Would you abort a down syndrome fetus?

[Anarkistsdream]

I would abort any baby. Kick her in the stomach if you have to... My favorite is pushing them down stairs.

[suggs]

I would abort any baby. Kick her in the stomach if you have to... My favorite is pushing them down stairs.

But it takes ages to set up the barbed wire...

[Napoleon Ier]

A woman's right to chose is superseded by the child's right to life.

1) Thanks for telling us what rights are, and who should have them.
Why dont you just declare yourself as God and be done with it?
2) It (YAWN) isnt a child its a foetus.
3) Its none of your business.

1)Sure thing.
2)Really? A foetus, at eight weeks, with beating heart and cerebral cortex isn't human? I guess disabled people aren't either? People in comas?
3)Yes it damn well is. If someone is taking away the liberty of a child, I will fight for its rights to a life.

[Neutrino]

2)Really? A foetus, at eight weeks, with beating heart and cerebral cortex isn't human? I guess disabledpeople and negroes aren't either?

It takes more than organs to make a human. Until very close to birth, there is no way it could be considered even faintly sentient.

P.S. Good job playing the racist card.

3)Yes it damn well is. If someone is taking away the liberty of a child, I will fight for its rights to a life.

So all the millions of Africans who are starving and dying of preventable diseases don't deserve your support? It'll take far less effort to stop someone from starving than to get Abortion declared illegal. In terms of raw number of lives saved and in fact total happyness (the foetus has no more mind than a chicken, therefore could only suffer as much as a chicken, while a fully grown adult can and will suffer a lot more)donating money to Africa is a far better move.

[Napoleon Ier]

I edited the "racist card" since it was badly proposed. The principle you use to argue for abortion however, is identical to that of slave traders in the 19th C. "They are part of the slave owner's/woman's property/body and not human beings".
As I say, people in a coma are not sentient, but they are mebers of homo sapiens. And you have no right to kill them, or an unborn child.

[Neutrino]

I edited the "racist card" since it was badly proposed. The principle you use to argue for abortion however, is identical to that of slave traders in the 19th C. "They are part of the slave owner's/woman's property/body and not human beings".
As I say, people in a coma are not sentient, but they are mebers of homo sapiens. And you have no right to kill them, or an unborn child.

Ok, that's a matter of personal opinion. I doubt a conclusion will ever be reached.
You did, however, fail to respond to the second half of my post. Why is an unborn baby's life worth far more than a starving child in Africa? It'll take far less money to save the African child, so you can save more people per dollar. How is this bad? Why not support Aid Organizations which will save far more people than any Anti-Abortion organization ever will?

[Napoleon Ier]

Using U.N statistics, 1 billion children have been aborted 1946-2002.

That's only legal, recorded abortions....so I think the hell of a lot more lives are saved by pro-life cause.
Also I believe free-market forces should solve the African crisis, not influx of money going to lubricate government transactions via corruption.

[Ariel*]

but I mean if people get pregnant by accident they should be able to have an abortion. Technically the child doesn't have the right to live because it wasn't supposed to be there in the first place..

Edit: I know that's not what this thread is about. So I'll just add that if the parents doesn't want a baby with downs syndrome they should be able to make the choice to have an abortion because they created it. If they don't want it they shouldn't HAVE to go through the whole process just to give it away..

[unriggable]

Napoleon, how can the baby be its own entity if it can't live on its own, outside the body?

[Napoleon Ier]

Napoleon, how can the baby be its own entity if it can't live on its own, outside the body?

Unriggable, how can the person in a coma be a person if it can't live on its depends on a life support machine?

Answer --> Because it's substance is human, it's life is therefore sacred, or as a secularist like you could say, endowed with inalinebale rights.

[Neutrino]

Using U.N statistics, 1 billion children have been aborted 1946-2002.

What? Show me those figures (Not Wikipedia). They can't be right. That's almost a quarter of the worlds population growth, lost to abortion.

That's only legal, recorded abortions....so I think the hell of a lot more lives are saved by pro-life cause.

You forget that back-alley abortions will start up again if abortion is ever made illegal. Mothers and babys will die, rather than just babys

Also I believe free-market forces should solve the African crisis, not influx of money going to lubricate government transactions via corruption.

Huh? How will these mystical free-market forces solve the crisis? Africa doesn't have anything that anyone else wants, and even if it did it can generally be bought off them for a tiny percentage of its actual worth.

[Napoleon Ier]

but I mean if people get pregnant by accident they should be able to have an abortion. Technically the child doesn't have the right to live because it wasn't supposed to be there in the first place..

Ok. Take it forward a year. The parents, for whatever reason, couldn't get an abortion and have the child, then kill it at 2 months old. -"That's infanticide!", you exclaim, but surely it doesn't have a right to live, being accidental and all...

You see the flaw?

Accidental or no, it is a human, and has rights. Otherwise every child who had an unintended birth isn't really human.

[unriggable]

Napoleon, how can the baby be its own entity if it can't live on its own, outside the body?

Unriggable, how can the person in a coma be a person if it can't live on its depends on a life support machine?

Answer --> Because it's substance is human, it's life is therefore sacred, or as a secularist like you could say, endowed with inalinebale rights.

No, a vegetable relies on a man-made machine, the fetus completely naturally depends on the mother for everything. They aren't really comparable since the life had begun for the vegetable and now it comes to a close, but for the fetus we don't know when it legally becomes a person. If abortion were to be illegal on the grounds that a fetus is a person, then a pregnant woman with two children would have three children, and the US Census would count the unborn infant as a person of its own with an SSN and everything. You would be a citizen in the country you were conceived in. Does that make any sense to you?

