Customer @#%$&**^% Service Mafia END Mafia win

[ZaBeast]

If dgz didn't know he was the hammer (which he admitted to not knowing), the fact he actually was is irrelevant to your argument (I don't think the premise that scum never hammers is true anyways). You can't say him not knowing he was the hammer is a scumtell, but the fact he was the hammer makes it so he can't be scum, that just makes no sense.

I said - normally scum would join the wagon early.. that's a voting pattern... and not be the hammer because whoever hammers is the most suspicious, but I somehow believe dgz he didn't even check how many votes was on Raz. That is irresponsible play but knowing him and meta on him makes that very possible. I would lynch him just for that, but that's pretty much same play as Razor.

And I'm saying if you think scum are avoiding being the hammer because it is suspicious, but a player hammers without knowing he was the hammer, it makes no sense to townread the player based on that.

The reason I had blacky on my scum list is because he is a store employee. Madness that you still have me on your list despite all the talk above about flavour roles... with all the flavour discussion do you really think I would offer up this info if I was scum?

I agree, and I already said as much, that scumhunting/voting based on flavor will get us nowhere. However, your argument is flawed as you offered up the fact you were a store employee BEFORE all the flavor talk.

Funny to see pika not claiming after he said stuff like this just in his previous game. I would say that would put him as my 2nd scum read. I'm keeping my vote on dgz for now, but will vote pika to move the game along if needed.

[Pikanchion]

Tobikera's vote for me:

I just re-read the last four pages. One thing that struck me is that Ragian is really pushing for more involvement and scum-hunting. I would not expect this from a mafia person. Easier to make mistakes if there is little discussion and then a rush to vote before a deadline. And, if there is a no lynch, then that give scum a free night shot. Ergo, I am taking Ragian off of my FOS list for the moment.

I'm a bit confused about jfm's family-orientation. I'm listed as part of it, but have no evidence of same in info received from the mod. I do agree with jfm about Razor's lynch list, as stated before, and think we need to sort out a suitable candidate from that list:

ragoo, jfm, pika, dakky, dgz....I removed aage and substituted jfm for chap as per the thread.

If I had to choose, I would choose between pika and dgz....pika because of his bulldog insistence of a policy lynch, and dgz based on a feeling, not necessarily any solid facts. Also, I note that ZaBeast is sort of hanging back, making the occasional cameo appearance, but not fully involved like he was in the other game. Perhaps that is due, in part, to the fact that he replaced Mets after D1/N1.

Since we need to do something, I will reinstate my D1 vote:
[b.][color=#FF0000.]VOTE PIKA[/color][/b]

"I'm just going to vote for whomever I voted for yesterday so I don't have to actually participate."
Incidentally, yesterday's reason—being the claimed basis for today's vote—is as follows (I would say today's vote is more than likely an OMGUS in reality):

Parroting Ragian here a bit, but with some differences:

Pika is my best scum read so far. It's always tough to separate Pika's personal style of interaction with reality and his Mafia-persona. So, I could be reading him all wrong in this game. I think in real life, Pika is an Analytical type (perhaps an Analytical-Analytical). Time is important to him, detail is important, always wants information from others (data) but does not respond in kind.....and won't easily admit he's wrong. He follows a set of rules, never questioning whether the rules are right or applicable....black/white, get it right. He can't believe that others don't always agree with him. And, all that from playing parts of two games with him.... :lol: Not trying to offend, we desperately need analytical types in our world to avoid costly and tragic errors and to make sure that verification is done and done properly, just not in high level managerial roles. This is something I was trained to do as Exec. Dir. of three non-profit corporations in my past life. If you couldn't figure out people's behavioral type (and subtype) and how to deal with each, then you didn't land any big-dollar contracts too often, or get them renewed. In comparison, I am an "amiable driver" behavioral type: tell me what my resources are and get the hell out of my way so I can get the job done...I don't easily delegate....broad strokes, but a sufficient number of details.....project completion on time is important....but, if I run over someone in the process of getting my job done, I stop, pick them up, and make sure they are OK (aka, a nice SOB). In this game, Pika's quick and continued insistence on a policy lynch because of my D1 faux pas got my attention.

