D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

[KEYOGI]

[Official] How to Make a Map thread:

Developmental maps will be discussed in length in the various Foundry forums, in their respective topics. Cartographers must be open to any advice and suggestions. Be sure that if you do not implement said advice you must have logical reason for doing so. This rebuttal must be stated either by you, or argued by another Foundry poster who sees the drawbacks or shortcomings in said advice. There will be no rebuttals of ‘It’s my map, let me do it my way.’ Waiting for feedback on your map is the one of the most important parts of development.

So far the only discussion has involved you and mibi saying no, that's not a discussion.

In his SUPERMAX map, mibi even says:

what could possible be the benefit from holding a bunch of territories that don't have any bonus?

He's making two completely opposite statements on two maps that share a very similar gameplay situation... large, continent shaped areas without a bonus. It's more understandable in SUPERMAX, but I really don't understand why there is not at least a small bonus for the German areas of this map.

Directed gameplay is not an excuse or a decent answer. I'd really like to see some proper discussion on this issue as I see it as the main thing holding this map back.

[Coleman]

Okay, I'll sit around and wait for mibi to come post his list of reasons why we don't have a bonus for the german areas. I'm sure it won't satisfy you this time either. I don't feel like digging it up, or doing much of anything at this point. I don't even care if this map gets quenched or not anymore, I'm beyond burnt out on it. If an xml change absolutely has to happen mibi can let me know.

[BeakerWMA]

How about this for a reason: the Germans didn't have reserves near Normandy on D-Day thanks to one of the greatest psyche jobs in history leading them to believe the invasion would happen elsewhere (a dead British body was allowed to wash ashore with fake plans for an attack in another area). Hence the German areas shouldn't provide area bonuses as historically it is proper.

[KEYOGI]

I understand how you feel Coleman, but people really need to work with the foundry to get maps through rather than fight it.

I'm really uncomfortable with the map how it is at the moment and I think something should be done, a small bonus is one option. There are clearly defined continent borders there, it makes sense for them to have a bonus. Maybe it could all be made one big area since there's no reason for it to be divided up into three areas. Perhaps the number of territories up there could be reduced?

I know you've played a few test games on the map, but I really think the gameplay on this map is broken. If I'm proven to be wrong through discussion that's all well and good, but I'd really like to encourage people to give the map a good lookover and actually comment on the gameplay.

[mibi]

I understand how you feel Coleman, but people really need to work with the foundry to get maps through rather than fight it.

I'm really uncomfortable with the map how it is at the moment and I think something should be done, a small bonus is one option. There are clearly defined continent borders there, it makes sense for them to have a bonus. Maybe it could all be made one big area since there's no reason for it to be divided up into three areas. Perhaps the number of territories up there could be reduced?

I know you've played a few test games on the map, but I really think the gameplay on this map is broken. If I'm proven to be wrong through discussion that's all well and good, but I'd really like to encourage people to give the map a good lookover and actually comment on the gameplay.

the bonuses have already been dicussed, including the german bonuses.

the reason why the german territories will not have bonuses is this

1. the bonuses would have to be small or the balance or the whole map would be unbalanced, and ofcourse people would complain about a 10 territory continent with a small bonus

2. the germans at d-day weren't heavily fortified and were really there to repel the allies. this keeps with the theme of the map as its the allies who need to attempt to capture and hold large swaths of territories. it also leaves the beach head as the premium battle ground since the german areas have no bonus, and the fighting was done one the beach so this also fits with the theme.

3. giving the german bonuses is just superflous and its only reason would be to appease some out dated notion that a continent must have a bonus simply because its a continent, yet how many complains about antarctica do we hear from world 2.0.... none.

4. unnecessary bonuses would also add unnecessary clutter to the legend.

5. this map has successfully been play tested so before you start calling the game play broken please back that up something other than your general discomfort

if those reasons dont satisfy you then i could care less, tag it as abandon, like coleman id rather burnt out on this 'foundry process' bullshit.

[DiM]

the bonuses have already been dicussed, including the german bonuses.

the reason why the german territories will not have bonuses is this

1. the bonuses would have to be small or the balance or the whole map would be unbalanced, and ofcourse people would complain about a 10 territory continent with a small bonus

a small bonus is better than no bonus


2. the germans at d-day weren't heavily fortified and were really there to repel the allies. this keeps with the theme of the map as its the allies who need to attempt to capture and hold large swaths of territories. it also leaves the beach head as the premium battle ground since the german areas have no bonus, and the fighting was done one the beach so this also fits with the theme.

sometimes realism is sacrificed for a better gameplay. as for directing the gameplay thing i really don't buy that.

