Cleared josko.ri CLEARED[es]

[king achilles]

Was there any collusion between the players on how the game should end?
Has josko.ri intentionally missed any turns or held any games hostage or delayed any games that should have ended already?
If not, then I don't see how this is similar to the other past case.

[chapcrap]

Was there any collusion between the players on how the game should end?
Has josko.ri intentionally missed any turns or held any games hostage or delayed any games that should have ended already?
If not, then I don't see how this is similar to the other past case.

I don't have any evidence to prove that. It does seem like a couple of the players could have been prolonging games to help, but I obviously have no evidence to prove it. They seem similar to me, regardless, but I'm not gonna be fussed if you don't think so. It's something done on a similar scale and shorter time frame from what TheCrown did.

[king achilles]

If this has something to do with the monthly scoreboard, perhaps this is something similar to the freestyle loophole back then when people could make double turns. It's not considered a cheat but it gives an unfair advantage when freestyle players do that. Eventually, a block had to be implemented so that this will be stopped.

The monthly scoreboard is intended to give recognition to those who have made achievements and have been active in the games on a monthly basis. Unfortunately, this may have also resulted in people trying to find ways on how quicken or delay ending games. If you have 24 hours to take your turn and you do make use of that 24 hour time frame, that will not be be cheating. There is no obligation for players to take their turns as fast as they can either. If it's a casual game, then you can take your turns when you are most comfortable. We do have the rules to guide us but there are grey areas that is stuck in neither being wrong or right.

[chapcrap]

If this has something to do with the monthly scoreboard, perhaps this is something similar to the freestyle loophole back then when people could make double turns. It's not considered a cheat but it gives an unfair advantage when freestyle players do that. Eventually, a block had to be implemented so that this will be stopped.

The monthly scoreboard is intended to give recognition to those who have made achievements and have been active in the games on a monthly basis. Unfortunately, this may have also resulted in people trying to find ways on how quicken or delay ending games. If you have 24 hours to take your turn and you do make use of that 24 hour time frame, that will not be be cheating. There is no obligation for players to take their turns as fast as they can either. If it's a casual game, then you can take your turns when you are most comfortable. We do have the rules to guide us but there are grey areas that is stuck in neither being wrong or right.

I wouldn't argue with you on this. I don't know if it's as bad as the freestyle loophole though.

[betiko]

If this has something to do with the monthly scoreboard, perhaps this is something similar to the freestyle loophole back then when people could make double turns. It's not considered a cheat but it gives an unfair advantage when freestyle players do that. Eventually, a block had to be implemented so that this will be stopped.

The monthly scoreboard is intended to give recognition to those who have made achievements and have been active in the games on a monthly basis. Unfortunately, this may have also resulted in people trying to find ways on how quicken or delay ending games. If you have 24 hours to take your turn and you do make use of that 24 hour time frame, that will not be be cheating. There is no obligation for players to take their turns as fast as they can either. If it's a casual game, then you can take your turns when you are most comfortable. We do have the rules to guide us but there are grey areas that is stuck in neither being wrong or right.

I see no problem with what jjosko did; but what is yoour position concerning late month point dumping? i guess people will find ways to make it unprovable. the normal monthly ranking encorages doing what josko did, but the most improved ranking encourages to point dump. why would you need these 2 rankings at the same time?

[king achilles]

Unless you are the one who is doing the manipulating, who does? If you have ideas in providing a solution to an issue, the Suggestions forum is the place to go. C&A can address cheating in games.

[betiko]

I certainly do not want people manipulating the scoreboard. Unless you the one who is doing the manipulating, who does? If you have ideas in providing a solution to an issue, the Suggestions forum is the place to go. C&A can address cheating in games.

wow i feel honoured, you think that if i'm a colonel it's because i point dumped!
I placed in the suggestion forum a suggestion to simply remove that most improved scoreboard. and i'm not here to give you names, i guess you guys can figure for yourselves on the most improved scoreboard how suspicious some point ranges are at the begining of january for some good players, and you can also see how in feb some good players will beat some new records of low score. As I'm saying I'm not blaming them, you guys have put in place a scoreboard with prices that you can only bave chances to win if you start super low. do you really think someone can start the month at 1000 and end at 2500 without any manipulation for example? why tempt people with prizes to have borderline conducts?

[universalchiro]

And this was also practice with every other player including Moonchild. I let every player do their turns as slow/fast as they want. If Moonchild or anyone else chose to play his turns slower it is his free choice.
If I know that my friend is going for his high score, I would also slow down my turn. For example I did it in this game by playing 20 hours in last turn:

Game 13144144
2013-09-13 12:11:54 - universalchiro: wait as long as you can before taking turn. I'm enjoying 2nd place

So did in your opinion universalchiro also abused rules because he asked me to play my turn as longer as possible because he is enjoying his 2nd place?

