The 2024 Elections in the US, mostly Harris vs. Trump

[Votanic]

The SCOTUS seems to have given Democrats the political issue (abortion) needed to overcome many other issues in the 2023 elections.

Trump Party lost big last night in Ohio, Virginia and Kentucky.

Guess you can throw Saxitoxin approved polls in the trash bins.

Ha, and I bet some of those same libs are also shrieking about the decapitated babies in Pal-rael.
What part of pro-choice* don't you understand?

*Frankly, it's a Libertarian stance.

Not really.

When I was a Libertarian we did polls on the subject. Libertarians split 60/40 on the issue the same as the general public.

No, the concept of personal choice in the matter is essentially Libertarian, even if some self-defined libertarians, dont actually follow Libertarianism in all aspects of their lives.

Complete Libertarianism approaches the concept of anarchy (or more precisely autoarchy).

Therefore, most Libertarians in the real world are only issue-specific. with regard to the elimination of laws or social controls... and a corollary of that, is that virtually everyone is an issue-specific Libertarian on occasion, whether they admit or not.

As far as abortion goes, some societies find laws governing reproductive options and the termination of viable human beings as useful social controls, while other societies consider personal liberty to be the greater good.

[Dukasaur]

The SCOTUS seems to have given Democrats the political issue (abortion) needed to overcome many other issues in the 2023 elections.

Trump Party lost big last night in Ohio, Virginia and Kentucky.

Guess you can throw Saxitoxin approved polls in the trash bins.

Ha, and I bet some of those same libs are also shrieking about the decapitated babies in Pal-rael.
What part of pro-choice* don't you understand?

*Frankly, it's a Libertarian stance.

Not really.

When I was a Libertarian we did polls on the subject. Libertarians split 60/40 on the issue the same as the general public.

No, the concept of personal choice in the matter is essentially Libertarian, even if some self-defined libertarians, dont actually follow Libertarianism in all aspects of their lives.

Complete Libertarianism approaches the concept of anarchy (or more precisely autoarchy).

Therefore, most Libertarians in the real world are only issue-specific. with regard to the elimination of laws or social controls... and a corollary of that, is that virtually everyone is an issue-specific Libertarian on occasion, whether they admit or not.

As far as abortion goes, some societies find laws governing reproductive options and the termination of viable human beings as useful social controls, while other societies consider personal liberty to be the greater good.

The thing is, both sides of the argument can be argued from a Libertarian point of view.

Yes, if you believe the mother's autonomy is the only factor here, then her right to self government trumps all other concerns.

But if you believe a fetus is a person, then the principle of non-initiation of force dictates that you cannot aggress against that person.

Both positions can be consistently argued from a Libertarian point of view, and have been.

[Votanic]

Yes, but the fetus as a Libertarian self-governing entity is an ad absurdum stretch. It is too tiny, too dependent on the mother. It's role is akin to being the beneficiary of a welfare state.
And thus, if the mother doesn't value the little mooch and the mother is the only governmental control, well then... "So long, you little womb-parasite!"

Basically, every woman getting an abortion is a more sexually adventuresome form of Ayn Rand... Atlasietta Shrugged, anyone?

[jusplay4fun]

At a quick glance, it appears that abortion is THE issue for current elections. It will be interesting going forward if other issues become more important to most voters.

[GaryDenton]

Basically, every woman getting an abortion is a more sexually adventuresome form of Ayn Rand... Atlasietta Shrugged, anyone?

Ayn Rand was sexually adventurous and had a fixation on a wanton child murderer when young.
Other than that she is a stone-cold bitch.

http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/romancing-the-stone-cold.html

Although she was married, she had many love affairs, but particularly with a much younger Nathaniel Branden.

Wanting to connect with her, he began writing her fan letters to catch her attention. She snubbed him at first, but when she finally responded, they took off. At 49, she took the married 25-year-old as her lover, as she often did with men she fancied despite being married. They worked together until she found out he also had a girlfriend younger than himself and his wife. She became enraged and had a public breakup.

