Closed S&M Cheating Abuse fishydance, Josko.ri, random21

[josko.ri]

To add to TeeGee's post, fishydance chose World 2.1 Poly(4) Unlimited fort a her HOME game in our Poly war vs ATN, see Game 16828701.

So obviously fishydance is convinced that World 2.1 Unlimited Poly(4) is the strongest strategical settings for her, of all possible maps/settings. She played that map in quads 50 times, more than me who sat for her.

On the other side nibotha played Usa 2.1 quads 1 time EVER before you sat for him, and that 1 time it was versus weak team where the most ranked player has 1400 points. So the game where you sat for nibotha was his first time ever quads on Usa 2.1 map played versus strong team with Field Marshall, Generals and Colonels.

Contrary to TOP case and obvious lack of experience by nibotha for given map, fishydance played World 2.1 quads 50 times and Usa 2.1 quads 24 times, so she is quite a lot experienced on these maps, more than me (35 times played) who sat for her in World 2.1.

[BoganGod]

Curse you FF, making me agree with Josko.ri. Thanks for the apology mod force, am hoping you can finish this off quickly. Some good people, and josko, are being attacked here for no good reason.
Free fishy, free fishy!!!!

[niMic]

Have you checked each player here on these maps

Fishy is very experienced on that map (50 quad games) and over 400 team games

random21 has only 7 quad games and no extra team games on that map
Davekettering has 4 quad games and 8 team games
Josko has 35 quad games and 42 team games

So can you tell me, who has more experience on this map?

I assume he is just trying to mislead people. Josko has indeed played World 2.1 nearly 20 times as much as fishy in the last year, and the same so far in 2017. It's complete and utter nonsense, of course, since fishy has still played more than double the amount of team/poly games that Josko has on that map. And it's not like World 2.1 changed in that time.

How anyone can think she would feel the need to step down from playing the map she has played a full fifth of her games on is beyond me.

[Donelladan]

I am lost, I thought we were speaking of USA 2.1 in the OP ?

[niMic]

I have no idea, to be honest, I was just going off what TeeGee and josko said.

If it turns out I'm wrong I'll delete my post.

[Extreme Ways]

I am lost, I thought we were speaking of USA 2.1 in the OP ?

I believe TG highlights the issue that not only turns were taken in USA2.1, but also in World 2.1.

[xroads]

Josko was named in the report because he sat for her in the world 2.1 game. He did not sit for her in the USA 2.1 game. Random sat for her in the USA 2.1 game.

So their argument was that Josko had 20x more experience in world 2.1 when in fact the opposite was true, a less experienced player was sitting for her.

[rockfist]

Am I the only one who thinks board experience is over-rated when dealing with top players? If Fishy or Josko have 40 games on a board they know what they are doing...they *might* be .1% better at 300 games versus 40, but that is not .1% better on one turn, that's over the course of a game, on one turn that .1% is almost meaningless.

I think the settings matter more than the board. Someone could be dynamite at unlimited forts on a board, but not so good at parachute. That's only my opinion though, others may see it differently.

[fishydance]

Am I the only one who thinks board experience is over-rated when dealing with top players? If Fishy or Josko have 40 games on a board they know what they are doing...they *might* be .1% better at 300 games versus 40, but that is not .1% better on one turn, that's over the course of a game, on one turn that .1% is almost meaningless.

I think the settings matter more than the board. Someone could be dynamite at unlimited forts on a board, but not so good at parachute. That's only my opinion though, others may see it differently.

I agree that settings make a big difference. For instance, on the World map both Josko and I are highly experienced with unlimited settings, but I probably have more games under my belt. Change that to nuclear and Josko is more experienced. Change that to parachute and I don't know if either of us would care to play

The other thing to take into account are teams that regularly play a map together. Once a team has played a map together many times, they have a collaborative pattern in place. So one player covering for another within that team makes little difference.

[rockfist]

I agree. I don't like parachute either on W2.1...its funny I like unlimited forts but I haven't played it a lot on W2.1...despite playing several hundred games on that map.