I've got the strongest town read on Dakky. He's the only one who even hinted that what I was saying about my role name was reality, even though he claimed in the process. Others were derisive and/or dismissive.

I'm leaning town on blacky and Strike Wolf and Chap and Rage at the moment.

No clue about Aage, Mets, Razor, DGZ and Mets.

[b.][color=#BF0000.]VOTE Pika[/color][/b]

TL;DR: Armchair psychologist drivel followed by a half-hearted disagreement with policy lynching. Great.

—

dakky21's vote:

I really don't know what to do as a VT. No one screams to me as scum like jfm did in last game, as I said I can read some scumtells but so far no one is jumping out of context, except maybe Pika for referring to an old game where scum won (and he was scum) because someone early claimed VT. Voting Tobi back there just for bad play (or anti-town move, call it however you wish) is scummy to me as quoting that game isn't relevant to this one at all, but gives Pika an excuse to vote someone without proper reasons.

What do you think about the voting pattern from D1?

I think dgz is absent with his mind like he doesn't care at all for the game, I believe that he hammered without knowing he will hammer. That may be a scumtell because scum don't care who they will vote, but they don't do the hammer as it is way too suspicious, especially like dgz played D1.

Similar as dgz, Razor had it coming as he wasn't really contributing at all and refused to contribute. So I can't draw much more from the voting pattern. I think at least one scum was on that wagon and I'll just go with my last post and

[b.][color=#FF0000.]unvote
vote Pika[/color][/b]

"I don't believe the past can ever be used as an analogue for the future and, even though it was clearly explained, I don't believe claiming VT day one is bad play, nor should it be lynchable even if it were. Instead of making a case as for why, I'm just going to also claim, and then complain that my role has been rendered useless by my own hand (even though the downsides of claimed VTs over unclaimed were warned about by the very person I refuse to engage with in a reasonable way), also it's everybody else's fault for not scumhunting for me."

—

jfm10's vote:

No way Pika is scum. Unless he's the boldest scum I've ever encountered.

Eh... That's a pretty bold proclamation.

I haven't played a lot with dakky, but I've played the last two with him. He seemed scummy last time and was town. He's doing similar things here. Idk why he would do the things he did. I really don't get it. Is it scummy? I guess I don't really think so. But there was no need for it.

I'm interested in the polar opposite view points of Pika from Ragian and Tobi. I guess I just think it's hard to get good reads either way. So for one of you to say #1 town and the other to say #1 scum just shows that.

I'm gonna get on board with Rage for making Razor give an opinion on D1.

I am at this point of the game (page 7) and with the stubborness of pikas insistence for a policy lynch has me pegging him as scum.Ragians view of pika has me thinking he may aswell be scum and just trying to distance himself but just got my eyes looking that way for now.

Pikanchion ---- scummy for the persistence of a policy lynch
dakky21 ------- town from what i have read
aage ----------- dead townie
Ragian ---------egmeoy
strike wolf ----
chapcrap ------town
Razorvich ------ dead townie
blacky365 -----
dgz345 ---------
Metsfanmax ---
Tobikera ------- town from what i have read

I will update (maybe)when i get to it on page 10.

[color=#FF0000.][b.]unvote[/b][/color] just in case :P

[color=#FF0000.][b.]vote pika[/b][/color]

Policy lynches are bad because I believe dakky21 and Tobikera are Town. I believe they are Town entirely on the basis of flavour (which was dakky21's stated reason for trusting Tobikera too for that matter) which has since been thoroughly discredited."

So we have two players voting for me because I called out their bad play, and a third for which Ragian summed it up perfectly with:

Okay. You are voting Pika because you think he's scum for wanting rid of the players that played antitown. Gotcha.

—

I have no intention to claim if these are the ironclad reasons people have for voting.

Meanwhile in case I get quick lynched or something I will state the following:

If I am a...

• Vanilla Townie: No action taken
• Cop: I targeted Ragian last night, Town result
• Doctor: I targeted Ragian last night
• Jailor: I targeted ZaBeast last night
• Roleblocker: I targeted Tobikera last night
• Tracker: I targeted dakky21 last night, no result
• Vigilante: No action taken
• Watcher: I targeted Tobikera last night, no result
• Any other role: I targeted dakky21 last night, no result

[Tobikera]

Pika said:
I have no intention to claim if these are the ironclad reasons people have for voting.

