Balance Not Included Mafia 3/12 End Game: Balance. Town Wins

[StorrZerg]

Yeah... my role seems pretty stupid if any anti town just fake claims. If it does trigger, it would prove myself with out a doubt.

[jonty125]

A couple of questions Storr.

You targetted yourself N1, does that mean if you die on any night information on the killer will show up in the day post? Or is it one night only you have to target the soon to be deceased on the same night as there death?
Also, do you have any idea what information you would receive?

[Metsfanmax]

Yeah... my role seems pretty stupid if any anti town just fake claims. If it does trigger, it would prove myself with out a doubt.

It is also a conveniently unconfirmable role.

[StorrZerg]

Define confirm able. The way I see it, it is mod confirmed information. It's not tracker, watcher, medic, doc etc which cannot be confirmed. So this claim is far from convenient. I'd probably make up something a bit more tastefull if I was mafia.


Thing is, no on has counter claimed information about me. No cop check, no tracker. I know I wasn't role blocked. At least 1 person was.

@jonty no lasting effects. Odd question to ask. To answer what information, role name and role.

[StorrZerg]

ebwop. and by not confirmed, they cannot be hard confirmed with just 1 days of night actions, with 2 night kills.

Seriously with how much doubt people have on me today, and how oblivious i was to what the day start was going to be like, how has no one brought out any "damning information via role" want to know why? because there is none.

Also since we just want to play the game of, claim and if the claim is good or not we lynch you. Why don't we mass claim...

Hell the one thing my role confirms is that there is ways to prevent night kill, in the way of a personal protection (vet, bulletproof, treestump) or that a medic save, body gaurd, etc.

[pancakemix]

myself. Didn't expect to live the night since I pushed so hard on confirmed scum.

This is either bull or highly pretentious and I shudder to think which is worse, because the latter suggests you

1. Didn't see a problem with the immediate about face for really no reason at all.
2. Think that mafia would kill you based on you pushing a D1 case. I honestly still don't know if you're owning or disowning the virus lynch, despite you not being on it and your case not being the deciding factor

Define confirm able. The way I see it, it is mod confirmed information. It's not tracker, watcher, medic, doc etc which cannot be confirmed. So this claim is far from convenient. I'd probably make up something a bit more tastefull if I was mafia.

Meaning it's not easy to verify like, say, a vig. You likely only have one more shot to use it if there are two kills, and that's hoping you hit it right. Almost any of those roles could be confirmed depending on who's willing to volunteer information about it.

And maybe you'd pick a nicer role if you were scum to incentivize us not to lynch you, but often in those shoes I find the answer is something more elegant. From personal experience, oftentimes it's something close to the truth (me in Angels and Demons Mafia, virus in this game) or it's something just believable enough to squeak by (me in SSBB, where I claimed lyncher on a long-confirmed town to swing him toward the lynch I wanted him to). The best choice for a mafia claim probably isn't supercool.com, but it's certainly enough to save his skin in the clutch.

[StorrZerg]

So then pcm, who do you believe made the largest contribution to get virus lynched?

2. I am 100% owning the virus lynch. I put most of my effort of scum hunting on him day 1. Every time he posted, i hammered him, i pushed reason made case. Even if the original was not a good reason for someone to be lynched, it was 100% good enough to pressure him. You even agreed with the early pressure reason. I made multiple pushes on him because i kept feeling he was scum. I honestly feel the most damning thing he said was "well i wanted to lay low so that the pressure would move else where, because i know defending myself a ton would just get me lynched" He then proceeds to follow his statement, of only making wrong statements, failing to follow the game, not reading people, into a forced claim on himself. He made a claim that i felt had potential to prove itself. (couple that with my ability to watch a kill) If he had made some indication, i would have been able to either prove or disprove him. My role directly correlates with why i pulled some pressure off virus because of his claim and tried to lynch DJ.

well... vig shot, was someone who could confirm. Who was lynched because several people who voted him AFTER the claim DID NOT LIKE the claim, on a role THAT COULD BE confirmed....