3. giving the german bonuses is just superflous and its only reason would be to appease some out dated notion that a continent must have a bonus simply because its a continent, yet how many complains about antarctica do we hear from world 2.0.... none.

you'd be surprised to see how many people have asked for a bonus for antarctica

4. unnecessary bonuses would also add unnecessary clutter to the legend.

this could indeed be a problem but it could be sorted by lowering the font size

5. this map has successfully been play tested so before you start calling the game play broken please back that up something other than your general discomfort.

it has been play tested in only a few games. i sure coleman and his friends haven't played thousands of games on it. and while i agree the current gameplay is ok i do think it can be further improved

if those reasons dont satisfy you then i could care less, tag it as abandon, like coleman id rather burnt out on this 'foundry process' bullshit.

i understand your frustration mibi i have had thoughts like these several times i've had countless discussions and posts on various themes. just look through each and every map thread i made. basically imagine this the map foundry is an old teacher that sometimes can drive you nuts with small things that you as a pupil think are unnecessary. but if you are patient and listen carefully at the end you'll see valuable things are learned. i've had difficulties in all my threads, be it a strange gameplay (AoM) a strange theme (Bill of Rights) a new graphic engine (life in prison 3D) or simple size problems (Age of Realms and World 3.0) and in some cases i simply decided to put the map on hold until better times will come or in some cases i decided to listen to the foundry and apply the changes. but i never abandoned a map. it would be a shame if you did this.

[Coleman]

I guess we have to consider it on hold. It's hard to have a valid argument as a creator because the perceptive is that since we are the creator we are going to defend our creation with extreme bias. I don't even really try anymore because the feeling on my end is anything I say is irrelevant. Our willingness to compromise on the German territories isn't very high.

If we have any fans willing to argue our points further I'd strongly welcome it. Otherwise this isn't probably going anywhere. Enough people stop by saying they like the map that we must be doing something right. But if it isn't good enough for the few naysayers (and there have been few) I guess we can't proceed.

Could you argue why it is necessarily the German lands have a bonus? We've argued the other way. You can't keep saying "That isn't good enough." and expect more reasoning from us. We apparently can't do that to you. Convince us that the German territories absolutely must have a bonus, if you will.

[DiM]

Could you argue why it is necessarily the German lands have a bonus? We've argued the other way. You can't keep saying "That isn't good enough." and expect more reasoning from us. We apparently can't do that to you. Convince us that the German territories absolutely must have a bonus, if you will.

actually i could bring arguments in favor of a german bonus but to be honest if i were you i'd stick to my plan of not including the bonus. i think the foundry process as it is now drastically limits the cartographer's liberty.

in lux delux maps are generally crappy but the most important thing is that the map makers have total freedom in what they do both graphics and gameplay. while i agree CC has made a clear standard of producing top notch maps somehow i feel this limits the extremes. this leads to less or crappy maps but it also somehow makes the chances of brilliant maps be very slim.

i'd personally like full freedom in the map making process. the players are like a market where only the best survive. if each map would have a rating and they would be automatically sorted by rating i think there wouldn't be a problem if some crappy maps were produced. they would just fall at the bottom and be forgotten or even removed if they had a poor rating.

it's 6:11 am and i've been awake for almost 24 hours so feel free to ignore my ranting.

[BeakerWMA]

I would think CC would be open to new ideas for maps. The map looks great, has an outstanding premise and tries to be historically accurate. So what if one group of territories don't award a bonus, I think it would add new strategies to the game play of the map, much like Age of Merchants did.

But that's just me.

[asl80]

howdy, i've been watching this discusion give forward movement a half arsed go for about a month or so now in anticipation of an approval.
Firstly, the map looks really good.
Second; of course people might think it a bit of a cop out to hold the plains without bonuses, but not as the design of the map suggests, when you can take the well defended turrets and artillery.
If it is being contented that these are not desireable enough, i could suggest that maybe restricting (at say one or two spots) access from the beach to the plains, would surely provide that final bit of justification for taking the plains in conjunction with the turrets.
(also - if it's realism you are interested in preserving, surely the guys on the beach had a preety shit time getting off it - this could be an attempt at replicating that)
With this the plains defenders will be laughing - sitting back bombing the beach??. I think the imperitives fit.

P.S. Haven't checked the maps for a few days, so i could be a little misguided.

But, the point of the message in general: I reakon it'll work in any case, and hey, can't you fix it up in a couple of months if its really not working?
(P.P.S Is there any way for a noob freeloader like me to see map ratings/i.e. use/popularity?)

[Geoster]

I am a big fan of this map and I want to lend my support to mibi and coleman.

I see no way that this "bonus issue" adversely affects gameplay, to the contrary, I believe it serves to enhance the map's uniqueness. Isn't that supposed to be the point of making all these maps? To provide widely varying experiences of the game? Why are we trying to eliminate maps' personality?

This nitpicking seems particularly egregious given the fact that the map has actually been playtested. What higher authority could anyone else be pretending to speak from?

G

[benjikat]

I have been lurking on this thread since near the start of my time on CC, and it is now time for me to pipe up.

I personally do not understand the obsession with the calculation based bonus systems - I really think that having the occassional map that does something differently is needed on CC. For this reason AoM is by far my favourite map (with certain settings) because it requires different strategies to be employed - I'm here at CC to engage my grey matter, so anything that shakes that up is great in my book. I do not want to just be continually playing games in a robotic fashion.

