D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

[Coleman]

have you noticed rail US and indocina jsut got quenched fairly quickly.

Portugal waiting 4 days without comment then KEYOGI decided to say something.

I think the main difference there is Widow Makers and cairns are very moldable. They have an initial vision, but will allow their maps to transform into almost anything.

People that are more resistant to straying from their vision. (mibi, myself, DiM, qwert) tend to face longer production periods filled with meaner language. I don't think there is anything wrong with this really. It's when they don't allow these discussions to take place and outright force change that I will become concerned.

[hulmey]

WM and cairns are the best map makers on CC without a doubt...They listen to the foundry and make the quick changes accordingly....

Its no wonder their maps are quenched quicker than others!!!

[Wisse]

WM and cairns are the best map makers on CC without a doubt...They listen to the foundry and make the quick changes accordingly....

Its no wonder their maps are quenched quicker than others!!!

they have great map making skills and they have the time for it, i don't have the time for it (i think )

[BeakerWMA]

WM and cairns are the best map makers on CC without a doubt...They listen to the foundry and make the quick changes accordingly....

Its no wonder their maps are quenched quicker than others!!!

So agree with the forge or suffer the consequences? I can see this if the majority is against something, but in this maps case it seems the majority back the map makers who have expressed their reasoning many times over in regards to the German bonuses. Should one or two Forge members be able to hold up a map because they disagree with majority as well as the map makers?

[Coleman]

Technically yes. Those two could actually represent 10 to 20% of the actual player base, which is significant. The redundancy does tend to wear down on you after a while though.

[DiM]

have you noticed rail US and indocina jsut got quenched fairly quickly.

Portugal waiting 4 days without comment then KEYOGI decided to say something.

I think the main difference there is Widow Makers and cairns are very moldable. They have an initial vision, but will allow their maps to transform into almost anything.

People that are more resistant to straying from their vision. (mibi, myself, DiM, qwert) tend to face longer production periods filled with meaner language. I don't think there is anything wrong with this really. It's when they don't allow these discussions to take place and outright force change that I will become concerned.

yes this is also my concern. somehow i feel the map makers are losing their power. while i agree any mapmaker should listen to the foundry i do think sometimes they should be allowed a veto right. i never felt comfortable with anything where the majority decides everything. the good part is that this makes it impossible for crappy maps to be quenched but it also makes the process tedious and sometimes makes brilliant maps die. most of the people can't tell a brilliant map from a crappy one and anything that strays too much from the classic pattern is quickly shot down.

[mibi]

have you noticed rail US and indocina jsut got quenched fairly quickly.

Portugal waiting 4 days without comment then KEYOGI decided to say something.

I think the main difference there is Widow Makers and cairns are very moldable. They have an initial vision, but will allow their maps to transform into almost anything.

People that are more resistant to straying from their vision. (mibi, myself, DiM, qwert) tend to face longer production periods filled with meaner language. I don't think there is anything wrong with this really. It's when they don't allow these discussions to take place and outright force change that I will become concerned.

yes this is also my concern. somehow i feel the map makers are losing their power. while i agree any mapmaker should listen to the foundry i do think sometimes they should be allowed a veto right. i never felt comfortable with anything where the majority decides everything. the good part is that this makes it impossible for crappy maps to be quenched but it also makes the process tedious and sometimes makes brilliant maps die. most of the people can't tell a brilliant map from a crappy one and anything that strays too much from the classic pattern is quickly shot down.

its quite unfortunate that CC values the map over the mapmaker. i wouldnt be surprised if CC experienced a 'creative flight'.

[Coleman]

Maybe it's time we had images and links then?

Large Map:
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3127/dday103xy8.jpg

Small Map:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7361/dday102stw7.jpg

XML:
http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/D-Day_05.xml

Don't want this getting lost.

[AndyDufresne]

its quite unfortunate that CC values the map over the mapmaker. i wouldnt be surprised if CC experienced a 'creative flight'.