Well, at least you tried to defend yourself, albeit somewhat arrogantly. You quite well could be town, but my vote stays on principle, based on the way you play. Seeking to avoid lynching, at L-2, by denigrating others rather than proving/explaining yourself, is scummy to me. I've been in more than a few games where someone, sometimes randomly selected, have been brought to L-2 to force a claim for no other reason than moving the game along. Your claim, excluding any flavor, could prove valuable for the town side. If you are town, your refusal to claim could alert the scum that you have something valuable to hide.

[Ragian]

First off, how old are you guys, blacky and tobi, since you can't read colours?

Second off, @Beast, did you fudge your quote, or does blacky actually have blacky on his fos list?

Finally, I agree that the "defence" is very arrogant (and not too helpful if what Pika sees is inexperienced players, as the point would be to educated rather than denigrate). Also, not claiming at L-2 is always suspicious in my book as anyone at L-2 can then go, "Oh well, I'm not claiming." However, I will reiterate that Pika is my strongest town read still (and playing to his arrogant town meta to boot), so I will not vote him.

@Pika, any of your votes come from scum?

[dakky21]

Second off, @Beast, did you fudge your quote, or does blacky actually have blacky on his fos list?

dgz on last page actually wrote that and Beast wrongly quoted.

[ZaBeast]

The reason I had blacky on my scum list is because he is a store employee.

Madness that you still have me on your list despite all the talk above about flavour roles... with all the flavour discussion do you really think I would offer up this info if I was scum?

Fixed, thanks for pointing it out
Fair enough pika but do you think any of the later "I'm voting jfm because someone has to claim" jfm votes on the game I quoted (into the deep) had more basis than the votes you have atm?

[Pikanchion]

If you are town, your refusal to claim could alert the scum that you have something valuable to hide.

If I am a VT this is a good thing, scum might target me instead of a Power Role. If I am a Doctor (assuming no Bodyguard/Bus Driver is present), this is a better situation than having claimed. If I'm another power role this is not really any worse a position than I would be in having claimed.

—

Also, not claiming at L-2 is always suspicious in my book as anyone at L-2 can then go, "Oh well, I'm not claiming." However, I will reiterate that Pika is my strongest town read still (and playing to his arrogant town meta to boot), so I will not vote him.

@Pika, any of your votes come from scum?

Given dakky21 and jfm10 seem to be actively avoiding engagement with any of the points I have made I see no reason to behave in the expected way to their votes on me.

Regarding votes coming from scum, I don't know. My best case for Toibikera has already been posted, likewise I've said previously much of what I find scummy about dakky21 however the deliberate way my recent criticism has been ignored I find especially bad. In the case of jfm10 we find somebody voting for me for a reason that is then shown to be based upon a false premise, and instead of changing approach in any way we get doubling down until pushed by you to provide actual reasoning, and suddenly the vote for me is actually based upon an entirely different reason.

In a related matter, why won't blacky365 answer my simple question?

Out of curiosity (and since you made no comment at the time), what did you make of this post?

Because you and pika don't recognize it means you are not with the same group as us so yous have abilities,care to share what each of yous were doing last night,blacky aswell i reckon.

—

Finally, I agree that the "defence" is very arrogant (and not too helpful if what Pika sees is inexperienced players, as the point would be to educated rather than denigrate).

It was indignant not arrogant :^)
Arrogance is jfm10's post hoc rationalisation of the vote for me after it's original basis is shown to be incorrect, and Tobikera's attempt at psychological analysis after a single game of mafia with me (before my alignment in said game had even been revealed).

—

Fair enough pika but do you think any of the later "I'm voting jfm because someone has to claim" jfm votes on the game I quoted (into the deep) had more basis than the votes you have atm?