Not really, A cop claims green on someone, mafia could easily do this because they know alignments. Doc cannot be easily confirmed either. Tracker, watcher, all require 2 people to confirm. Tracker watches someone says they didnt do anything, other person agrees or disputes it. Watcher is the same, either he saw no one visit (and no one counter) or he saw someone (and a confirm)

If i had a role that was easy to confirm, i probably would have outed it sooner, called you all donkeys, and started the game on track to lynch mafia. Hell i wish i had the epic mafia role of town crier, that has the ability to send msgs to the town via the mod.

Again, just because i can and do push multiple people, doesn't mean when i pulled off virus i wasn't ready to hammer him when he failed to contribute. I wasn't allowed to hammer virus, so i was unable to prove that i would. There is now some doubt in peoples mind that i would have left a nolynch day 1, which is honestly preposterous.

[pancakemix]

So then pcm, who do you believe made the largest contribution to get virus lynched?

Look, I'm not denying your part in it. My point is that if virus claims differently, I think more people back off. Heck, even if he claims Filthy Larry, his actual role name, I probably consider it more carefully given the knowledge that it's a play on Dirty Harry, who is a good guy (though not a "good guy"). That example may not play that way to all, but it's a question of how the claim is couched.

My role directly correlates with why i pulled some pressure off virus because of his claim and tried to lynch DJ.

See, I don't buy this logic, because it relies on you picking his target correctly. And before you say you still would have targeted yourself, let me point out that:

1. You looked far too townish prior to the flip for me to think he'd target you.
2. You were pushing hard on him, then dropped of post-claim. If anything, you're an asset to him in that scenario.

So let's say we don't include you in that scenario then. Who's the straightforward choice? I don't think there is one. So that's a 1/9 chance of actually verifying virus? Those aren't great odds. I have a hard time believing you, with all the thought you put into this game, would take those odds.

Not really, A cop claims green on someone, mafia could easily do this because they know alignments. Doc cannot be easily confirmed either. Tracker, watcher, all require 2 people to confirm. Tracker watches someone says they didnt do anything, other person agrees or disputes it. Watcher is the same, either he saw no one visit (and no one counter) or he saw someone (and a confirm)

That was exactly my point.

Again, just because i can and do push multiple people, doesn't mean when i pulled off virus i wasn't ready to hammer him when he failed to contribute. I wasn't allowed to hammer virus, so i was unable to prove that i would. There is now some doubt in peoples mind that i would have left a nolynch day 1, which is honestly preposterous.

Coulda shoulda woulda. You can posture all you want, what matters is you didn't and I can't know if you actually would or wouldn't have, which is only a preposterous question if one presupposes you are town, which is unwise by all accounts especially considering your post about flipping.

Everyone needs to hop on dj wagon now.
no one has counter claimed being a vig, likely that Virus is real. We only have roughly 6 hours.

Start moving your votes. Anyone still voting virus for day 1 early stuff is a donkey.
Hell i was the lead pusher on virus AND IM NOT PUSHING HIM ANY MORE.

Im going to keep logs of anyone i see viewing this forum, and failing to post.

Everything about this stinks to high heaven. The commanding, the bullying, the policing, the yelling, you name it. Tell me why, based on this, I should presuppose that you are town. Not because you said you'd hammer after this vote didn't go your way, since that post came with a conditional regarding virus posting (which he did). There is far too much vehemence in this for me to accept what you say you thought or would do as fact on its face.

[StorrZerg]

Responding to my last quote and those comments.

Why did I want to hold people acountable? Because I didn't want people checking in and not voicing their opinion if virus didn't flip mafia.

Do you disagree with the statement that people voting virus for early day 1 stuff is bad this late in the vote?

This was also just 1 post of many in the end of day 1.
I was not defending virus because I thought his alignment was town. I was pulling some pressure off him because I felt his ability could be proved.

In hindsight yes the post marks me bad.

Lastly it's a really big conspiracy that I had this all set up from day 1, 0 talking to virus pregame. Forced his claim, and then try to hero mode save him.