I have no worries about any 'creative flight'. In the past, we've lost many cartographers, as they've moved on to other things in their life, but with every1 we lost, we gained at least 1 (and most often 2) back.


--Andy

[mibi]

its quite unfortunate that CC values the map over the mapmaker. i wouldnt be surprised if CC experienced a 'creative flight'.

I have no worries about any 'creative flight'. In the past, we've lost many cartographers, as they've moved on to other things in their life, but with every1 we lost, we gained at least 1 (and most often 2) back.


--Andy

good luck

[unriggable]

Mibi your poll is a bit....restricting.

"In what ways do YOU agree with me?"

[DiM]

its quite unfortunate that CC values the map over the mapmaker. i wouldnt be surprised if CC experienced a 'creative flight'.

I have no worries about any 'creative flight'. In the past, we've lost many cartographers, as they've moved on to other things in their life, but with every1 we lost, we gained at least 1 (and most often 2) back.


--Andy

there's a big flaw in your judgement Andy. it's one thing to lose a map maker because he has a life and it's a totally different thing to lose one because the foundry acts wrong.

it's better to minimize the losses because if map makers start leaving because of the foundry process pretty soon you'll have to show s your photoshop skills and start making maps yourself.

the current foundry is just like my grandpa. he moves slowly and thinks any change is a bad change. to get a map quenched in the current process you have 2 choices:
1. lose your personal touches and make the map exactly as the foundry wants it
2. be extremely stubborn and wait a few months while argueing at each step.

if i hadn't been a stubborn man AoM would have never been quenched. if i had listend to the foundry AoM would have never had the gameplay it has. it would have been just another map with some terits and continents.

why the foundry is so reluctant to changes is easy to understand because that's the human nature. but why are the people in charge (you lack keyogi) the same is beyond my comprehension. you should be the first to encourage progress you should try and convince people to make maps and help CC evolve. but not only that you don't do that you even slow it down even more and have an attitude like you do the map makers a favor for letting them spend hours and hours on creating something.

you guys probably have more negative posts than anybody else in the foundry (except spockers) and you say you get 2 map makers for every one that leaves? i doubt that. with this attitude you don't get map makers you get graphicians. it's a big difference. a graphician does what he's told a map makers brings a vision to life. with this attitude soon all the maps will look the same play the same feel the same. a boring routine.

i'm not trying to offend anybody here but since wm and cairnswk have been used as an example i'm gonna give you a test to do. take all wm's and cairnswk's maps and look at them you'll easily see the same style in each and everyone of them. in the indochina competition everybody knew which one of the maps was made by wm because all of them have the same style. now please take a look at AoM, Age of Realms, Life in prison. 3 maps made by me. do you see something different? yes everything. from gameplay concept to graphic style to programs used for development. nothing is the same. well actually one thing is the same in each and everyone of these 3 maps you'll see lots of pages of useless arguements about the gameplay the graphics the xml and all. anything that breaks the pattern is automatically deemed bad by the foundry.
and to top all this when i keep being stubborn and bring valid reasons keyogi tells me it's either his way or the highway and tells me it would be better if i left the foundry. really constructive.

i have suggested many ways to change things around. all of them turned down or even worse ignored.

don't worry i'll stick around and don't think i'll be leaving soon i'll still be the same pain in the ass you guys consider me to be. i love you too.

[AndyDufresne]

Everyone can have their opinions, no sense in cluttering up Mibi's thread.


--Andy

[DiM]

Everyone can have their opinions, no sense in cluttering up Mibi's thread.


--Andy

oh snap i was hoping for a better reply. you're no fun

[hulmey]

Ever the diplomat is Mr.Monkey. However on this occasion i think they have it spot. Mibi doesnt listen to the foundry and thats why he hasnt had more maps quenched. Ok, so he has opinons and he sticks by them and that i admire. But MANY people in the know have been asking for German bonus's (even a small one) and also to change the red numbers but he doesnt.