Without going back to look at them, yes. If that was the stated reason for the vote(s) then I find it far more legitimate than dakky21 or jfm10's votes in particular. Tobikera's vote today which—as I have already expressed—appears to be an OMGUS (something I would say is tacitly acknowledged by this post), is also not as good a reason as somebody needs to claim because it's day one and we've got nothing to go on in my opinion, but it's not as egregious as the other two.

[dgz345]

Pika feels town with all this shit...

I'm lost now.

Jfm?

[Ragian]

What are you asking jmf?

[dgz345]

What are you asking jmf?

idk. was on phone so that was the first name i got to my head.

someone must be scum. and we town have 0 clues.

[blacky365]

In a related matter, why won't blacky365 answer my simple question?

Out of curiosity (and since you made no comment at the time), what did you make of this post?

Because you and pika don't recognize it means you are not with the same group as us so yous have abilities,care to share what each of yous were doing last night,blacky aswell i reckon.

Firstly, why would you expect me to answer when you are not even claiming when you are at L-2?
But the reason I won’t answer is because it could give away any role I have. I am not in a position where I feel compelled to answer so leave it be.
Oh and it’s not a ‘simple question’!
—-
@rage. We all know tobi is an old git but I’m only 36 but although I can see well I didnt think blue stands out enough.
—-

I am quite torn here, I strongly believe we should be lynching someone each day, after all, this is a daily normal game so towns only hope of a victory is to scum hunt effectively, no one really stands out as scum and that I would feel comfortable lynching. But if we don’t then we will go into the night with one less team mate and no new information. So we really do need a lynch...

[ZaBeast]

Blacky, pika wasn't asking you to answer jfm's question, but say what you think about it. I can understand you're against claiming any night action you might have, I think his question was more along the lines of whether you think jfm was being scummy when asking?

idk. was on phone so that was the first name i got to my head.

someone must be scum. and we town have 0 clues.

So you're just hoping to luck out in catching scum? So far the only reasons you've given for suspecting/voting people are
- Raz: "Guess we wont know anymore from him hiding in the dark."
- Pika and Blacky: a feeling, and blacky is a store employee
- jfm: "why not him?"
Care to give actual insight into the other players instead of coasting along and voting seemingly randomly?

[Ragian]

I think it's dgz. The hammer might be an accident, but carelessness is a scummy trait. Moreover, he doesn't seem invested. "Someone has to be scum" equals "I don't care who we lynch."

However, the next question would then be: If dgz is scum, who is his teammate? (With a lyncher present and the number of people playing, I presume two scum.) if he's town, who is then likely to be scum? I'll need to read back the thread to get a clearer understanding of that (and not be on my mobile).

I'm voting today. Everyone voting should ask themselves the questions above.

[strike wolf]

Pika, I tend to agree with Rage that you are town but you're really not doing yourself many favors in how you're defending yourself.

[dakky21]

I think it's dgz. The hammer might be an accident, but carelessness is a scummy trait. Moreover, he doesn't seem invested. "Someone has to be scum" equals "I don't care who we lynch."

While I agree that carelessness is a scummy trait, Razor didn't play any much differently, yet ended as town. If dgz is scum and going with that route - expecting that he won't get lynched because Razor was an example of carelessness, that's a pretty bold move. I'm not sure what to think here, is he just careless or is pretending to be careless.

[dgz345]

I think it's dgz. The hammer might be an accident, but carelessness is a scummy trait. Moreover, he doesn't seem invested. "Someone has to be scum" equals "I don't care who we lynch."

While I agree that carelessness is a scummy trait, Razor didn't play any much differently, yet ended as town. If dgz is scum and going with that route - expecting that he won't get lynched because Razor was an example of carelessness, that's a pretty bold move. I'm not sure what to think here, is he just careless or is pretending to be careless.

I don't know why people still bring up the Razor thing. It was a honest mistake but I would most likely voted him and give him the hammer anyways as it was a majority by town. So it was not only me that made a "mistake"

I'll see if I can write a summary tonight when I have time at the computer.

If the kids want to sleep at a good time tonight...

[strike wolf]

I think it's dgz. The hammer might be an accident, but carelessness is a scummy trait. Moreover, he doesn't seem invested. "Someone has to be scum" equals "I don't care who we lynch."

