Once Upon A Killer Mafia (14/17) A Writers Block:Endgame

[Army of GOD]

@aage we shouldn't assume anything about the lover/mason role till he explains more.

Agreed. While I feel like mods could feel "smart" or whatever pairing scum with town on lovers, I don't think we can assume anything about alignment.

Except that its pretty unlikely that two scum are lovers, right? I don't think that would be a smart play by a mod

[Zivel]

Fck it, I'm fullclaiming. I am a Lover/Mason.

Gj forcing me to reveal myself, mafia.

I know Lover is a scum safeclaim but fakeclaiming doesn't help us here does it?

Hmmm I am a lover, and my partner and I are confirmed town. And no, you are not my partner....

Scum slip? Tell me why the hell would you pick lovers to fake claim in a group this large of non vanilla? Did you really think there would not be a pair of lovers to counter claim you?

[Streaker]

Fck it, I'm fullclaiming. I am a Lover/Mason.

Gj forcing me to reveal myself, mafia.

I know Lover is a scum safeclaim but fakeclaiming doesn't help us here does it?

Hmmm I am a lover, and my partner and I are confirmed town. And no, you are not my partner....

Scum slip? Tell me why the hell would you pick lovers to fake claim in a group this large of non vanilla? Did you really think there would not be a pair of lovers to counter claim you?

Lol? Wel now this is interesting for sure. In my eyes, this just warrants an Ultra lynch even more.

Now I was willing to let go on Ultra (for today), and replace my vote on the second scum (imo) being Virus.

@PCM, I can understand you feeling i'm too agressive on Ultra, but don't accuse me of going for an 'easy' case. It's anything but easy as nobody is giving a crap to lynch him, while i'm trying to persuade everyone to lynch him.

With the situation as it is, I don't feel we can let go of Ultra's claim (and the counterclaim that followed). Would there be 2 pairs of lovers in this game? Unlikely, not impossible. Mafia would never counterclaim here (I think).

[dd515087]

I have never played a mafia game with this many long posts. Geez.
I'm sorry I have had a very busy schedule recently. Went through the most recent posts though.

Fck it, I'm fullclaiming. I am a Lover/Mason.

Gj forcing me to reveal myself, mafia.

I know Lover is a scum safeclaim but fakeclaiming doesn't help us here does it?

Hmmm I am a lover, and my partner and I are confirmed town. And no, you are not my partner....

Scum slip? Tell me why the hell would you pick lovers to fake claim in a group this large of non vanilla? Did you really think there would not be a pair of lovers to counter claim you?

Lol? Wel now this is interesting for sure. In my eyes, this just warrants an Ultra lynch even more.

Now I was willing to let go on Ultra (for today), and replace my vote on the second scum (imo) being Virus.

@PCM, I can understand you feeling i'm too agressive on Ultra, but don't accuse me of going for an 'easy' case. It's anything but easy as nobody is giving a crap to lynch him, while i'm trying to persuade everyone to lynch him.

With the situation as it is, I don't feel we can let go of Ultra's claim (and the counterclaim that followed). Would there be 2 pairs of lovers in this game? Unlikely, not impossible. Mafia would never counterclaim here (I think).

The only game that I have ever played with lovers is PYP and that was the result of Cupid's actions and it ended up being terrible for the town.
Also, if you believe it's unlikely that there are two pairs of lovers, it's more unlikely that there are 3... And no neither Ultra or Ziv is my lover. Ultra seems very scummy for claiming that he is a lover first. Ziv gets townie points for coming forward to counterclaim.

[dd515087]

Damn. I don't check in in like 2 days and there are like 3000 posts to catch up on. Not done yet. I did notice this though:

DD: kind of same as crazy milkshakes but more posts -> less content. so more scummy

More posts? Unless milkshakes has done absolutely nothing than there is no way I have more posts than him. FOS @ virus
My other reads for scum (based solely on what I've caught up) on are Anarks, Whatsausage, and aage
I will continue reading in the morning, but I'd like to get something in tonight. Again have not fully caught up and my reads could change by the time I do
Keeping my vote on HotShot for now

Umm... just as a FYI, you've never voted (or made a case on) me, your vote is still on Ultra as far as I can see. Was this a typo? Or did one of your posts not make it to the forums or something?

I saw somewhere a few pages back it was requested that I give more details on my Nark read... this was a very busy weekend for me, and I'm at work now, so I haven't had time to go back and find the posts, I will do that this evening.