Her philosophies of greed and indulgence led to her followers having colorful private lives. Her novels are known for using rape as their sex scenes but followers argue it isn't really rape because she really wanted it. Just another way she warped her young devotees and those who became Libertarians.

...

[Dukasaur]

Basically, every woman getting an abortion is a more sexually adventuresome form of Ayn Rand... Atlasietta Shrugged, anyone?

Ayn Rand was sexually adventurous and had a fixation on a wanton child murderer when young.
Other than that she is a stone-cold bitch.

http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/romancing-the-stone-cold.html

Although she was married, she had many love affairs, but particularly with a much younger Nathaniel Branden.

Wanting to connect with her, he began writing her fan letters to catch her attention. She snubbed him at first, but when she finally responded, they took off. At 49, she took the married 25-year-old as her lover, as she often did with men she fancied despite being married. They worked together until she found out he also had a girlfriend younger than himself and his wife. She became enraged and had a public breakup.

Her philosophies of greed and indulgence led to her followers having colorful private lives. Her novels are known for using rape as their sex scenes but followers argue it isn't really rape because she really wanted it. Just another way she warped her young devotees and those who became Libertarians.

...

All, true, but doesn't change the fact that she was a magnificent writer.

[Votanic]

Basically, every woman getting an abortion is a more sexually adventuresome form of Ayn Rand... Atlasietta Shrugged, anyone?

Ayn Rand was sexually adventurous and had a fixation on a wanton child murderer when young.
Other than that she is a stone-cold bitch.

http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/romancing-the-stone-cold.html

Although she was married, she had many love affairs, but particularly with a much younger Nathaniel Branden.

Wanting to connect with her, he began writing her fan letters to catch her attention. She snubbed him at first, but when she finally responded, they took off. At 49, she took the married 25-year-old as her lover, as she often did with men she fancied despite being married. They worked together until she found out he also had a girlfriend younger than himself and his wife. She became enraged and had a public breakup.

Her philosophies of greed and indulgence led to her followers having colorful private lives. Her novels are known for using rape as their sex scenes but followers argue it isn't really rape because she really wanted it. Just another way she warped her young devotees and those who became Libertarians.

...

All, true, but doesn't change the fact that she was a magnificent writer.

True? Fact? More like a lot of opinion about her writing, warping, and adventuring.
Please, I'm not arguing with any verified names, dates, or acts of coitus. Such 'solids' are what hack-rate biographers and historians excel best with.

This is a true story: No sooner had I typed out my little Ayn Rand quip, than it occurred to me that it might cause the thread to segue into a discussion about Ayn Rand doing the wild thing. I paused, with a chagrined expression on my face, and considered deleting the line... but ultimately left it in, and thus a future foreseen has indeed come to pass.

Anyway... Gary, you seem vehemently anti-Libertarian, I presume we can count on you to vote a Pro-Life ticket in the coming election.
Society's suicidal indulgence of over-coddled individualism must be reined in.

[Dukasaur]

Basically, every woman getting an abortion is a more sexually adventuresome form of Ayn Rand... Atlasietta Shrugged, anyone?

Ayn Rand was sexually adventurous and had a fixation on a wanton child murderer when young.
Other than that she is a stone-cold bitch.

http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/romancing-the-stone-cold.html

Although she was married, she had many love affairs, but particularly with a much younger Nathaniel Branden.

Wanting to connect with her, he began writing her fan letters to catch her attention. She snubbed him at first, but when she finally responded, they took off. At 49, she took the married 25-year-old as her lover, as she often did with men she fancied despite being married. They worked together until she found out he also had a girlfriend younger than himself and his wife. She became enraged and had a public breakup.

Her philosophies of greed and indulgence led to her followers having colorful private lives. Her novels are known for using rape as their sex scenes but followers argue it isn't really rape because she really wanted it. Just another way she warped her young devotees and those who became Libertarians.

...