I'm done defending. Going to use the rest of my time to present detailed reads on every single one of you.

Maybe that will give some of you donkeys something to go with in the night, or something to talk about on day 3, besides the universal "well we all thought he was scum for pulling off virus" as of this point no one is allowed to take credit for not pushing me today. Isn't that a bit strange, all 8 people happy with the current lynch.

Hammering me early before I can finish reads is a gross miss use of the day. But hey "storr probably would put this much time into these reads regardless of his alignment" to that i say, you as town have nothing to lose.

[StorrZerg]

@iron butterfly early day 2, you state I'm not high on your scum list. You have 2 people above me. Why are you not pressuring them? Also why don't you pressure them now?

[StorrZerg]

In this case it's not scummy that he forgot to read the rules, it's just silly

I couldn't agree more.

Vote StorrZerg for this insane and baseless wagon. "Because he was scum last game" is better reasoning for voting someone than what has been thrown out at this point.

Would like to re point out some one who actually hard defended virus super early. And continued to push me while I pushed virus.

He also added no further content to the game on day 1 besides pushing me and defending virus

[StorrZerg]

StorrZerg's vote is seriously rubbish,

Now virus failed to read OP

this makes me think he is scum

reading the OP and been scum are independent of each other. so my vote is now a serious vote on Zerg.

Also, virus' comment was a joke before D1 started, so in my eyes, you can't read anything from it, and I believe that by trying to construct a case from said post is scummy.

Yet another hard defend on virus early on before a wagon was on virus, with a push on myself. He is even wrong about not being able to read the joke. Since alignments had been handed out, a legitimate read could be made.

[StorrZerg]

Jonty has also not really commented on the rest of the game. Save for a small comment on pcm and mets. He has no current scum reads beside myself. It will be interesting who he "suddenly" pushes tomorrow. There had been plenty of bad cases day 1. Yet he picks the only one on virus to talk about.

He is not playing the game. He seems perfectly content with the current lynch, even asking imo a mafia pointed question if my power stays on my target. Only people with killing power ask about this imo.

[StorrZerg]

Mets should also be considered for the defending of virus. How ever I still stand by my opinion of his actions are not defending virus, rather attacking weak accusations. I still have mets as town.

[StorrZerg]

Streaker please check in. Been 2 days, a lot has been said, and you have not commented.

I have you as town mostly for day 1 play.

[Metsfanmax]

Define confirm able. The way I see it, it is mod confirmed information. It's not tracker, watcher, medic, doc etc which cannot be confirmed.

Sorry, I should have said it's not disprovable. If we never see any info show up in the scene, you can just claim it's because you targeted the wrong person. Also, even if the info shows up, that doesn't prove you are town.

Yet another hard defend on virus early on before a wagon was on virus, with a push on myself. He is even wrong about not being able to read the joke. Since alignments had been handed out, a legitimate read could be made.

If defending virus is scummy, then you should be lynched immediately for your late push on D1. Staying on that argument seems stupid for you.

[StorrZerg]

Yes it proves my alignment. Why would a mafia power out mod confirmed information in a day post lol.

[StorrZerg]

The difference mets, my deal with virus end of day 1 has to do with a claim. James does not. He is out right defending virus before a large wagon. And pushing me as scum for pushing virus. There is a very clear difference.

[Metsfanmax]

Yes it proves my alignment. Why would a mafia power out mod confirmed information in a day post lol.

If you're talking about the fakeclaims, then WIFOM. Mafia would do that to "prove" their alignment. It's also not that much of a gift. But I was talking about the town crier stuff, so I'm confused what you mean.

The difference mets, my deal with virus end of day 1 has to do with a claim. James does not. He is out right defending virus before a large wagon. And pushing me as scum for pushing virus. There is a very clear difference.

The difference is why you look bad. The rest of us saw through a poor claim and voted correctly. We based it on actual information. Your push was based on a joke before D1 started. You voted incorrectly when it actually mattered.