With some pressure, virus made a few posts... after making all his reads, he then threw out a virtually random vote on someone he thought was "slightly scummy" and then admits he didn't build a case on zivel and wasn't actually trying to get other people to vote zivel either. (Even though the leading candidates for lynch aren't ones he suspects, he doesn't try to offer much of an alternative.)

To me, it still seems as if virus was scummarizing, got caught and tried to make some posts "giving reads", but still trying to not make waves by voting someone random without a case anyone else is expected to discuss... so still trying to scummarize and stay under the radar. So I will leave my vote on Virus as my top scum suspect for now.

Oops my bad. Definitely a typo. UltrasPlot, HotShot... They rhyme I guess I got them mixed up in my head. I like your points on Virus but, I'm keeping my vote on Ultra because of the lover ordeal, but adding Virus to my list

[dd515087]

New thought: what if all of us who have claimed lovers are town and this is just an evil twist rishaed is throwing on us... We could all be screwed
I'm tired and going to bed, I have gone through almost everything. Here are some general reads:

1.Hotshot53- leaning town
2.Pancakemix - Neutral/ leaning town
3.mtamburini - town
4.Streaker - not sure about you yet, going to have to go back through all your posts
5.Virus90- scummy
6.aage - town
7.Storrzerg - was town at first, but the more I read the more scummy he seems... going to go back through
8.Ultrasplot - scummy
9.Zivel - leaning town
10.Whatsausage - scummy
11.Army of God - scummy
12.Anamainiacks - leaning town
13.Crasp - need to find more posts
14.dd515087 - charming, easy on the eyes, I would have his children
(14.dd515187 was town, dissapeared. he played more active last game and he was mafia there.)
^ streaker's read from a couple days ago - decided to include it because it was the only one on me that didn't say "he's scum for being inactive" IIRC
15.Anarkistsdream - Neutral, leaning scum
16.Strikewolf - probably the town mayor honestly
17.Crazymilkshake5 - uhh... I don't remember seeing anyone with this name

If anyone has comments or concerns or would like to know more, you can reach me on this forum (possibly )

[Zivel]

The only game that I have ever played with lovers is PYP and that was the result of Cupid's actions and it ended up being terrible for the town.
Also, if you believe it's unlikely that there are two pairs of lovers, it's more unlikely that there are 3... And no neither Ultra or Ziv is my lover.

Da fuk?!?!?

Sigh, wtf is going on here.

DD I have no idea about now but that claim makes f*ck all sense.... I would of left it alone, you claiming now has put a target on your head when we only needed my claim to sink Ultras boat. Nvm, not how I would of done it but whats done is done.

Interested to see what Ultra has to say, how long have we got left in the day to work out wtf is going on?

[Zivel]

Interested to see what Ultra has to say, how long have we got left in the day to work out wtf is going on?

November the 8th... for me thats 4 days away, but I am well ahead of all of you guys I think... so maybe 5. Thats heaps, no need to rush this, lets get to the bottom of it all and then lynch Ultra.

[Streaker]

It makes absolutely NO sense for dd to come out and claim lover also. That means if you assume a mafia NK and maybe a bad vig or SK (just assuming here) that they can off 4 people here... Bad town play i think.

Now to think about it, if anything, dd's claim makes it MORE likely that there are actually multiple lover pairs in the game. i don't know what to think about it. Just a counterclaim would have taken down Ultra, but now it can actually make sense...

[StorrZerg]

Those that have claimed lover, are you certain you are lovers? If so please explain in simple terms "lover" and any questions asked about it recently. (Well we can still have ultra first that's fine)

But zivel did you start as lover? Are you certain the role is lover?

[Zivel]

Yup 100%. Even mod confirmed. Started the game as a lover with my role pm. Not a vanilla lover though. My partner and I both have abilities as well.

Wish I didn't yell at dd now as his claim has opened up a can of worms that we may need to sort out. Also puts doubt into Ultras claim being false if there are multiple lovers my counter claim means shit.

If we are all lovers then that might be a game mechanic?

[Zivel]

We are both confirmed town and I would go far as to say that all lover pairs are confirmed of the same alignment.

[virus90]

well guess who i am joined with. might explain somethings..
and yes i trust him (ultra for the ones that didnt get it yet).

as to storr: we started as lovers; it was in the role pm, for people interested: the lover pair makes sense according to the theme it is based on.
and ofcourse im not fine with first taking ultra out. since i know he is town.

fped by zivel.
it was mod confirmed with us aswell. didnt want to throw that out yet but dd will now probably be able to confirm that 2.