All, true, but doesn't change the fact that she was a magnificent writer.

True? Fact? More like a lot of opinion about her writing, warping, and adventuring.
Please, I'm not arguing with any verified names, dates, or acts of coitus. Such 'solids' are what hack-rate biographers and historians excel best with.

Most of it is documented in Barbara Branden's book, The Passion of Ayn Rand.

Opinions about the book are varied, but even those who hate it do not deny its veracity, since the materials are backed up by Ayn's own published letters.

I've been to a lecture where Barbara talked about the book. I've also known people who knew Ayn personally. I can say that the authenticity of the stories passes my 95% confidence level.

[jusplay4fun]

Basically, every woman getting an abortion is a more sexually adventuresome form of Ayn Rand... Atlasietta Shrugged, anyone?

Ayn Rand was sexually adventurous and had a fixation on a wanton child murderer when young.
Other than that she is a stone-cold bitch.

http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/romancing-the-stone-cold.html

Although she was married, she had many love affairs, but particularly with a much younger Nathaniel Branden.

Wanting to connect with her, he began writing her fan letters to catch her attention. She snubbed him at first, but when she finally responded, they took off. At 49, she took the married 25-year-old as her lover, as she often did with men she fancied despite being married. They worked together until she found out he also had a girlfriend younger than himself and his wife. She became enraged and had a public breakup.

Her philosophies of greed and indulgence led to her followers having colorful private lives. Her novels are known for using rape as their sex scenes but followers argue it isn't really rape because she really wanted it. Just another way she warped her young devotees and those who became Libertarians.

...

All, true, but doesn't change the fact that she was a magnificent writer.

True? Fact? More like a lot of opinion about her writing, warping, and adventuring.
Please, I'm not arguing with any verified names, dates, or acts of coitus. Such 'solids' are what hack-rate biographers and historians excel best with.

Most of it is documented in Barbara Branden's book, The Passion of Ayn Rand.

Opinions about the book are varied, but even those who hate it do not deny its veracity, since the materials are backed up by Ayn's own published letters.

I've been to a lecture where Barbara talked about the book. I've also known people who knew Ayn personally. I can say that the authenticity of the stories passes my 95% confidence level.

vot continues to show lack of insight and that he does not comprehend the facts. He certainly has a poor grasp of the "Big Picture" on several issues, and this Ayn Rand discussion being another such illustration of his shortcoming.

Here are a few facts about Ayn Rand:

Alice O'Connor (born Alisa Zinovyevna Rosenbaum;[c] February 2 [O.S. January 20], 1905 – March 6, 1982), better known by her pen name Ayn Rand (/aɪn/), was a Russian-born American writer and public philosopher.[3] She is known for her fiction and for developing a philosophical system she named Objectivism. Born and educated in Russia, Rand moved to the United States in 1926. After two early novels that were initially unsuccessful and two Broadway plays, she achieved fame with her 1943 novel, The Fountainhead. In 1957, Rand published her best-selling work, the novel Atlas Shrugged. Afterward, until her death in 1982, she turned to non-fiction to promote her philosophy, publishing her own periodicals and releasing several collections of essays.

Rand advocated reason and rejected faith and religion. She supported rational and ethical egoism as opposed to altruism. In politics, Rand condemned the initiation of force as immoral and supported laissez-faire capitalism, which she defined as the system based on recognizing individual rights, including private property rights. Although she opposed libertarianism, which she viewed as anarchism, she is often associated with the modern libertarian movement in the United States. In art, Rand promoted romantic realism. She was sharply critical of most philosophers and philosophical traditions known to her, with a few exceptions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand

[Votanic]

Wow, an in-depth exploration of the orgasmic Ayn Rand 'out-Trumps' the 2024 election...

Duk read a book about her sex life and even went to a lecture about it... That is a surprising number of hours to devote to such a topic... I've seen photos of her...
But then again, 'Not Hot' is it's own fetish. Now I'm scared/curious to do a web seach for 'ayn rand porn'...

and jus' was even inspired to 'cut and paste' Wikipedia and then give the link to what he just 'cut and pasted...
A valuable contribution, jus', keep it up! (Shoot, I just wasted good sarcasm on an automaton).