While I agree that carelessness is a scummy trait, Razor didn't play any much differently, yet ended as town. If dgz is scum and going with that route - expecting that he won't get lynched because Razor was an example of carelessness, that's a pretty bold move. I'm not sure what to think here, is he just careless or is pretending to be careless.

I don't know why people still bring up the Razor thing. It was a honest mistake but I would most likely voted him and give him the hammer anyways as it was a majority by town. So it was not only me that made a "mistake"

I'll see if I can write a summary tonight when I have time at the computer.

If the kids want to sleep at a good time tonight...

How do you know the majority of people on that lynch were town?

Vote DGZ

[dakky21]

I don't know why people still bring up the Razor thing. It was a honest mistake but I would most likely voted him and give him the hammer anyways as it was a majority by town. So it was not only me that made a "mistake"

How do you know the majority of people on that lynch were town?

Vote DGZ

I'll stop defending DGZ here as this is a clear slip but I still think that his computer brain takes things differently than normal people. If there are 11 players then majority of town had to be on the lynch. So I kinda understand what he wanted to say, but just said it in a wrong format. It may be a slip or he is just bugged with programming stuff and numbers are all around him but we will never find out unless we finally lynch him. I'm also tired of this "what if" and "if then". If he is town then I was right all along and I guess we have some material to go through with people who disagreed that he is just distracted and lost.

unvote
vote dgz

[Ragian]

Not sure what the VC is, but at least let him get his summary in first.

[dgz345]

How do you know the majority of people on that lynch were town?

Vote DGZ

Didn't Ragian say in a post above that the estimated scum count is 2

And it needed 6 votes?

Or do you say that there was 4 mafia voting?

I don't think that's a valid excuse for vote strike.

U been on me for a long time now.

FOS on you from me.

[Ragian]

I tend to agree with dgz here to be honest.

[dgz345]

I'll stop defending DGZ here as this is a clear slip but I still think that his computer brain takes things differently than normal people. If there are 11 players then majority of town had to be on the lynch. So I kinda understand what he wanted to say, but just said it in a wrong format. It may be a slip or he is just bugged with programming stuff and numbers are all around him but we will never find out unless we finally lynch him. I'm also tired of this "what if" and "if then". If he is town then I was right all along and I guess we have some material to go through with people who disagreed that he is just distracted and lost.

unvote
vote dgz

Atleast u understood without thinking I "slipped"

I don't have anything against your vote. I would have voted on myself if I could.
(need of lynch) just sad that strike wants to bring that to me.

To be fair this makes him town. I don't think mafia would dare to start the push on me.

@strike I asked you before if you had any questions and I would answer them with the truth.

I ain't hiding anything. But I'm starting to get the same mentality as pika and dakky

[dgz345]

I tend to agree with dgz here to be honest.

I'll check strikes posts when I get to the computer tonight

[strike wolf]

Fair. It's not as damning as I first imagined. A lot of its wording, like he knew not believed that it was majority town. I haven't really gotten into it because I don't know how Skoffin likes to set up her games but 11 player games would usually have 3 mafia (I believe the old equation was that mafia should equal roughly 20-30% of total players. This varies a little depending on total power roles and how they are distributed.) With a lyncher (Whose targets alignment is unknown) and a lack of power roles, that number might go down but it's far from a guarantee. Either way, it's fair that maybe the comments about 2 mafia could have caused the thinking.

Probably actually weirder is Dakkys reasoning when he voted you. "Well I'm gonna stop defending him but let me lay out all the reasons why this might not be damning."

Unvote for the moment because I think he's at L-1

@dgz I brought up my reasons for suspecting you earlier and others have echoed them. At this point, it comes down to do we feel that carelessness is a valid excuse for your voting more than questioning you. I do not and others have made it clear they do not either. To me between your Raz hammer, Pika vote and a lot of flavor and other not really important discussion. You come across as an opportunistic voter who was trying to make himself look more active/helpful than he was which tends to be a scum trait. Also while I'm not sure on the nature of Dakkys relation with you, his interactions with you strike me as odd. He's defending you at times when he would normally be the first one to jump down your throat for a common slip like hammering.

[dgz345]

Well dakky knows me better than I know him