[StorrZerg]

Sorry can you explain why a 1 shot town vig named batman is a bad claim again? In a small game

[Metsfanmax]

Sorry can you explain why a 1 shot town vig named batman is a bad claim again? In a small game

Not going to do your homework for you. Go read the earlier posts.

(At the very worst, we got as lucky as you, so your case is still going nowhere.)

[StorrZerg]

O and anyone is welcome to look at these 2 games.


here i am as town in the breaking bad game. 2 Factions of mafia. See who i push, how i push.
viewtopic.php?f=610&t=202345

Here i am as a mafia, in a 2 mafia faction game of 15 people. Please take a gander and see how i manipulate town for the win. (focus is on forcing jonty to claim day 1 and lynching him day 2, he was a townie role) (you can also see what i claim)
viewtopic.php?f=610&t=203358

You don't have to read either game, All you have to do is sort by author, instead of by post date. And skim for the claims and my reactions. (or you can read everything thats fine) Pending on how much time you have.

I'm not giving exact "posts" for you to look at. I can do all the work for you, but some people might say i'm biased.

[Metsfanmax]

I'm tired of this. You've earned my vote. Even if you are town, I can't let go someone going so far as to actively push meta by relying on previous games. It's just poor form. I'll wait to apply it for a little while I guess because there's still some life left in this day.

[StorrZerg]

Sorry can you explain why a 1 shot town vig named batman is a bad claim again? In a small game

Not going to do your homework for you. Go read the earlier posts.

(At the very worst, we got as lucky as you, so your case is still going nowhere.)

Not sure why its so hard for you to re-explain, or even link your own post but thats fine i'll link it.

Now, regarding virus. Suppose we don't lynch him. Statistically, if we ask him to use his one-shot vig, he's going to hit town and then we've traded a power role for a known VT, which mafia will then not target any longer, making him useless to us except as a vote. The problem is, if he is mafia, mafia will just direct their NK to someone and virus will claim it was his one shot, and then he's "confirmed" as town which is a bad situation for us to be in. Alternatively, if he waits and really is town, then mafia will likely just kill him now anyway.

Now, suppose we do lynch him. If he flips mafia, great. If he flips town, then we've got a problem because we'll lose a second townie at night. One minor redemption is that we could always analyze the votes today for mafia.

This makes this a tough proposition; there's potentially bad results for town in either case. I feel that lynching virus is slightly better on balance because the prospect of having him confirmed as town when he's really not is a very scary one in the long term. I think this is just the price you pay for a claim like he's given. If he's town, it sucks for him, but we have to worry about what's best for the town. So, vote virus

It seem to me, if he really was a town vig that was 1 shot. You would have lynched him any ways over principle. So i ask again. What specifically didn't you like about his claim.

In all your posts about him and his claim, you fail to say that his claim sounds scummy or fake. It really sounds like you lynched virus on 1. principle because of his claim 2. to secure a lynch.
i don't think either of those reasons are scummy, but they are not alignment indicative regarding your feelings on virus.

fp mets

[StorrZerg]

I'm tired of this. You've earned my vote. Even if you are town, I can't let go someone going so far as to actively push meta by relying on previous games. It's just poor form. I'll wait to apply it for a little while I guess because there's still some life left in this day.

Please thats hardly the case. I used meta in breaking bad and you didn't strike me down then. Why should you have a different opinion in it now.

you can just ignore it and say it doesn't matter.

You are actually pushing on me with this statement, not because of any alignment indicative feelings (you don't think i'm scum with this post you just made, you clearly state its poor form) Its policy to you. That is wrong to push the game.


meta can and is used to make cases on people regarding alignment. People do link threads of previous games, saying here we go here is a town anark. "here is a case of scum anark, see how he was really inactive most of the time, only throwing on votes right here, and only pushing 1 person at a time, not reading anyone else in the game to avoid people"

You might still think it's poor form, but that hardly makes it "illegal" or alignment indicative to those who reach their own conclusions if they so wish to read the threads.