I did like the part about Rand being opposed to Libertarianism. Most Libertarians are going to be opposed to other styles of Libertarianism ...that's basically what Libertarianism is all about.
(Ayn called her style, 'Objectivism'. Branding pays off!)
Basically, Ayn (and any other Libertarian) liked the laws she liked and didn't like the rest.
Indeed, isn't that just a synonym for 'human being' really.

Okay, enough about Ayn Rand, ...please.

If you want to terminate a fetus you aren't going to like laws that stop you from doing that.
If you don't want fetuses being terminated you aren't going to like laws that allow others to do so.

Can you juryrig a Libertarian argument for either side? Of course you can (...and probably will).
But the Pro-choice fits into the Libertarian mold much more easily. It's all in the name isn't it: Pro-choice.

[Dukasaur]

vot continues to show lack of insight and that he does not comprehend the facts.

If your only contribution to the debate is an ad hominem, why bother wading into the debate at all?

Okay, enough about Ayn Rand, ...please.

If you want to terminate a fetus you aren't going to like laws that stop you from doing that.
If you don't want fetuses being terminated you aren't going to like laws that allow others to do so.

Can you juryrig a Libertarian argument for either side? Of course you can (...and probably will).
But the Pro-choice fits into the Libertarian mold much more easily. It's all in the name isn't it: Pro-choice.

You seem to want to bring everything back to an abortion debate. Would you like to start a thread about abortion?

[Votanic]

vot continues to show lack of insight and that he does not comprehend the facts.

If your only contribution to the debate is an ad hominem, why bother wading into the debate at all?

Okay, enough about Ayn Rand, ...please.

If you want to terminate a fetus you aren't going to like laws that stop you from doing that.
If you don't want fetuses being terminated you aren't going to like laws that allow others to do so.

Can you juryrig a Libertarian argument for either side? Of course you can (...and probably will).
But the Pro-choice fits into the Libertarian mold much more easily. It's all in the name isn't it: Pro-choice.

You seem to want to bring everything back to an abortion debate. Would you like to start a thread about abortion?

Uh... nah.
I just thought I was helping bring the thread back to a supposedly important campaign issue in the 2024 elections.

Please do go on about Rand's libido.
Has anyone calculated her ratio of climaxes per sex partner?

[Dukasaur]

I suppose to you Americans, the 2024 election is "supposedly important."

And I guess I can see how abortion thoughts are supposed to be crucial to it.

Okay, so here's a thought I had while listening to the election results on NPR the other day:
Democrats are congratulating themselves on how the religious nutcases in the Republican party have given them abortion as the "gift that keeps on giving" and will continue to motivate women to vote Democrat into the next election. I think, however, that some gifts can be opened but once. For instance, in Ohio. The danger of losing the rights to abortion was a powerful motivator this time. But it succeeded, the constitutional amendment was passed, the danger is over. Abortion rights in Ohio will continue to be argued over, and the small details of legislation will continue to be a battleground, but for most people the danger has passed. It won't be a powerful motivator next time.

[GaryDenton]

Except they are crazy religious fanatics convinced seeds are babies from the moment of conception.

It is the gift that keeps on giving to Democrats because they reveal themselves not bound by law or common sense to protect those babies. And women and not religious fanatics see it and get motivated again.

Example - Ohio. The seventh time pro-life has lost on abortion but the pro-life answer, ignore the voters.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/11/ohio-republicans-move-to-exclude-judges-interpreting-abortion-rights-law

Four Ohio Republican state lawmakers are seeking to strip judges of their power to interpret an abortion rights amendment after voters opted to enshrine those rights in the state’s constitution this week.