So even though i would love to play the map how it is, i believe it shouldnt be quenched!!!

And as for your gameplay DIM you are sometimes OTT and if AOM didnt get quenched i dont think many people would be effected. It hasnt been a high mover has it really!!! I played it twice and find it very tediuos and boring....

As for Wm and carins churning out the same maps!!!! Look at Pearl Harbour, Battle for Australia and Cairns...Totally different kinds of maps and gameplay!!!

[edbeard]

if AOM didnt get quenched i dont think many people would be effected. It hasnt been a high mover has it really!!! I played it twice and find it very tediuos and boring....

your opinion is not necessarily the same as everyone else's

[cairnswk]

I think the main difference there is Widow Makers and cairns are very moldable. They have an initial vision, but will allow their maps to transform into almost anything.

My good feathered Coleman How wrong you are?

How wrong you are about me being modable. What i do is listen to most things the forum says, but all of my maps have pretty well achieved the same concept that I started developing at the outset of each one. And if you ask anyone of these commenters in here including Andy and Keyogi and hulmey, you'll find they'll tell you that cairnswk is not as modable as you would be lead to beleive. I can be very stubborn at times Coleman. And as for my maps, dont' even compare them to others...the graphics are not necessarily as good as mibi's or wm's, but you find that everyone of my maps rests at the bottom of the gameplay chart because they dare to be different and offer alternatives/variations to standard gameplay. And that is why each of my maps is very different, even the difference between RAIL USA and RAIL Europe is noticeable and that will offer different variations of gameplay than what the US one does. I don't necessarily go in guns blazing with changes, that is not the way the world itself changes. But putting me in a mould with others is a big mistake and if you think i allow my maps to be moulded "into anything", you're very much mistaken good sir.

[mibi]

Everyone can have their opinions, no sense in cluttering up Mibi's thread.


--Andy

Andy, this is how we past the time in the long dreary months of the 'final forge'

[DiM]

Ever the diplomat is Mr.Monkey. However on this occasion i think they have it spot. Mibi doesnt listen to the foundry and thats why he hasnt had more maps quenched. Ok, so he has opinons and he sticks by them and that i admire. But MANY people in the know have been asking for German bonus's (even a small one) and also to change the red numbers but he doesnt.

So even though i would love to play the map how it is, i believe it shouldnt be quenched!!!

so you admire he sticks to his opinions and yet you don't care and want his opinions shot down. that sounds like a contradiction.

and here's another one. you want to play the map as it is now and yet you don't want it quenched.

make up your mind. do you admire mibi or do you simply not care what his opinions are? do you want to play the map or don't you?

you sound confused.

why can't the map maker have a veto right? why can't the map be quenched as it is to see if the map maker's vision is the right one? after all he thinks of the map and designs it. there's nobody that knows it better than him. why can't the map be quenched and if later on he's proven wrong he can modify it and add a bonus if people start complaining?

look at battle for australia. it had 18 neutral terits now they are gone. cairns wanted to simulate north vs south in that map by adding neutrals. people complained he thought about it and removed them. modifications can and will be done if something is wrong.

And as for your gameplay DIM you are sometimes OTT and if AOM didnt get quenched i dont think many people would be effected. It hasnt been a high mover has it really!!! I played it twice and find it very tediuos and boring....

i have no idea what OTT is
and simply because you played it twice and didn't like it doesn't mean it's crap. take a look at all the maps quenched in that same day as AOM. all of them have less active games and less total games. not only that but since it's quenching AoM has amassed more games than maps quenched a long time before it. and by the look of things it will continue to rise. i wouldn't actually say it was a useless piece of crap.

