[Abandoned] - Classic Maya Era

[oaktown]

Background: This is the map I've been meaning to make for months, but I keep getting sidetracked with other projects. It will represent the Classic Maya period of Mesoamerica, from about 250 CE to 1000 CE, during which time the Mayan city states reached their peak and the Maya traded with the Zapotec and Teotihuacano civilizations.

Basics: The map currently has 42 territories, and I'd like to keep it at the 'classic' level. Rivers and mountain ranges will be unpassable borders, I've tried to use them to make the central bonus regions (Tikal and Palenque) easier to hold.

Tribute bonuses are collected by controlling a Great City (indicated by the pyramids) and two or more immediately adjoining cities. So yes, like Berlin this is another 'build your own bonus' map. Tribute cities will have a little guy on them, as the examples around Copan, and some cities will have nothing as they do not immediately border a Great City.

I have been toying with the idea of also including trade routes that collect bonuses, but we'll see how this flies to begin with.

Graphics: are slowly coming together. I'm going to try to keep it simple and subtle.

Feedback sought: I would primarily like feedback on the basic structure of the gameplay: does the tribute bonus system make sense, and do you think it will make for decent play?

[Kaplowitz]

the Alban route is...unfinished.

some of the routes are unclear? X-4 can obviously attack Tik-3, so is that there becasue X-5 can attakc all of those?

The names are pretty uncreative...are there any others that would be historically correct and better?

[Coleman]

More color would make me happy. Otherwise I don't have any complaints yet.

[mibi]

looks fun, although i wouldn't get too fancy with those trade routes/bonuses.

[Unit_2]

oak, Teotihuacan is a Aztec city.

[oaktown]

oak, Teotihuacan is a Aztec city.

No, it isn't. Tenochtitlan is an Aztec City. Teotihuacan was pre-Aztec. I've been to both. Twice.

[Unit_2]

what? though it WAS a Aztec city

[oaktown]

what? though it WAS a Aztec city

Did you mean "though" or "thought?" Because if you meant "though" you really need to fire your history teacher!

Teotihuacan was the largest city in the western hemisphere several hundred years before the rise of the Aztec civilization. The Teotihuacanos lived during the time of the Mayans (to the east) and the Zapotecs (to the south), and are thought to have been ultimately brought down by the Toltecs (to the north).

The Aztecs have no business on this map... this is the Classic Maya era, 250 - 1000 CE. The Aztecs weren't even on the scene yet.

[Unit_2]

"The name Teotihuacán was given by the Nahuatl-speaking Aztec centuries after the fall of the city. The term has been glossed as 'birthplace of the gods,' reflecting Nahua creation myths that took place in Teotihuacán. Another translation was offered by Thelma Sullivan, who interprets the name as "place of those who have the road of the gods."[citation needed]

The original name of the city is unknown, but it appears in hieroglyphic texts from the Maya region as 'puh', or "Place of Reeds".[citation needed] This suggests that the Maya understood Teotihuacán as a 'Place of Reeds' similar to other Central Mexican settlements that took the name 'Tollan,' such as Tula-Hidalgo and Cholula. This naming convention led to much confusion in the early 20th century as scholars debated whether Teotihuacán or Tula-Hidalgo was the Tollan described by 16th–century chronicles. It now seems clear that 'Tollan' may be understood as a generic term applied to any large settlement, rather like the modern expression "the Big Smoke". In the Mesoamerican concept of urbanism, Tollan and other language equivalents serve as a metaphor, linking the bundles of reeds and rushes that formed part of the lacustrine environment of the Valley of Mexico and the large gathering of people in a city.[2]" if you want the whole thing go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teotihuacan .

[Unit_2]

it wasn't under control of the maya(btw if you didn't know its pronouced "My-a"

[oaktown]

Please, just stop.

[pepperonibread]

"The name Teotihuacán was given by the Nahuatl-speaking Aztec centuries after the fall of the city. The term has been glossed as 'birthplace of the gods,' reflecting Nahua creation myths that took place in Teotihuacán. Another translation was offered by Thelma Sullivan, who interprets the name as "place of those who have the road of the gods."[citation needed]

The original name of the city is unknown, but it appears in hieroglyphic texts from the Maya region as 'puh', or "Place of Reeds".[citation needed] This suggests that the Maya understood Teotihuacán as a 'Place of Reeds' similar to other Central Mexican settlements that took the name 'Tollan,' such as Tula-Hidalgo and Cholula. This naming convention led to much confusion in the early 20th century as scholars debated whether Teotihuacán or Tula-Hidalgo was the Tollan described by 16th–century chronicles. It now seems clear that 'Tollan' may be understood as a generic term applied to any large settlement, rather like the modern expression "the Big Smoke". In the Mesoamerican concept of urbanism, Tollan and other language equivalents serve as a metaphor, linking the bundles of reeds and rushes that formed part of the lacustrine environment of the Valley of Mexico and the large gathering of people in a city.[2]" if you want the whole thing go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teotihuacan .

