Themeless twisted mafia Day 2. No deaths, 13/14 alive.

[Metsfanmax]

And as for aage's hypothesis, while I am willing to entertain it, I am not willing to entertain it now.

@jonty: why the f*ck would I claim? I already outright said I am trying to lay low this game so major FOS at you for rolefishing.

Why would any of us join the vote unless we have some reason to trust you?

[jonty125]

And as for aage's hypothesis, while I am willing to entertain it, I am not willing to entertain it now.

@jonty: why the f*ck would I claim? I already outright said I am trying to lay low this game so major FOS at you for rolefishing.

Lay low, you voted someone, without posting a reason.

[pancakemix]

And as for aage's hypothesis, while I am willing to entertain it, I am not willing to entertain it now.

@jonty: why the f*ck would I claim? I already outright said I am trying to lay low this game so major FOS at you for rolefishing.

Lay low, you voted someone, without posting a reason.

I'd agree, I wouldn't call that laying low by any stretch. Laying low is exactly what you're not doing.

Either way, your argument doesn't seem to make much sense, especially considering Neb wasn't lynched at the time of your argument and anyone could have unvoted. It could just as easily be applied to any of the other 7 people on that lynch, including you. So tell me: why specifically is superkeener measured and found wanting here?

[DoomYoshi]

I wasn't voting so that neb could be resurrected. Nor was anyone else, as far as I can tell.

[DoomYoshi]

FOS pcm for assuming a hammer case, when I didn't make one.

[aage]

I see no reason why a neb lynch shouldn't happen. With that being said, I don't think it is necessarily our best option. And before you ask me who is a better option, at this point, I have no idea.

Lynch me. I'll take shape's place.

you got it,

UNVOTE
VOTE NEB

that was the hammer

unovte
vote neb

Not a lot there.

I suspect it has to do with your role, but since apparently we don't get to see the role of people who died you're going to have to elaborate.

Interesting that you said role and NOT alignment.

Doom's alignment will tell us virtually nothing on day 2. His role would be far more interesting, because I expected him to have gotten information from last night. Plus, Doom would never tell us even if he were scum.

It appears he hasn't, though. Saying that voting for Neb was a scum move is hypocritical on your part, Doom. I quoted your vote on Neb because it was cast after Superkeener voted for Neb (technically just reasserted, but a vote is a vote).

I can see your motive-argument hold water, though. Superkeener said he saw no reason, and then voted because apparently Neb replacing Shape was a good reason. I say we humour you for the moment and see what Superkeener has to say.

[DoomYoshi]

My original vote also came after neb's plea bargain, and also was caused by it, but because I didn't buy it, not because I thought it was a good idea.

[thechuck51]

Either a) he was being serious about obliging neb. If this is the case, as I've explained, it means he is scum, since there is no reason for a town player to kill another townie if he knows that he is a VT.
or b)he is blindly BWing.

I am guessing a).
I already made the case yesterday... it seems nobody caught on.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but I think it is perfectly reasonable for town to lynch a VT. In fact I would say its the best outcome for day 1 (besides lynching scum which is unlikely at that point).

Neb (a claimed VT) asked to be lynched and super keener obliged. I don't see why its a big deal.

[DoomYoshi]

Either a) he was being serious about obliging neb. If this is the case, as I've explained, it means he is scum, since there is no reason for a town player to kill another townie if he knows that he is a VT.
or b)he is blindly BWing.

I am guessing a).
I already made the case yesterday... it seems nobody caught on.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but I think it is perfectly reasonable for town to lynch a VT. In fact I would say its the best outcome for day 1 (besides lynching scum which is unlikely at that point).

Neb (a claimed VT) asked to be lynched and super keener obliged. I don't see why its a big deal.

If you know someone is VT, it isn't reasonable at all. If we had an innocent child, would you lynch that player?

[aage]

Either a) he was being serious about obliging neb. If this is the case, as I've explained, it means he is scum, since there is no reason for a town player to kill another townie if he knows that he is a VT.
or b)he is blindly BWing.

I am guessing a).
I already made the case yesterday... it seems nobody caught on.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but I think it is perfectly reasonable for town to lynch a VT. In fact I would say its the best outcome for day 1 (besides lynching scum which is unlikely at that point).

Neb (a claimed VT) asked to be lynched and super keener obliged. I don't see why its a big deal.