As for Wm and carins churning out the same maps!!!! Look at Pearl Harbour, Battle for Australia and Cairns...Totally different kinds of maps and gameplay!!!

yeah look at those maps.
can you honestly say they look totally different and play totally different?
if that is the case then by all means all the maps should be considered totally different, right? NO. most of the maps are the same classic-style map. same borders same bonus just a different country or zone. no out of the box thinking. i consider jota to be the best map maker around. why? because he had the courage to add spice to the game. look at his maps very different styles in the graphics, very different gameplays. he was the first to introduce things that others never thought possible. things like negative bonuses or countries that belong to 2 different continents.
i'm actually curious if how his maps got quenched. people seem so reluctant to change in the foundry that may be an exception. OH WAIT. the foundry wasn't functioning back in that day. what a coincidence!!!

so you say Pearl Harbor, Battle for Australia and Cairns Coral Coast are totally different.

then look at AoM, AoR Trilogy and Life in Prison. if those are totally different how are these?

let's see:
graphics:
AoM - monochrome old age map style - done in fireworks 8
AoR - colorful realistic enviroment style - done in Photoshop CS3
LiP - colorful realistic 3D style - done in Sketchup

gameplay:
AoM - resource and transportation based.
AoR - single terit starting point with lots of neutrals. simulation of expanding empire by taking space resources villages and trading. and most of all the trilogy aspect where the story and events that happen in each episode make an immersing gameplay.
LiP - introducing a second force besides the traditional armies. the respect. some terits bring respect and others bring money (armies) some areas are unlocked from the start and become available only when certain conditions (money and respect) are met.

theme:
AoM - stranded merchants in a remote archipelago fighting to rule the area
AoR - each player is a your monarch that wants to rule the realm. a fight that has all kinds of turns and twists in the 3 episode long story.
LiP - simulation of the life of an inmate. what he must do to survive and become the kingpin of the prison.

i'll let you do the comparison of the 3 maps you used as an example.

[hulmey]

I think you have a chip on your shoulder DIM. You are not high and mighty and must abide by the guidelines of the foundry as they are set.

I disagree with some of the stuff Andy and Keyogi have said in the past as most of you know but in this case my personal opinon is as i have said.

Concerning mibi, whats not to admire.!! He is great with graphics, his maps are different and the gameplay is not bad. He also stands by what he says which is a admirable quality but not neceasarily the correct one for every situation.

Although i would like to play the map how it is i would much prefer to play it with a small bonus for the german area!!

Now if andy and keyogi give in to mibi and the map is quenched as it is then every map maker should have the right to do so!!!!

[Incandenza]

Ever the diplomat is Mr.Monkey. However on this occasion i think they have it spot. Mibi doesnt listen to the foundry and thats why he hasnt had more maps quenched. Ok, so he has opinons and he sticks by them and that i admire. But MANY people in the know have been asking for German bonus's (even a small one) and also to change the red numbers but he doesnt.

And where exactly are these teeming masses demanding a german bonus? You seem unable to extricate yourself from parochial classic-map-style thinking when you demand that every last territory on the map be associated with a continent that brings a bonus.

A bonus for german territory would be meaningless. The top of the map already has a bunch of bonuses with the artillery and foxholes. More to the point, no one is going to capture a large continent with a bunch of borders to get a bonus of 2 or 3.

You, sir, are unnecessarily holding up an excellent map because of picayune concerns that are held by a tiny minority.

[hulmey]

im talking about a bonus for all 3 german division's not just a little this or a little that. And as for classic style i will have you know this map was orginally my idea and was stolen from me from Mibi (which im bloody happy about coz he is a great artist) so before you got sprouting stupid words about realsie that you dont know me or my ideas...

Ps..my favourite maps are siege and world war 2

[mibi]

Maybe it's time we had images and links then?

Large Map:
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3127/dday103xy8.jpg

Small Map:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7361/dday102stw7.jpg

XML:
http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/D-Day_05.xml

Don't want this getting lost.

[lt_oddball]

could you not make the DARKgreen of the german zones a bit brighter ?
I can't see the circles.

[mibi]

could you not make the DARKgreen of the german zones a bit brighter ?
I can't see the circles.

sure, i'll upload a brighter version in a few months.