floor. I guess the rift in heaven is over.

Miraculously, I was able to make it back to base camp without need for any more water.

DaGip? Is that you?

jesterhawk, can you point me to the part in the bible where the devil's rebellion is described in as great detail as in your post? I've never been able to find it.

Sure:

Isaiah 14:10-16
Ezekiel 28:12-19
Revelation 12

I don't see a third of all angels mentioned anywhere, I don't get why the devil is called "King of Tyre", and Isaiah could be about practically anything.

I think you are reading too much into a few passages and have watched too many movies. Not that I have anything against the movies, I rather enjoy some of them myself.

So, it appears that its a matter of interpretation. That's what I find wrong about religion, the interpretations. You can interpret many passage to mean different things. It's when so called "religious people" with influence over others interpret passages to their own ends that religion fails the masses.

[luns101]

DaGip? Is that you?

Wasn't the name of that angel, Mike?

[Juan_Bottom]

Only if you believe that God created angelic beings without any freedom of choice and that they were bound and forced, or created, to only serve God without deviation.

I'm not talking about being servants. I'm saying it's a logical impossibility that an omnipresent being who knows everything about everything can create a conscious mind directly without knowing what that mind will think up... and thus God would have known before he even considered making Lucifer what he would do.

[Frigidus]

Only if you believe that God created angelic beings without any freedom of choice and that they were bound and forced, or created, to only serve God without deviation.

I'm not talking about being servants. I'm saying it's a logical impossibility that an omnipresent being who knows everything about everything can create a conscious mind directly without knowing what that mind will think up... and thus God would have known before he even considered making Lucifer what he would do.

It seems so strange that, coincidentally perhaps, every creationist I have ever argued with fails to grasp this point.

[john9blue]

It's like Sim City. Haven't you ever started a fire in your city, or randomly demolished buildings, or somehow fucked things up for the fun of it, and watched people panic, because it would be boring otherwise? To see if your city could still make it? That's what God was thinking when he made Lucifer: "this ought to be interesting".



EDIT: @ Juan- That's a philosophical question about free will. If you're determinist then yeah, God did know.

[notyou2]

It's like Sim City. Haven't you ever started a fire in your city, or randomly demolished buildings, or somehow fucked things up for the fun of it, and watched people panic, because it would be boring otherwise? To see if your city could still make it? That's what God was thinking when he made Lucifer: "this ought to be interesting".



EDIT: @ Juan- That's a philosophical question about free will. If you're determinist then yeah, God did know.

So he made the devil for entertainment purposes.

Well that sounds rather malevolent and self centered.

Also, I think it belittles humans to nothing more than lab rats.

[Frigidus]

It's like Sim City. Haven't you ever started a fire in your city, or randomly demolished buildings, or somehow fucked things up for the fun of it, and watched people panic, because it would be boring otherwise? To see if your city could still make it? That's what God was thinking when he made Lucifer: "this ought to be interesting".

OK, I can buy that.

EDIT: @ Juan- That's a philosophical question about free will. If you're determinist then yeah, God did know.

Not Really. Here's 4 points that seem to me indisputable given the common definition of the Christian God.

1. God knows everything about everything

2. God created everything

3. Given the first two points, God knew everything there was to know about everything before he created it

4. Given the third point, God knew Satan was a bad egg

Where am I wrong there?

[Juan_Bottom]

EDIT: @ Juan- That's a philosophical question about free will. If you're determinist then yeah, God did know.

Well that sounds rather malevolent and self centered.

Still, these are the kinds of Christians that a person can respect.

[Juan_Bottom]

Only if you believe that God created angelic beings without any freedom of choice and that they were bound and forced, or created, to only serve God without deviation.

I'm not talking about being servants. I'm saying it's a logical impossibility that an omnipresent being who knows everything about everything can create a conscious mind directly without knowing what that mind will think up... and thus God would have known before he even considered making Lucifer what he would do.

It seems so strange that, coincidentally perhaps, every creationist I have ever argued with fails to grasp this point.

I know right?!?

[mpjh]

DaGip? Is that you?

Wasn't the name of that angel, Mike?

DaGip has passed to the other side.

[PLAYER57832]

...so did God plan for Lucifer to turn to evil?

Plan.. no.

Allow it to happen, know that when he made Lucifer the way he was it would happen.. yes.

So he made a clockwork toy, wound it up, put it down, and it wasn't his fault when it walked off the edge of the table?

It is the paradox of free will.

You raise your kids, but as much as you don't want them to make mistakes, you have to give them the chance. We are God's children, only he is not just a parent, he is God.

Anyway, it is belief. There is no proof, no absolute surety to show anyone else. (and I think we have had this discussion before )

[mpjh]

Don't think it was a discussion. The believers just spouted dogma.

[Kotaro]

If the Believers spouted Dogma, then the non-believers merely troll'd, closed their minds to anything except themselves, and sat in the darkness that is ignorance.