[Shannon Apple]

I agree that settings make a big difference. For instance, on the World map both Josko and I are highly experienced with unlimited settings, but I probably have more games under my belt. Change that to nuclear and Josko is more experienced. Change that to parachute and I don't know if either of us would care to play

The other thing to take into account are teams that regularly play a map together. Once a team has played a map together many times, they have a collaborative pattern in place. So one player covering for another within that team makes little difference.

When you're in a good clan and a good team, and TOP should know this if their rankings are anything to go by, there is no advantage to someone else on your team taking your turn. In fact, that's one less pair of eyes throwing in their two cents to the move. Those same moves would be taken either way. It would be an issue if Fishy was online within a few hours of those turns being taken and didn't bother to take them, but she'd never do that.

As for parachute lol, I agree. I am currently playing what is probably my first ever game on that setting. I have quite a good record on Hive, both on teams and as a solo player, but I rely a little more on my teammates knowledge of parachute Hive atm.

It's silly to suggest that another member of the team taking a turn is giving a distinct advantage. It's only preventing a missed turn. Even in the case of a sitter from outside the team, there will be extensive notes left in chat for what they must do. Say for instance, I'm a mod and the only person who can emergency sit for me is TeeGee, unless I tell admins and have my mod access temporarily removed. If he's not a member of my team for that game, he'll be following the instructions of the other members of that team. There's no advantage to that, regardless of experience.

[Donelladan]

omg shannon.
Actually you just used the TOP's defense when TOP was accused by S&M to sit in order to get tactical advantage...

I'd like people to stop talking about skills because that's not the point, even if it is part of the accusation.
That I am covering a turn for a player with only 1 game played or that a player with only 1 game played is covering a turn for me should be irrelevant.
What matters is : should I have been playing my own turn ? If I could have, then it might be sitting abuse. If I couldn't have played my own turn, no sitting abuse.
That's what matter, and that is why there is no sitting abuse in this case. Nothing to do with the skills of any players involved.

[Shannon Apple]

I did? I don't follow this stuff as a rule and didn't even read that complaint. I am only going on what was said earlier in this thread. If a player was online, but didn't bother to take their clan turn (which seems to have been the case with the TOP player accused before) then they were in the wrong. Actually, someone doing that is being lazy and it's not fair on your teammates.

I wasn't necessarily defending S&M, just saying how I think it should be, regardless of what clan you are in. I know in this case that S&M did nothing wrong.

In other words, you just agreed with my post

[IcePack]

First, let me get the ultimate ruling out of the way and then I will provide some additional explainations / details below it for those who would like additional information so they are more educated and better understand what is expected of them within the clan community.

Looking into the evidence & explainations provided by both TOP and S&M and the various people within the groups, there is no evidence of gross sitting abuse conducted by S&M, specifically fishy / josko / random. The 9 games being sat provided within the evidence spread out over two months does not show that fishy was in anyway incapable of playing the vast majority of her turns, during that time period or moving forward.

The remake of the original game will stand as was originally ruled on by Lindax and upheld later after an appeal, during the TOP sitting case(s).

--------Further Info--------

These two cases are very different, as several people have pointed out. The original case brought forth by josko covered a wide variety of players and games (all from TOP). The admin took the list provided by josko of names, dates, games etc and reviewed for evidence of sitting abuse taking place.

During this intial review, admin noted that in general and not directly related to this case there seemed to be an excessive level of sitting within TOP, which was deemed worthy of a clan wide PM reminder that sitting should only be conducted on planned absenses, or under emergency considerations. While we understand "day to day" things occur in everyones lives, ultimately everyone is supposed to be responsible for their own turns. Emergencies, while undefined, in of itself really explains a lot. If you consider that you are to be taking your own turns in general, and only emergencies should keep you away, you shouldn't be having "emergencies" on a very frequent basis. Otherwise, one begins to question what you are calling an "emergency".

These things generally are worked out between clans, and generally only reviewed only on a reported basis (such as the case S&M brought forward and now TOP). Although some spot checking and reviews have taken place in the past on a random type basis just to make sure people are generally complying with whats expected.