Game 13144144 Josko you gave a partial quote to support your argument, but you missed the line above the script you quoted which gives you my last hidden region in a fog game to expedite the conclusion of the game:
"2013-09-11 18:13:26 - universalchiro: Im iN 4th 3... I missed to speed up thiNgs..."
The spirit of the Leader board is to determine who is the best, you had the highest score before and after this score manipulation stunt. No one doubts your abilities, what some of the players are questioning are some of your tactics. From the accusation of you taking everyone's turns in quad games to this stunt of asking opponents to "Real time" winning games and while you delay losing games on a scale of 140+ simultaneous games. The result was an artificial rise of your score by not letting your games evolve in a natural time line.

Your latest stunt does seem within the confines of the rules, but when you artificially raise your score by 1,000+ points, people will focus and scrutinize your every move. Players were already watching you because you hold the Conqueror position, more in respect versus, not trying to catch you doing something. If you pulled this stunt with 5 games, no one says anything, but when you artificially raise your score 1,000+ points, this draws criticisms.

So I would say you are guilty of manipulating your score, but aren't we all guilty of this on a much smaller level? Yes, we have all taken winning turns asap and losing turns waited till later, but everyone does this on a small scale, not to the extent you just did. So I would vote give the guy a pass, he hasn't violated any written rule.

[EBConquer]

I'm in agreement here w/ most and feel that there's certainly nothing here to see. Josko didn't cheat, he's got 24 hours to take his turn, period. that's the way it's always been and there's been no hostage taken.

Of course there's a difference between what he did and the Crown did. Besides other things, I was always under the assumption that it's always advantageous to lose first in terms of score. I mean, look at me... I got 30 games going with 25 of them being losses. Don't worry, i'll play the losing ones first. Meaning, I'll just start from the top and work my way down without skipping a game.

[jltile1]

I guess the big question, is this gross abuse of the gaming site? Manipulation of the score board which I think he did do. I will say he did not break any rules as far as I see it, but he did purposely slow his loosing games. And played the others a lot faster. He truly cannot be punished, unless this kind of playing is considered manipulation of the scoreboard, and to my knowledge is not a crime ( on CC). This should be moved along and maybe the admin makes a decision on future people doing this. There will be more now, as Ollie said he can do this as well and get to Conquer very easily, but he is a little more classy than that.....

[ChrisPond]

I certainly do not want people manipulating the scoreboard. Unless you the one who is doing the manipulating, who does? If you have ideas in providing a solution to an issue, the Suggestions forum is the place to go. C&A can address cheating in games.

wow i feel honoured, you think that if i'm a colonel it's because i point dumped!
I placed in the suggestion forum a suggestion to simply remove that most improved scoreboard. and i'm not here to give you names, i guess you guys can figure for yourselves on the most improved scoreboard how suspicious some point ranges are at the begining of january for some good players, and you can also see how in feb some good players will beat some new records of low score. As I'm saying I'm not blaming them, you guys have put in place a scoreboard with prices that you can only bave chances to win if you start super low. do you really think someone can start the month at 1000 and end at 2500 without any manipulation for example? why tempt people with prizes to have borderline conducts?

I read this and then had to go look at the most improved scoreboard. Sure enough, the guy at the top of it...krylis or whatever his name is could be guilty of point dumping at the end of December. He was a rather new player when he joined a poly tournament and I played him in 5 games. He deadbeated those games right at the end of the month of December as well as a lot of other games. It appears he did not time some of them so well as they did not end until the first week of January. But he deadbeated quite a few 1 v 1 games that helped reduce his score. It appears he did not take any turns from around the 27th of December to around the 4th of January (could be wrong as I just did a quick search). I know in my games he started them with around 1050 points and when he deadbeated out he was down to around 850 or less. I could easily guess he was on vacation without Internet access but now that I see people point dumping at the end of the month I wonder if this is what he did to see if he could rise up the most improved score board?

As Betiko says, I guess manipulating the scoreboard is something that is the new norm.

[jltile1]

I certainly do not want people manipulating the scoreboard. Unless you the one who is doing the manipulating, who does? If you have ideas in providing a solution to an issue, the Suggestions forum is the place to go. C&A can address cheating in games.

wow i feel honoured, you think that if i'm a colonel it's because i point dumped!
I placed in the suggestion forum a suggestion to simply remove that most improved scoreboard. and i'm not here to give you names, i guess you guys can figure for yourselves on the most improved scoreboard how suspicious some point ranges are at the begining of january for some good players, and you can also see how in feb some good players will beat some new records of low score. As I'm saying I'm not blaming them, you guys have put in place a scoreboard with prices that you can only bave chances to win if you start super low. do you really think someone can start the month at 1000 and end at 2500 without any manipulation for example? why tempt people with prizes to have borderline conducts?