[Streaker]

well guess who i am joined with. might explain somethings..
and yes i trust him (ultra for the ones that didnt get it yet).

as to storr: we started as lovers; it was in the role pm, for people interested: the lover pair makes sense according to the theme it is based on.
and ofcourse im not fine with first taking ultra out. since i know he is town.

fped by zivel.
it was mod confirmed with us aswell. didnt want to throw that out yet but dd will now probably be able to confirm that 2.

Well that is convenient. Now my top 2 scum are lovers? Great!

Who's up for a little experiment? Let's lynch Ultra and find out if Virus (named scum by many) dies with him.

[virus90]

Fck it, I'm fullclaiming. I am a Lover/Mason.

Gj forcing me to reveal myself, mafia.

I know Lover is a scum safeclaim but fakeclaiming doesn't help us here does it?

Hmmm I am a lover, and my partner and I are confirmed town. And no, you are not my partner....

Scum slip? Tell me why the hell would you pick lovers to fake claim in a group this large of non vanilla? Did you really think there would not be a pair of lovers to counter claim you?

why would ultra (and therefore me, since we are a pair) think there would be another (let alone 2 other) pair of lovers at that point. from your reaction i understand that you where just as surprised i mean else you woulndt have counterclaimed. i dont know but i think mafia might have known about multiple lovers there for im inclined to believe zivel is no mafia, neither do i think dd is since he counterclaimed the zivel counterclaim, which if he didnt would have probably killed ultra. Also i can confirm the mod announcement, we had it in our QT 2, that lovers are the same allignement which in my book clears zivel.

streaker???, there is a shit ton of new information out there and what do you do? immediatly push for continueing the lynch on ultra. the whole discussion of the implacations of the new information has yet to start and all you want is lynch.

So since zivel gained creds in my opinion, and streaker really wants to get this over with ASAP, without much discussion.
unvote vote streaker

[strike wolf]

I...ummm...what?

Well this has been an interesting page. I was pretty much ready to vote ultra by the time I read Zivel's counter claim but well DD. I really not even sure what to make of the third supposed lover group. For now I would recommend not revealing DD's lover or Zivel's lover (Different scenarios but Zivel seems town to me for the counter claim and will be difficult enough to protect by himself, DD right now is more tied up with Ultra and Virus as I will explain). As fo reads, I admit it is awfully tempting to vote for Virus or Ultra right now but I think we need confirmation or denial from Zivel and/or dd about what Virus and Ultra saying makes sense. It is an important decision as DD is caught up in it too, in that if Ultra and virus turn up town, I am inclined to believe that dd is town as well(even if this was a daring scum counter claim by Zivel it would be useless for DD to also counter claim), but if it turns out that Ultra and Virus are lying than I am more likely to believe that DD's claim could have been a rash second claim to try to save a scum buddy.

[strike wolf]

Scenarios:

1. We lynch Ultra and he is scum but not a lover:

a. We are down one scum.
b. Virus is confirmed Scum for tomorrow
c. DD's alignment is in doubt.
d. Zivel is all but confirmed townie.

Benefit ratio: High
detriment: Low

2. We lynch ultra and he is scum and a lover:

a. We are down two scum
b. DD's role is in doubt
c. Zivel is all but confirmed town

Benefit: Very high
Detriment: Low

3. We lynch ultra and he and virus were town lovers:

a. We are down two townies not including what happens over night.
b. Zivel is likely town but not as likely as in scenario 1 or 2.
c. DD is likely town.

Benefit: Low
Detriment: High

Reward for Scenario 1-3: High
Risk for Scenario 1-3: High

4. We decide to not lynch Ultra and Virus

a. Cop investigates one of them and comes back with results. We now have fairly reliable information if the cop's action is successful (slight chance of tampering).
i. Ultra/Virus turn up town (see scenario 3 minus deaths) Benefit: Moderate. Detriment: Moderate
ii. Ultra/Virus turn up scum (see scenarios 1 & 2) Benefit: High. Detriment: low to moderate
b. Cop is directed and loses slight effectiveness.

Reward: Low
Risk: Low

Of course there are all kinds of other factors. Like how mafia might react in each scenario. for instance in a situation where Ultra and Virus are town and we decide to leave it to the cop (minimize possible impact of framing or busdriving as unless mafia has both, these are less likely to be a factor when mafia doesn't know which of the two are going to be investigated and at best take the 50/50 shot). Mafia knowing that they turn up town might decide to target them anyways knowing that town won't be able to protect both or they might go for Zivel (or DD in the imo unlikely case that Zivel is scum but DD town) knowing that it would be very difficult for town to protect all three or even two out of the three without organizing it. The counter to this of course would be to organize that the doctor protects _____, the Jailer protects _____ and any third protective role should protect ______. And there would still be holes because we can't depend on there being three protective roles in this game and if there were we are essentially utilizing all of them to one area (while leaving the possibility of unknown lovers open) and leaving the rest of town exposed. So scenarios 1-3 make more sense in the sense of not over-commiting protective roles and Scenario 4 makes more sense in terms of lowering the risk level of possibly lynching two towns in one shot.