If you know someone is VT, it isn't reasonable at all. If we had an innocent child, would you lynch that player?

An innocent child isn't similar to someone claiming VT. You never know someone is a VT, anyone can claim it for all the good it does them.

On the other hand, why vote for someone solely because they ask to be lynched?

[Iron Butterfly]

Presume for a moment that I am not randomly voting. Why would I vote superkeener?

There could be several.

1) You have used a night action and found him to be mafia.

2) You have your own theory as to why you believe him mafia, which you believe is not a random vote.

3)We have not addressed the elephant in the living room. I suspect we have a role in play that hides who a player is upon their death. Unless someone can come up with another explanation can we assume that will happen again? If that is the case then you could be mafia taking advantage of this fact.

[spiesr]

If you know someone is VT, it isn't reasonable at all. If we had an innocent child, would you lynch that player?

An innocent child isn't similar to someone claiming VT. You never know someone is a VT, anyone can claim it for all the good it does them.

Right, superkeener presumably wouldn't have known if Neb was a VT or not (although if he was scum he could make a pretty good guess). However, from his posts it rather looks like superkeener believed Neb's claim of VT. Which would mean that he was willing to lynch someone he believed to be town.

3)We have not addressed the elephant in the living room. I suspect we have a role in play that hides who a player is upon their death. Unless someone can come up with another explanation can we assume that will happen again? If that is the case then you could be mafia taking advantage of this fact.

Well, it could be possible that coming up as unknown was a trait of Neb's role specifically, although freezie's comment saying that no dead players would be able to replace seems to point to it being in place across the board. The only role that I can think of offhand that hides a player's role is the (Mafia) Janitor. However, the version I am familiar with only applies to the mafia's kills, not the lynch. Right now I am operating under the assumption that (one of?) this game's twist is that roles aren't revealed upon death (until we see a nightkill it is unclear if this is for the lynch only). If this is the case is raises some pretty significant questions about how this will affect strategy.

[gregwolf121]

it could be that there is a reviver type role out there, but the only way that i could see the alignement remaining unknown is that, the revived come back under the reviver, so possible third party group out there

[Iron Butterfly]

Can you think of a role that would not reveal upon death? I have only played in games where outside forces have such an effect.

If as you suggest this is a blanket effect, the "twist", then that would give a decided advantage to mafia as Town would be completely blind. So we either have an imbalanced game, which I highly doubt or roles which would help circumnavigate this effect.

I find it more probable that we have a mafia role and that once discovered and killed the problem would be solved.

i guess we will find out tonight.

[edocsil]

Can you think of a role that would not reveal upon death? I have only played in games where outside forces have such an effect.

If as you suggest this is a blanket effect, the "twist", then that would give a decided advantage to mafia as Town would be completely blind. So we either have an imbalanced game, which I highly doubt or roles which would help circumnavigate this effect.

I find it more probable that we have a mafia role and that once discovered and killed the problem would be solved.

i guess we will find out tonight.

There could be a coroner or something. That would result in ??? deaths in some games.

[safariguy5]

If you know someone is VT, it isn't reasonable at all. If we had an innocent child, would you lynch that player?

An innocent child isn't similar to someone claiming VT. You never know someone is a VT, anyone can claim it for all the good it does them.

Right, superkeener presumably wouldn't have known if Neb was a VT or not (although if he was scum he could make a pretty good guess). However, from his posts it rather looks like superkeener believed Neb's claim of VT. Which would mean that he was willing to lynch someone he believed to be town.

3)We have not addressed the elephant in the living room. I suspect we have a role in play that hides who a player is upon their death. Unless someone can come up with another explanation can we assume that will happen again? If that is the case then you could be mafia taking advantage of this fact.

Well, it could be possible that coming up as unknown was a trait of Neb's role specifically, although freezie's comment saying that no dead players would be able to replace seems to point to it being in place across the board. The only role that I can think of offhand that hides a player's role is the (Mafia) Janitor. However, the version I am familiar with only applies to the mafia's kills, not the lynch. Right now I am operating under the assumption that (one of?) this game's twist is that roles aren't revealed upon death (until we see a nightkill it is unclear if this is for the lynch only). If this is the case is raises some pretty significant questions about how this will affect strategy.