[Napoleon Ier]

Using U.N statistics, 1 billion children have been aborted 1946-2002.

What? Show me those figures (Not Wikipedia). They can't be right. That's almost a quarter of the worlds population growth, lost to abortion.

I'll try...I found them ages ago in a leaflet though

That's only legal, recorded abortions....so I think the hell of a lot more lives are saved by pro-life cause.

You forget that back-alley abortions will start up again if abortion is ever made illegal. Mothers and babys will die, rather than just babys

Maybe. But the State must fight that, because it is murder. hell, backstreet murder happens. We don't for that make it legal. No. We have a duty to protect every human's rights, regardless of race, gender, or age.

Also I believe free-market forces should solve the African crisis, not influx of money going to lubricate government transactions via corruption.

Huh? How will these mystical free-market forces solve the crisis? Africa doesn't have anything that anyone else wants, and even if it did it can generally be bought off them for a tiny percentage of its actual worth.

Don't have time for this now. Read Friedman.

[Ariel*]

but I mean if people get pregnant by accident they should be able to have an abortion. Technically the child doesn't have the right to live because it wasn't supposed to be there in the first place..

Ok. Take it forward a year. The parents, for whatever reason, couldn't get an abortion and have the child, then kill it at 2 months old. -"That's infanticide!", you exclaim, but surely it doesn't have a right to live, being accidental and all...

You see the flaw?

Accidental or no, it is a human, and has rights. Otherwise every child who had an unintended birth isn't really human.

oh but that's another thing. If they made the decision to keep it, they gave the child its right to live. Because they made the choice..

[Napoleon Ier]

Napoleon, how can the baby be its own entity if it can't live on its own, outside the body?

Unriggable, how can the person in a coma be a person if it can't live on its depends on a life support machine?

Answer --> Because it's substance is human, it's life is therefore sacred, or as a secularist like you could say, endowed with inalinebale rights.

No, a vegetable relies on a man-made machine, the fetus completely naturally depends on the mother for everything. They aren't really comparable since the life had begun for the vegetable and now it comes to a close, but for the fetus we don't know when it legally becomes a person. If abortion were to be illegal on the grounds that a fetus is a person, then a pregnant woman with two children would have three children, and the US Census would count the unborn infant as a person of its own with an SSN and everything. You would be a citizen in the country you were conceived in. Does that make any sense to you?

Well you wouldn't necessarily have to have it registered at conception. That's irrelevant really, it doesn't matter the way we decide to officalize things, a life is a life.

[Snorri1234]

Napoleon, how can the baby be its own entity if it can't live on its own, outside the body?

Unriggable, how can the person in a coma be a person if it can't live on its depends on a life support machine?

Actually, not that I wanna derail this thread into an euthanasia debate, but taking "coma"-patients of life support really isn't a big deal. They can never wake again and are comparable to plants. They aren't sentient anymore and never will be. It's only the body that functions, not the brain.

[Napoleon Ier]

Napoleon, how can the baby be its own entity if it can't live on its own, outside the body?

Unriggable, how can the person in a coma be a person if it can't live on its depends on a life support machine?

Actually, not that I wanna derail this thread into an euthanasia debate, but taking "coma"-patients of life support really isn't a big deal. They can never wake again and are comparable to plants. They aren't sentient anymore and never will be. It's only the body that functions, not the brain.

People have woken up from comas.

In this analogy, we know for a dead cert the person will "wake" in 9 months.

[unriggable]

Napoleon, how can the baby be its own entity if it can't live on its own, outside the body?

Unriggable, how can the person in a coma be a person if it can't live on its depends on a life support machine?

Answer --> Because it's substance is human, it's life is therefore sacred, or as a secularist like you could say, endowed with inalinebale rights.

No, a vegetable relies on a man-made machine, the fetus completely naturally depends on the mother for everything. They aren't really comparable since the life had begun for the vegetable and now it comes to a close, but for the fetus we don't know when it legally becomes a person. If abortion were to be illegal on the grounds that a fetus is a person, then a pregnant woman with two children would have three children, and the US Census would count the unborn infant as a person of its own with an SSN and everything. You would be a citizen in the country you were conceived in. Does that make any sense to you?

Well you wouldn't necessarily have to have it registered at conception. That's irrelevant really, it doesn't matter the way we decide to officalize things, a life is a life.

So a life is important to keep but not so important that we get the records straight on when it begins? I don't see why you take such a loose stance yet get all hissy when women want to preserve their bodies.

[Snorri1234]

People have woken up from comas.

Yeah comas, not a vegative state. That's why I said "coma" as that is not actually the correct term. When a person is in a permanent vegative state showing no improvement whatsoever, they really won't wake again.

In this analogy, we know for a dead cert the person will "wake" in 9 months.

Wow, you're good at being dead certain on things no doctor can even guess at.

[Neutrino]

I'll try...I found them ages ago in a leaflet though

Your leaflet is utter crap. According to those figures, abortion causes a solid 30% of all deaths, the world over. Screw disease, hunger or war, abortion is the single most likely thing to die of.

[Napoleon Ier]

Your post of highest irrelevance.

[Neutrino]

Your post of highest irrelevance.

Mine? Snorri's? Unriggible's?

[Napoleon Ier]

I'll try...I found them ages ago in a leaflet though

Your leaflet is utter crap. According to those figures, abortion causes a solid 30% of all deaths, the world over. Screw disease, hunger or war, abortion is the single most likely thing to die of.

No they're not.

200.000 abortions per year in the UK alone...
1 million per year in the US...

I mean, we're making the numbers add up pretty fast here...

[Napoleon Ier]

Your post of highest irrelevance.

Mine? Snorri's? Unriggibles?

Snorri's.