Republican state house representatives Jennifer Gross, Bill Dean, Melanie Miller and Beth Lear said in a news release on Thursday that they will push to have Ohio’s legislature – not the courts – make any decisions about the amendment passed on Tuesday.

“The legislature has multiple paths that we will explore to continue to protect innocent life. This is not the end of the conversation,” Stephens previously said in a news release.

If the amendment or any other abortion restrictions were to end up being challenged in the courts, it’s unclear how they would fare. The state supreme court has a conservative majority and has the final say over state constitutional issues.

This is, of course, unconstitutional but also reveals to voters that Republicans, even after being defeated, will reject the will of the voters and so the Republican Party must be soundly rejected again because they are just nuts.

[mookiemcgee]

I suppose to you Americans, the 2024 election is "supposedly important."

And I guess I can see how abortion thoughts are supposed to be crucial to it.

Okay, so here's a thought I had while listening to the election results on NPR the other day:
Democrats are congratulating themselves on how the religious nutcases in the Republican party have given them abortion as the "gift that keeps on giving" and will continue to motivate women to vote Democrat into the next election. I think, however, that some gifts can be opened but once. For instance, in Ohio. The danger of losing the rights to abortion was a powerful motivator this time. But it succeeded, the constitutional amendment was passed, the danger is over. Abortion rights in Ohio will continue to be argued over, and the small details of legislation will continue to be a battleground, but for most people the danger has passed. It won't be a powerful motivator next time.

You are correct, but I think you have to view it at a national scale. There aren't a ton of similar attempts to change state constitutions though direct voting other than Ohio that I can think of in other states to write in a womens right to choose. There is also a huge wave in other states of attempts to pass more restrictions. Another factor is while women in Ohio might feel safer, across the broader country women know the real power is at the Supreme court level, and those positions are nominated by presidents which could push other swing states towards voting democratic.

[Votanic]

If the amendment or any other abortion restrictions were to end up being challenged in the courts, it’s unclear how they would fare. The state supreme court has a conservative majority and has the final say over state constitutional issues.

This is, of course, unconstitutional but also reveals to voters that Republicans, even after being defeated, will reject the will of the voters and so the Republican Party must be soundly rejected again because they are just nuts.

Methinks, this beige elf is one of those people that says 'unconstitutional' when they mean 'I don't like it'.

Across the spectrum*, Everybody loves democracy when they win ... and when the lose they just stop calling it democracy.

* Not that spectrum... well okay, I guess that one too.

[jusplay4fun]

At a quick glance, it appears that abortion is THE issue for current elections. It will be interesting going forward if other issues become more important to most voters.

Yes, I posted this to return the discussion to important national issues that actually impact elections.

[Votanic]

At a quick glance, it appears that abortion is THE issue for current elections. It will be interesting going forward if other issues become more important to most voters.

Yes, I posted this to return the discussion to important national issues that actually impact elections.

Since the post immediately before yours concerned the same issue (abortion), I must assume that you only posted because you wanted to push buttons.

Please note, I wasn't being in any way metaphorical there. In your case, I just meant that you literally wanted to push buttons on your keyboard.

[jusplay4fun]

At a quick glance, it appears that abortion is THE issue for current elections. It will be interesting going forward if other issues become more important to most voters.

Yes, I posted this to return the discussion to important national issues that actually impact elections.

Since the post immediately before yours concerned the same issue (abortion), I must assume that you only posted because you wanted to push buttons.

Please note, I wasn't being in any way metaphorical there. In your case, I just meant that you literally wanted to push buttons on your keyboard.

It seems you missed my earlier post on the same topic, the day after the elections on Nov 8:

Re: The 2024 Elections in the US, mostly for the POTUS
Postby jusplay4fun on Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:47 am

The SCOTUS seems to have given Democrats the political issue (abortion) needed to overcome many other issues in the 2023 elections.

[Votanic]

At a quick glance, it appears that abortion is THE issue for current elections. It will be interesting going forward if other issues become more important to most voters.

Yes, I posted this to return the discussion to important national issues that actually impact elections.