I read this and then had to go look at the most improved scoreboard. Sure enough, the guy at the top of it...krylis or whatever his name is could be guilty of point dumping at the end of December. He was a rather new player when he joined a poly tournament and I played him in 5 games. He deadbeated those games right at the end of the month of December as well as a lot of other games. It appears he did not time some of them so well as they did not end until the first week of January. But he deadbeated quite a few 1 v 1 games that helped reduce his score. It appears he did not take any turns from around the 27th of December to around the 4th of January (could be wrong as I just did a quick search). I know in my games he started them with around 1050 points and when he deadbeated out he was down to around 850 or less. I could easily guess he was on vacation without Internet access but now that I see people point dumping at the end of the month I wonder if this is what he did to see if he could rise up the most improved score board?

As Betiko says, I guess manipulating the scoreboard is something that is the new norm.

way off topic just saying

[Gabriel13]

this is not about thecrown or josko. this is about a very stupid idea to give prizes to monthly leaders (even if josko doesn't appear to care about it but just wanted a high score). This whole thing smells like rotten fish since day 1.
i get that bigwham's intentions were good, but he didn't think it thourgh; mostly with that absolutely silly "most improved leaderboard". There will not be a single month where 9/10 of those monthly rankings will have done something somewhat tainted.

Well, I don't believe that last part for this month. In fact, I know for a fact that NoS nor I did anything to cheat our way to the top making it invalid
I also don't think that KoG or Mage did anything either, so that's almost half that didn't do anything to get to the top!

[EBConquer]

I guess the big question, is this gross abuse of the gaming site? Manipulation of the score board...

Good point and meant to touch down on that. Aren't we "manipulating" the scoreboard every time we win or lose a game regardless of which we play first in our allotted 24hrs (without hostage holding)?

--------------

I also believe that had he have done it the opposite way like others, e.g. losing all then winning.... then he would be MUCH higher in the scoreboard at the end of the day than he is now. This little stunt probably costed him about 300-400 points, no?

I just don't see what the problem is here. If the rules and unwritten rules need to change or address the recent issues.... then lets do it.

[betiko]

I certainly do not want people manipulating the scoreboard. Unless you the one who is doing the manipulating, who does? If you have ideas in providing a solution to an issue, the Suggestions forum is the place to go. C&A can address cheating in games.

wow i feel honoured, you think that if i'm a colonel it's because i point dumped!
I placed in the suggestion forum a suggestion to simply remove that most improved scoreboard. and i'm not here to give you names, i guess you guys can figure for yourselves on the most improved scoreboard how suspicious some point ranges are at the begining of january for some good players, and you can also see how in feb some good players will beat some new records of low score. As I'm saying I'm not blaming them, you guys have put in place a scoreboard with prices that you can only bave chances to win if you start super low. do you really think someone can start the month at 1000 and end at 2500 without any manipulation for example? why tempt people with prizes to have borderline conducts?

I read this and then had to go look at the most improved scoreboard. Sure enough, the guy at the top of it...krylis or whatever his name is could be guilty of point dumping at the end of December. He was a rather new player when he joined a poly tournament and I played him in 5 games. He deadbeated those games right at the end of the month of December as well as a lot of other games. It appears he did not time some of them so well as they did not end until the first week of January. But he deadbeated quite a few 1 v 1 games that helped reduce his score. It appears he did not take any turns from around the 27th of December to around the 4th of January (could be wrong as I just did a quick search). I know in my games he started them with around 1050 points and when he deadbeated out he was down to around 850 or less. I could easily guess he was on vacation without Internet access but now that I see people point dumping at the end of the month I wonder if this is what he did to see if he could rise up the most improved score board?

As Betiko says, I guess manipulating the scoreboard is something that is the new norm.

way off topic just saying

still somewhat related. the josko case is pretty much closed, everyone agrees that he doesn't deserve any punishment, and since KA is reading this I see no reason not to expose the problems and repetitive abuses of all types we might see reported in this forum due to the new scoreboards.

[betiko]

this is not about thecrown or josko. this is about a very stupid idea to give prizes to monthly leaders (even if josko doesn't appear to care about it but just wanted a high score). This whole thing smells like rotten fish since day 1.
i get that bigwham's intentions were good, but he didn't think it thourgh; mostly with that absolutely silly "most improved leaderboard". There will not be a single month where 9/10 of those monthly rankings will have done something somewhat tainted.