Getting back to the TOP case in particular, one instance in particular stood out pretty clear as "questionable". This was the game where freefalling123 sat for nibotha, shortly after nibotha had been online.

I reached out to both FF & nib to get an explaination of what happened, only to have PaulatPeace respond with an explaination for them. His explaination of events was:

nibotha is at work and clearly states he will be unable to check in on the game.

My understanding is that nibotha took several turns from home and then had to rush to work. Discussion was still ongoing in that game as to the best move to make & he did not have time to take the turn. The time went way below 2 hrs and Free took the turn for nibotha as permitted.

His reasoning was, that the "clan guidance" on sitting allows for sitting to take place if less than two hours on the clock, and if they do not take turns during work hours.

It was explained that if you look at the very next paragraph, it also says "this does not cover all circumstances....The person in question must not have been online recently taking their own turns."

After again asking the individuals actually involved for a first hand account of what happened, we were provided with this from nibotha:

Freefalling123 went out for dinner and was unable to post instructions in game chat in time for me to execute them. PaulatPeace messaged me on WhatsApp and we discussed the options.
At 07.08 GMT+2-
I wrote to Paul-"I am available now...I am here full time but can't be given a specific 2 hour window to take turns (I have a full time job)"

also:

Firstly I don't see the difference between following instructions left by someone on your team and that player executing these instructions himself.

This last part is not something thats considered. Again, the rules clearly state that you should be taking your own turns, whether you are reading directions from chat or not. If you are online and have an opportunity to take that turn, you can not leave it because "FF went to dinner and didn't have instructions in time for him to execute them". Its also not acceptable that someone sits, as regardless of tactical advantages gained or not gained, if they had the chance to play it themselves recently they should have taken their own turn regardless of whether directiosn were in chat.

FreeFallings defense was that there were two moves described in chat (which he posted in the PM) and that:

I ended up playing this move when I jumped on Nibs account... I didn't even really care which move got played to be honest, the game is going to be an easy win... I just happened to hop on with an hour left... it could be any one of our clan sitters...
------

I am so busy IRL right now I don't even know what happened anymore. Nibs walled me at 3 hours left saying he's leaving the move... when I got wind of this there was less than an hour left... I may have even been taking my turns before I even realized....
To say Nibs cheated by leaving a move with 3 hours having when he had no idea if I or anyone else was online to cover him is a hard bargain... we do have people trying to watch for that same situation in our clan... but calling it risky or trusting from nibotha can be hard to judge... I know it's risky, but other people can say he knows I'm going to catch the turn... Okay...

For me, I am basically working full time going to school and then trying to put together some moves for my clanmates in my free time without much time to do it... I'm only sneaking on for a minute to address this because I know the mods have a tough job figuring it out.

Let me just state how my day went that day, the 24 hour turn for me went like this: 15 minutes after the move... I saw and left messy comments for Nibs to decipher... went to sleep thereafter... wake up... go to work... maybe there was 7-8 hours left of the move when I got done working but my next 4 hours I was playing tennis with a friend / playing games with my bosses kids then reading them bedtime stories... settling down for myself, eating, looking over h/w... I barely got on CC to take my own moves let alone set up a plan to sit for Nibs at such low time... Take it how you want... if it was cheating it wasn't deliberate and if there is any flaw here it's my terrible notes and my and james (nibs) lack of communciation skills

So, after discussing with admin and examining logins of the clans, etc. we determined:

1) A general clan wide warning would be issued to all in order to curb non emergency sitting habits, and get people to focus in general on taking their turns more than it seemed they currently were.

2) nibotha was generally found to be at fault, and that he should have taken his turn when he had the chance regardless of what directions were (or were not) included in the chat at the time if he knew he was going to work and could not take the turn there (or was questionable). This gave him an official warning for account sitting abuse. (essentially, what we do for first offense is a warning + educate so it doesn't happen in the future)

3) FreeFalling123, as part of the situation & game in question / focus, was also given a warning + educate for first offense. However, josko appealed under the condition that he had a past sitting abuse case against his record and was determined the next step on punishment scale would be applied. (which he later appealed, and admin released early)

4) While some may have been questionable, other games reported by josko were deemed as "inconclusive" and we chose to lump those into #1, a general clan warning instead of specific warnings to individual players.