That just says that the name was given to the city by the Aztecs after its fall. Here's another quote:

People
There is archaeological evidence that Teotihuacán was a multi-ethnic city, with distinct Zapotec, Mixtec, Maya and what seem to be Nahua quarters. The Totonacs have always maintained that they were the ones who built it, a story that was corroborated later by the Aztecs.

[babinecz]

Teotihuacan WAS a contemporary city with the Maya and NOT the Aztec, so much so that King Pacal's (founder of Palenque) wife was from Teotihuacan. The only problem with the map is the Chichen Itza wasn't a contemporary city with Palenque and Tikal. It was a Late Classic, more so Post Classic city. Pretty much the entire Maya Lowland had collapsed by Chichen Itza's time (migrated north probably, but that's still up for debate). Chichen Itza didn't really emerge until the late 900s. I don't think it's a big deal though, cause people like Unit 2 really don't know what they are talking about. Also, I'm not 100 % sure on this, but wasn't the Zapotec city Monte Alban, not just Alban?

Another thing I think you should add is something with -1 army territories for Human sacrifice from a few of the tributary states. Also, since one guy said names were uncreative, you could work some God names in there. Not sure how, maybe a Bamboo Jack type thing with something like Tlaloc's Realm, Huitzipochtle (sp?) Realm, Kulkukan's Realm and you could link it with the Human Sacrifice areas. Specific states sacrifice to specific gods, and if a player owns both they get a bonus rather than lose armies. Might be a bit overbearing with that and the 2 bonus structures you already have (which I really like, good move on the Trade Routes), but I would like to see this map be as great as possible. If i knew anything about graphic design i would have done this, I even tried but got frustrated and quit. So...I would love to help to any degree that I can.

I apologize for the length, but I have been wanting a map like this for a while and gave that real excited rant. Also, I have a lot of ideas for an ancient Andean map. One at a time though, right.

[unriggable]

Just make it so castles can attack each other via trade routes.

[oaktown]

The only problem with the map is the Chichen Itza wasn't a contemporary city with Palenque and Tikal. It was a Late Classic, more so Post Classic city. Pretty much the entire Maya Lowland had collapsed by Chichen Itza's time (migrated north probably, but that's still up for debate). Chichen Itza didn't really emerge until the late 900s.

I know, I was hoping people wouldn't call me on it though. I made the time period 250 ce to 1000 ce to encompass the different stages of mayan development.

wasn't the Zapotec city Monte Alban, not just Alban?

Well, calling it Albán was my nod to the fact that "Monte Albán" is a Spanish name for the ruins which may have come from a zapotec name, now lost... I remember reading somewhere that it may have come from the Zapotec name for mountain, which means "Monte Alban" means "mountain mountain."

Isn't there a hill in England somewhere with a name that means Hill Hill Hill?

Also, since one guy said names were uncreative, you could work some God names in there.

Alright, just to put the name issue to rest, here's what I've plugged in - this is such an early draft I'm embarassed throwing it around. And I may throw out the idea of trade routes altogether - one tricky bonus situation may be enough for this map.

[Herakilla]

you should get a bonus for holding a castle and then an opposing castle's lands afterall they got tribute on the warpath

[oaktown]

Alright, putting up a lousy image doesn't inspire feedback. Any thoughts now?

Note that it is still in draft phase... I just wanted to get the basics on there: territories, rivers, mountains, major cities. I'll be adding some subtle color to link the tributary cities with the major cities, and those arrows have to go.

[babinecz]

looks great, nice call on the finding the zapotec name for Monte Alban, i didn't know that, i still say the trade route bonus is a cool idea still

[RjBeals]

Wow, that's a beautiful map already. The bonus structure seems okay also. I really love the look of the map, and I think a lot of other cc'ers will also. Will the major cities start neutral? Nice work oaktown.

[oaktown]

Will the major cities start neutral?

I thought about it, but if they did the map would have 36 starting territories, which is bad for gameplay in two and three player games because the first player can instantly knock down somebody else's first turn placement.

The major cities (for which I could use a better name) would only receive a bonus in conjunction with at least three surrounding cities, so my hope is that it would be hard to fluke a bonus to start. Maybe somebody who is more mathematically inclined can figure out what the odds would be of somebody starting with a bonus?

I'm also hoping an XML update goes through that allows continents to be elements within other continents, or else the XML for this will be a drag.

[mibi]

looks good, but I think the territory borders are too clean and smooth for such a jungle ridden area.

[RjBeals]

I thought about it, but if they did the map would have 36 starting territories, which is bad for gameplay in two and three player games because the first player can instantly knock down somebody else's first turn placement.

Uh oh... My dustbowl starts with 36 territories

[oaktown]

I thought about it, but if they did the map would have 36 starting territories, which is bad for gameplay in two and three player games because the first player can instantly knock down somebody else's first turn placement.

Uh oh... My dustbowl starts with 36 territories

that's alright, so do many other maps including my berlin. no sweat.

and yes, the borders will be redrawn - i made quick work of those, and they don't even line up correctly in most places.

[Coleman]

looks good, but I think the territory borders are too clean and smooth for such a jungle ridden area.

Agreed, at the very least the color is wrong.

[Kaplowitz]

Omg, the mts are beautiful!