I'd think that if Neb knew his role would be hidden on death, he wouldn't have claimed VT. That clearly is not VT. It's possible that this is one of the twists of the game, but we won't know for sure until the next lynch. That said, I'm not following Doom's logic here. There were votes for neb after superkeener as well, I don't see what makes superkeener special. Especially odd is that with Neb's role hidden, we don't actually know if he was VT or not, so Doom's case still operates on unknown data.

[DoomYoshi]

No it doesn't.

Here's a deal: you vote me thinking that I will be replaced. Why am I being replaced? Because I am a VT. Name another (non-survivor) role that can replace into a game. If you think I am being replaced, therefore you think I am town. Therefore you are voting for town knowing full well the result.

How neb flipped has nothing to do with anything. All that matters is what superkeener thought when he dropped the vote. The timing doesn't matter, the other votes don't matter. You are all just murking up the case for no reason.

[Iron Butterfly]

Can you think of a role that would not reveal upon death? I have only played in games where outside forces have such an effect.

If as you suggest this is a blanket effect, the "twist", then that would give a decided advantage to mafia as Town would be completely blind. So we either have an imbalanced game, which I highly doubt or roles which would help circumnavigate this effect.

I find it more probable that we have a mafia role and that once discovered and killed the problem would be solved.

i guess we will find out tonight.

There could be a coroner or something. That would result in ??? deaths in some games.

http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/en/index.php/Coroner

You must be confusing the roles. With someone playing as long as yourself I find it odd you mentioned coroner instead of janitor. Could you remind us again which games you played in that had a coroner that hid bodies??

[aage]

Can you think of a role that would not reveal upon death? I have only played in games where outside forces have such an effect.

If as you suggest this is a blanket effect, the "twist", then that would give a decided advantage to mafia as Town would be completely blind. So we either have an imbalanced game, which I highly doubt or roles which would help circumnavigate this effect.

I find it more probable that we have a mafia role and that once discovered and killed the problem would be solved.

i guess we will find out tonight.

There could be a coroner or something. That would result in ??? deaths in some games.

http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/en/index.php/Coroner

You must be confusing the roles. With someone playing as long as yourself I find it odd you mentioned coroner instead of janitor. Could you remind us again which games you played in that had a coroner that hid bodies??

A coroner circumnavigates the problem, I think that's what Edocsil is saying. Here's what you're looking for:

http://wiki.epicmafia.com/index.php?title=Janitor

Haven't seen it pass by on this mafia forum, though. Read some more wiki's.
I'm very curious as to whether the mafia does know what Neb's role was:

the Janitor will conceal their role from the rest of the town.

[edocsil]

Yeah, you see the "clue variant" That means all deaths are hidden, and the coroner has to look at them to reveal the identity. Janitor is a night action typically, and that would impossible to be used to conceal a lynching.

[jonty125]

I don't think we have a coroner, just because I haven't seen it on CC before but I could be wrong.

If we did have a coroner, I can't see them claiming unless someone lied about their role, so that we don't lynch the counter-claim.

[aage]

If we do have a coroner, I think he's being a complete dick atm for leaving us in the dark. Since I don't think any of you are dicks, the ability is probably mafia-aligned.

[jonty125]

If we do have a coroner, I think he's being a complete dick atm for leaving us in the dark. Since I don't think any of you are dicks, the ability is probably mafia-aligned.

Would you really oust yourself over a VT claim though, assuming Neb is who he said he was?

[Iron Butterfly]

If we do have a coroner, I think he's being a complete dick atm for leaving us in the dark. Since I don't think any of you are dicks, the ability is probably mafia-aligned.

Did you even read your link about a janitor and my link on coroner? If a janitor is in game, which I suspect, then having a mafia coroner would be impossible. The roles are made to counteract each other.

If mafia do have a janitor it would be in their best interest to convince Town otherwise, which seems to be the case with yourself.

Your argument is highly suspect aage and down right scummy.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Either a) he was being serious about obliging neb. If this is the case, as I've explained, it means he is scum, since there is no reason for a town player to kill another townie if he knows that he is a VT.
or b)he is blindly BWing.

I am guessing a).
I already made the case yesterday... it seems nobody caught on.

With no investigative result there's no way to know that a player is a townie. Part a) is invalid. Merely because Neb stated that he would be willing to replace does not mean he was town, he could've been using that as a bluff for all you know.

And you're all over the place, dude.

-Tails