This information regarding the game and sitting abuse was turned over to the Clan TO (Lindax) who then ruled that because sitting abuse is looked at as a major infraction, he would remake the game. This wasn't because there was some 50% turn ratio of sitting, or any rule like that I've seen mentioned multiple times but does not exist. It was because account sitting abuse is viewed very seriously by both the site, and the clan team in general.

TOP appealed, and it was rejected. They felt that because #4 was deemed as "inconclusive" it was harsh to remake the game. However, it was just those others specifically mentioned in joskos case that were inconclusive, and not #2 and 3. In fact, if anything #4 being determined to be included with #1 drastically reduced the amount of potential games that might have been remade, had we looked into further and interviewed everyone instead of providing the general warning.

But at the end of the day, we felt one remake was not unreasonable when there was (intentional or not) direct and clear case of sitting abuse and that a general warning to the clan would help both educate and reduce the potential of issues in the future.

--------

In the S&M case reported here, sporadic sitting coverage for 1-2 months doesn't indicate that someone is unable to take the vast majority of their turns. This rule is generally to avoid things like putting a player into the game right before a planned vacation, and that sort of thing.

If anything, if there was a question (which by looking at timelines and explainations provided by S&M) of her availability (which at the time there wasn't) it would have been prudent to ask Lindax if it was a requirement to field exactly teh same team for the remake, or if someone could have been subbed. But again, as has been demonstrated here, I dont believe they did know prior to the remake until after the game started that there might have been a question or issue moving forward.

-----

Hopefully that very long explaination will help settle questions and understandings on all sides. This case will be closed.

Thanks,
IcePack

[FreeFalling123]

I realize the case is closed and this is over, but I wanted to address a few comments before I pack my bags.


1. Paul did not know if I had left notes or what happened. I can guarantee that I was the only player in my clan that knew this turn was covered. Nibotha did not know I was around to cover and nobody else was paying attention to this game -- especially after I had proclaimed our drop was going to be winning very early.
-- This was not an intentional gesture by any means. NIBOTHA DID NOT LEAVE HIS TURN FOR A SITTER. HE MIGHT AS WELL HAVE ASSUMED A MISS WITHOUT MY 2AM LUCKY CATCH.

2. Fishy had only played 5 games THIS ENTIRE YEAR (march 2016 to march 2017) on the map. Random has played it over 100 times. I am sure Random has consistently been showing fishy the new strategies developing / keeping her up-to-date, but I know for a fact that playing 5 games isn't going to improve the strategy of the game.
-- When Kaskavel was playing 1v1s openly on Hive, I was also. And I will tell you that EVERYONE playing against him was adapting his strategies and using them against me. Random is THAT GOOD on USA 2.1. People adapt his strategies, not the other way around.
Random is a professional on USA 2.1 and fishy is just a top recreational player. Her recent experience isn't good enough to say it is at Random's level. I don't care how much you guys want to sugar coat it or how much you think I am crazy for saying it. Just like I can play show someone in my clan how to win a Hive quads consistently that doesn't mean they will be able to win it without me, which I have not seen fishydance ever do... so what stats are we really looking at?

[rockfist]

I don't understand the need to denigrate Fishy's ability on USA2.1. I consider myself very good on that map and I would not suspect I would win more than 50% against her unless I had some luck.

[owenshooter]

see this? see this, right here? see this, right here underneath these words?

Since Fishy has not being responsible for these key moves, we at TOP believe justice
must be served.

that right there is where you lost me... good luck...-Jésus noir

p.s.-you will not receive a favorable judgement within your own eyes. please try to remain calm and smart and to
not hurt yourselves... it is just a clan war on CC, at the end of the day, it truly doesn't matter...