Well, I don't believe that last part for this month. In fact, I know for a fact that NoS nor I did anything to cheat our way to the top making it invalid
I also don't think that KoG or Mage did anything either, so that's almost half that didn't do anything to get to the top!

yes, sorry this month being exceptional because of the battle royales. not sure about mage's score to start the month though

[Gabriel13]

this is not about thecrown or josko. this is about a very stupid idea to give prizes to monthly leaders (even if josko doesn't appear to care about it but just wanted a high score). This whole thing smells like rotten fish since day 1.
i get that bigwham's intentions were good, but he didn't think it thourgh; mostly with that absolutely silly "most improved leaderboard". There will not be a single month where 9/10 of those monthly rankings will have done something somewhat tainted.

Well, I don't believe that last part for this month. In fact, I know for a fact that NoS nor I did anything to cheat our way to the top making it invalid
I also don't think that KoG or Mage did anything either, so that's almost half that didn't do anything to get to the top!

yes, sorry this month being exceptional because of the battle royales. not sure about mage's score to start the month though

Have you seen the games he plays? I can believe it!

[jltile1]

this is not about thecrown or josko. this is about a very stupid idea to give prizes to monthly leaders (even if josko doesn't appear to care about it but just wanted a high score). This whole thing smells like rotten fish since day 1.
i get that bigwham's intentions were good, but he didn't think it thourgh; mostly with that absolutely silly "most improved leaderboard". There will not be a single month where 9/10 of those monthly rankings will have done something somewhat tainted.

Well, I don't believe that last part for this month. In fact, I know for a fact that NoS nor I did anything to cheat our way to the top making it invalid
I also don't think that KoG or Mage did anything either, so that's almost half that didn't do anything to get to the top!

yes, sorry this month being exceptional because of the battle royales. not sure about mage's score to start the month though

Have you seen the games he plays? I can believe it!

Are you guys on topic why post that shit here just saying

[betiko]

What exactly do you want to add to this? It s been discussed in 3 or 4 threads and in all of them people agree that there is nothing against the rules in what he did although it s a grey area.

KA seems to agree on this from what I understand.

It s not like there is much more to add about josko, but there is about future practices of this strategy that will obviously be copied.

[Trevor33]

Was there any collusion between the players on how the game should end?
Has josko.ri intentionally missed any turns or held any games hostage or delayed any games that should have ended already?
If not, then I don't see how this is similar to the other past case.

I don't have any evidence to prove that. It does seem like a couple of the players could have been prolonging games to help, but I obviously have no evidence to prove it. They seem similar to me, regardless, but I'm not gonna be fussed if you don't think so. It's something done on a similar scale and shorter time frame from what TheCrown did.

It's really not. Josko played all his games in time without delaying any win, yes he played his winning games faster, that's not breaking any rules.

The Crown held won games in order to cash in as many point as possible to achieve an artificially high score on completion of all of the games he set up as part of his experiment. After Joskos game were all finished he was back down to where he started, lower actually.

Big difference.

The ONLY punishment The Crown received was that his points were reset to whatever it was at at the start of his experiment and any medals taken away. What punishment are you going to give to Josko? His points back that he lost? This thread and accusation is ridiculous.

[Shannon Apple]

This thread and accusation is ridiculous.

+1000

[iAmCaffeine]

This thread and accusation is ridiculous.

+1000

About as ridiculous as continuing to post in the thread.

[Metsfanmax]

This thread and accusation is ridiculous.

+1000

It's a completely rational thread. We'll never actually know where the line is with "scoreboard manipulation" if the C&A team doesn't set it with precedent.

[Chariot of Fire]

Was it done within the parameters of the game's design? Yes. Players have 24 hours in which to take their turn(s).

Was every game played to the best of each participant's ability? Yes.

Was anyone held hostage? No.

Where it becomes an issue is whether this site wishes for this sort of practice to continue. If they do not then they have to find fault with:

Was it orchestrated to manipulate the scoreboard? Yes

Was there collusion with another player, or did another player knowingly assist in the artificially-inflated score? Yes. Josko's friend and fellow Croatian Moonchild in Game 13900094, Game 13900095 and Game 13900182

So occasionally it's not as black and white as "Did Player X breach the rules?". Akin to the law, intent alone (mens rea) will suffice to warrant prosecution.

Should Josko be punished? No, I don't think so. Should his actions be criticized and deemed not to have been in the spirit of fair play on this site? Yes, most definitely, for then the administrators may use this example, in conjunction with TheCrown's case, to outlaw such deliberate manipulation in future.