More I could say but I am running low on time. Hopefully that makes things seem clearer and not more confusing because to be honest...I don't feel like I made the situation all that much clearer.

[virus90]

let me clear something for you, i see how you get that but im pretty sure we dont both die if we get killed. its not at all that i want you to encourage to kill ultra or me. but just to point out. so the scenarios are a bit different. i kind of think the other lovers can confirm this, and when you think of it. if there are that many lovers it would be a bit to easy for mafia i guess. i mean we got 3 lovers who claimed. some people clearly arent lovers due to there not understanding some of the details lovers would understand, but maybe there is a 4th pair, who knows, at this point not much surprises me.

im all for scenario 5 its: not lynch ultra nor me.
i think there is more then enough day left to hunt some scum. besides people; think for a second, take a breath clear your mind and get rid off the premises, try to make sense of the information now known and look back and see if things said make (more) sense now, i got the feeling people forgot why they are on ultra or me in the first place, bit tunnel visioned because the conversation is filled only with this topic. for instance why are people suspicious of me? : because i spoke my opinion (knowledge) that ultra is not scum, its either the worst mafia play ever and mafia only concists of 2 guys, any other case you generally just leave the fallen man and continue without him, i have voted my own mafia mate before and i know most of you did aswell. im around to long here to make that mistake.

at the moment mafia is having a field day at how they are totally being ignored.
got more then enough day left, try to make something of it please...

[virus90]

ok on rereading first sentence is not that clear due to punctutaion. so let me try again:
i see how you get that (referring to strike thinking both lovers die), but im pretty sure we dont both die if we (referrring to me OR ultra) gets killed.

[strike wolf]

ok on rereading first sentence is not that clear due to punctutaion. so let me try again:
i see how you get that (referring to strike thinking both lovers die), but im pretty sure we dont both die if we (referrring to me OR ultra) gets killed.

If that is true than you aren't lovers (the very definition of lovers in mafia is that when one dies, they both die either immediately or through some delay) and if you aren't lovers than this scenario is even stranger.

[strike wolf]

ebwop: I also suggest you go back and look at the full details of the case on you.

[virus90]

well lets hear the other 2 lovers and see who is right?

[virus90]

and dont you think thats a bit to easy for mafia? lets assume that there are 3 lovers. and 1 of them is mafia. 2 kills --> 4 town deaths for that reason a mislynch on one out of 6 lovers -> 2 deaths.
6/17 (or more) are lovers. this game would go south pretty quickly then.
but well thats just me trying to make a point here. but since im obviously mafia according to the bunch of you, my logic is just mafia trying to save themselfs. (Sarcasm intended)

strike your immediatly saying im lying and that we are not lovers because they always die together. Unless you are a lover yourself dont you think you should wait with that judgement untill one of the other 2 either confirms or denies this?
you guys really want to hang us dont you?

[Streaker]

@ Virus, OMGUS much? You are just backing up the dude i've been going after the entire day.
I'm not saying we should lynch without argument here, and I agree there is plenty to be discussed before a lynch. I will grant that I have not yet contributed to this new discussion yet, but I have stated which course of action I would like to take. I will even state that if I see a wagon rising quickly now on Ultra i'd unvote to get more discussion until deadline.

In strike's post that would be option 1. (Going through quickly here i'll reread when time tomorrow).

[strike wolf]

The fact that there are other lovers to confirm or deny is part of the reason I am calling the situation strange not scummy. Yes you are right, 3 lovers is strange. It is part of the reason this whole situation is strange and possibly scummy. It is a part of the reason that you and Ultra are possibly lying in my eyes and why this situation needs to get straightened out soon. It's also why Scenario 5: let everyone be and try to work other cases, isn't really a valid option. There are too many players (4 not including any unknown lovers involved) involved in this weird situation to just let it be without at least investigating someone involved with it. Zivel being investigated doesn't tell us anything if he pops up town (scum would be a different matter as it would dash his counter claim against a rock) nor does DD if he pops up scum or town. You and Ultra tell us a lot whether you turn up town or scum. Does this mean you should be lynched? Not necessarily and I have yet to vote you. Does it mean you need to be looked at in some shape or form? Hell yes.