The German "bonuses" as far as I can see do have a small bonus attached already - there are 18 territories and as a group they give 1 per 3 - so if you hold any one you get a bonus of 2 or 3 extra from the territories.

mibi - what are your current thoughts about making the range attacks bombardments instead of attacks?

Without an online testing function, it will be very hard for any out-of-the-box ideas to be quenched, which is a pity.

I would love to play this map just as it is, although I preferred the version where the beaches had the same bonus. If it turns out to be broken (except for hoping I realise first ), but I doubt it is, then I will petition for it to get amended.

I really think that the quote mibi has in his sig says it all:

KEYOGI wrote:
Nobody is forcing you to play a map you don't like.

As an aside, I'm sure it must have been suggested to categorise and/or rate maps so that players are less likely to play "wacky" maps accidently.

Also threads like this have put me off trying to make the map ideas I have - I just don't have the time, patience or resilience that DiM has.

There we go - I have come out of my shell - just hope it makes a difference.

[AndyDufresne]

In regards to bonus or no bonus, I can see the arguments for both sides, but I don't necessarily think having a 'no-mans land' (I.E. territories without a bonus) is a bad thing.

If you take for instance, World 2.1 has it's Antarctic region without a bonus...though the idea behind it not having one was because the territories there were more of a 'bridge' to other continents.

And when the Arctic map was being created, there was a lot of discussion about whether the polar region needed a bonus. Again this area also kind of served as a bridge, but it was decided that the centrality of the Ice Cap made a bonus applicable.

And in the Chinese Checkers map, there are numerous territories that don't belong to a bonus. Again though these could be considered bridge or central territories.

Now for the German Divisions, they aren't really bridge territories, nor are they central. But I think we must consider that the option of leaving territories bonusless is much like the option of creating bonus continents. I think if we create bonus areas, that seems to justify the ability to create non-bonus areas, like that of the German Divisions...if the area is balanced gameplay wise.

The Beachside (From the walls to the ships) has more bonus options than the Greenside (From the walls up). But due to the Greenside's ability to ability to move more easily (via trench routes and bombarding the beach), I think this counter balances the slight lack of bonuses.

So in conclusion, I think it is balanced, at least from an 'eye' point of view of looking.


--Andy

[Qwert]

If bonus have been discused,so why we go back and prolonge the end of these map?

[cairnswk]

Mibi and Coleman, i've just had a long read on this bonus discussion.

I am in agreement that the map does not need the germans to have a bonus if there are sufficient balances in gameplay methodolgy.

I know this map has been around in Forge for a long time (not withstanding my post re the numbers size), and I think it is about time we had it "quenched" for the players to judge.

If there is a serious outcry from the players concerning the bonuses during the first rounds of play, then perhaps something needs to be done later.

If everything else is finished, to appease your frustrations and reward your great efforts....i support you and say

QUENCH QUENCH QUENCH....QUENCH NOW

[BeakerWMA]

Mibi and Coleman, i've just had a long read on this bonus discussion.

I am in agreement that the map does not need the germans to have a bonus if there are sufficient balances in gameplay methodolgy.

I know this map has been around in Forge for a long time (not withstanding my post re the numbers size), and I think it is about time we had it "quenched" for the players to judge.

If there is a serious outcry from the players concerning the bonuses during the first rounds of play, then perhaps something needs to be done later.

If everything else is finished, to appease your frustrations and reward your great efforts....i support you and say

QUENCH QUENCH QUENCH....QUENCH NOW

word.

[KEYOGI]

Well, it seems the majority are happy with the gameplay how it is, so I'm willing to admit defeat.

I still question the relevance of the German divisions. However, I'm sure everyone will just tell me to shut up and quench the map anyway.

[AndyDufresne]

If I recall correctly, the reason why there are german divisions, is Two-Fold:
1. So the numbers of 'non-bonus territories' don't go up into high digits (making the territories easier to find)
2. Adds a little more realism to the map.


--Andy

[KEYOGI]

Maybe it's time we had images and links then?

[hulmey]

Many people have been for the german area to have a bonus...I asked for a bonus 3 months ago fo this region and many people have asked for a bonus since then. Mibi and coleman are refusing to add a bonus for their own reasons as listed. So to settle this why not add a simple poll and setle it that why?

[mibi]

Maybe it's time we had images and links then?

Large Map:
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3127/dday103xy8.jpg

Small Map:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7361/dday102stw7.jpg

XML:
http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/D-Day_05.xml

[DiM]

lol i love the poll but you forgot some options:

NO. Because we'll wait another 2 months before it is quenched.

GFY

[gimil]

lol i love the poll but you forgot some options:

NO. Because we'll wait another 2 months before it is quenched.

GFY

have you noticed rail US and indocina jsut got quenched fairly quickly.

Portugal waiting 4 days without comment then KEYOGI decided to say something.

[benjikat]

How can I vote for all four?

[AndyBounce]

Well, it seems the majority are happy with the gameplay how it is, so I'm willing to admit defeat.

I still question the relevance of the German divisions. However, I'm sure everyone will just tell me to shut up and quench the map anyway.

Agreed Guys have done a fantastic job in spite of the constant nitpicking, quench already