Since the post immediately before yours concerned the same issue (abortion), I must assume that you only posted because you wanted to push buttons.

Please note, I wasn't being in any way metaphorical there. In your case, I just meant that you literally wanted to push buttons on your keyboard.

It seems you missed my earlier post on the same topic, the day after the elections on Nov 8:

Re: The 2024 Elections in the US, mostly for the POTUS
Postby jusplay4fun on Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:47 am

The SCOTUS seems to have given Democrats the political issue (abortion) needed to overcome many other issues in the 2023 elections.

Yes, I do recall that, and your post led to other posts. That is how forum threads work. Neat, huh?
Most* of the subsequent threads were still on the same topic too: abortion. ..and to think, you made it all possible... kinda, anyway.

*Yes, a few posters did seem more eager to discuss playing with their Ayn Rand Realdolls®, but I steered our course back on track.

[jusplay4fun]

At a quick glance, it appears that abortion is THE issue for current elections. It will be interesting going forward if other issues become more important to most voters.

Yes, I posted this to return the discussion to important national issues that actually impact elections.

Since the post immediately before yours concerned the same issue (abortion), I must assume that you only posted because you wanted to push buttons.

Please note, I wasn't being in any way metaphorical there. In your case, I just meant that you literally wanted to push buttons on your keyboard.

It seems you missed my earlier post on the same topic, the day after the elections on Nov 8:

Re: The 2024 Elections in the US, mostly for the POTUS
Postby jusplay4fun on Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:47 am

The SCOTUS seems to have given Democrats the political issue (abortion) needed to overcome many other issues in the 2023 elections.

Yes, I do recall that, and your post led to other posts. That is how forum threads work. Neat, huh?
Most* of the subsequent threads were still on the same topic too: abortion. ..and to think, you made it all possible... kinda, anyway.

*Yes, a few posters did seem more eager to discuss playing with their Ayn Rand Realdolls®, but I steered our course back on track.

You are very QUICK to attempt to STEAL and claim all the “glory.” Well done, vot/bot; keep up the “good work.”

[Votanic]

At a quick glance, it appears that abortion is THE issue for current elections. It will be interesting going forward if other issues become more important to most voters.

Yes, I posted this to return the discussion to important national issues that actually impact elections.

Since the post immediately before yours concerned the same issue (abortion), I must assume that you only posted because you wanted to push buttons.

Please note, I wasn't being in any way metaphorical there. In your case, I just meant that you literally wanted to push buttons on your keyboard.

It seems you missed my earlier post on the same topic, the day after the elections on Nov 8:

Re: The 2024 Elections in the US, mostly for the POTUS
Postby jusplay4fun on Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:47 am

The SCOTUS seems to have given Democrats the political issue (abortion) needed to overcome many other issues in the 2023 elections.

Yes, I do recall that, and your post led to other posts. That is how forum threads work. Neat, huh?
Most* of the subsequent threads were still on the same topic too: abortion. ..and to think, you made it all possible... kinda, anyway.

*Yes, a few posters did seem more eager to discuss playing with their Ayn Rand Realdolls®, but I steered our course back on track.

You are very QUICK to attempt to STEAL and claim all the “glory.” Well done, vot/bot; keep up the “good work.”

If it was anyone else, I would assume this was some ham-fisted attempt to 'out-sarcasm' me... as if?
But since this is Jus', I can only respond with "Huh?".

[jusplay4fun]

I should add that I am grateful to see and read new views by 4 new guys:

GaryDenton, Lonous, Pack Rat, and Votanic.



Even though I disagree with some of their statements and viewpoints, it is good to have fresh voices and different perspectives in this Forum. I appreciate a few new ideas.

[saxitoxin]

12 Years a Democrat

West Virginia used to be Purple

Elections to the House of Delegates ---

[saxitoxin]

I should add that I am grateful to see and read new views by 4 new guys:

GaryDenton, Lonous, Pack Rat, and Votanic.

I'm grateful for three of the four.