Transformation

[degaston]

Was there any public discussion about this change? The only thing I see is a reference to a brief discussion about decaying neutrals, which could have been handled by simply allowing the bonus/decay tag to apply to them as well. What has been implemented seems very complex, and of limited practical use. They've given us a sledge hammer to drive in a thumbtack.

I can't say I fully understand all the implications of it yet, but I do have a lot of questions, comments and concerns:

1. Is there any reason for the <inc> tag to allow both '+'' and '-' when you can have negative values in the amount? That seems completely unnecessary and redundant. I don't really care much for this implementation anyway. It should probably just be an optional tag (eg: <fixed>yes</fixed>) where if it's included then the territory is set to the value, otherwise the value is added to the current number of troops.

2. The <type> tag has combined two features, and limited it's flexibility. I think the type should be either 'turn' or 'round', and there should be optional <firstround> and <lastround> tags to specify when this transformation should start or end.

3. What is the purpose of the general/non-territory form of transformations? Does it just adjust the values of every territory, depending on the <applyto> tag? Are there limitations to the combinations allowed? If not, what happens when you have type 'R' combined with applyto 'S'? Isn't the person who plays at the start of the round always the "playing player", so the transformation would only ever apply to him?

4. In the territory specific form of transformations, what is the meaning of applyto 'O'? Does this mean that the transformation happens on the territory only when the "playing player" does not hold the territory?

Has anyone asked for all this stuff? Is it even practical to use these capabilities, given the limited legend space on most maps? I don't see how this got priority over other things like conditional bombardments, killer neutrals as part of a bonus, decay to neutral, etc. that people would like to include in maps that are currently under development. Even my suggestion for value based continents would have been much simpler to implement, and I was able to give a couple of practical examples for how it could be used.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but it would be nice to have a detailed explanation for how all of the options work, and how they might be used in a map.

[koontz1973]

Degaston, details will be here shortly. Nobodies is getting it all together. As for why this was done, you have to ask the boss man. All I know is that it was started like like my original idea but bW found a way to include a lot more as well. Not every feature will go onto maps but this is a very powerful tool and one that can make maps a lot more interesting. Looking at your map, it might be an idea (will post this later kn the thread) to make the winning condition easier to get.

[isaiah40]

Was there any public discussion about this change? The only thing I see is a reference to a brief discussion about decaying neutrals, which could have been handled by simply allowing the bonus/decay tag to apply to them as well. What has been implemented seems very complex, and of limited practical use. They've given us a sledge hammer to drive in a thumbtack.

I can't say I fully understand all the implications of it yet, but I do have a lot of questions, comments and concerns:

1. Is there any reason for the <inc> tag to allow both '+'' and '-' when you can have negative values in the amount? That seems completely unnecessary and redundant. I don't really care much for this implementation anyway. It should probably just be an optional tag (eg: <fixed>yes</fixed>) where if it's included then the territory is set to the value, otherwise the value is added to the current number of troops.

Did you read the Transforms section of the[Official] XML Guide? If so you would have seen that the <inc> is already optional to use.

2. The <type> tag has combined two features, and limited it's flexibility. I think the type should be either 'turn' or 'round', and there should be optional <firstround> and <lastround> tags to specify when this transformation should start or end.

The type tag is not limited as you say. If you want it to execute before round 20 you would write the code as such:

Code: Select all

<transform>
<type>RG20</type>
...
</transform>


After round 20 it would be:

Code: Select all

<transform>
<type>RL20</type>
...
<transform>

And to start it at the beginning of round 20 would be as such:

Code: Select all

<transform>
<type>R20</type
...
</transform>

3. What is the purpose of the general/non-territory form of transformations? Does it just adjust the values of every territory, depending on the <applyto> tag? Are there limitations to the combinations allowed? If not, what happens when you have type 'R' combined with applyto 'S'? Isn't the person who plays at the start of the round always the "playing player", so the transformation would only ever apply to him?

Your last sentence is true, though bigWham would have to answer this. Though if the mapmaker has coded this:

Code: Select all

<transform>
<type>T</type>
<applyto>S</applyto>
<inc>-</inc>
<amount>1</amount>

Then all of the regions of the player who starts the round would decrease by 1. I have to admit that this may be a problem, so let's wait and hear from tnb and bigWham on this particular question.

4. In the territory specific form of transformations, what is the meaning of applyto 'O'? Does this mean that the transformation happens on the territory only when the "playing player" does not hold the territory?

This is pretty self explanatory, the transform is activated on every region except the playing player. e.g. neutrals, and all the other players. How confusing is that?? Whereas if you use the "OP" <applyto> tag then the transform would be activated only on all the other players and not the neutrals.

Has anyone asked for all this stuff? Is it even practical to use these capabilities, given the limited legend space on most maps? I don't see how this got priority over other things like conditional bombardments, killer neutrals as part of a bonus, decay to neutral, etc. that people would like to include in maps that are currently under development. Even my suggestion for value based continents would have been much simpler to implement, and I was able to give a couple of practical examples for how it could be used.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but it would be nice to have a detailed explanation for how all of the options work, and how they might be used in a map.

As koontz mentioned, this is part of his suggestion and bw made this very flexible. It is his plans to expand on the transforms in the future. As a matter of fact, bw has included a conditional tag which will be tested out on the test site that I will be using for my Defend America map. This means that the transform will only be activated if you hold a specific region. Like I said once Defend America gets on the test site we will be testing that feature out.

[degaston]

Did you read the Transforms section of the[Official] XML Guide? If so you would have seen that the <inc> is already optional to use.

I read the guide. My question is, why is minus an option? It doesn't appear to do anything since you can add a negative value.

The type tag is not limited as you say. If you want it to execute before round 20 you would write the code as such:

Code: Select all

<transform>
<type>RG20</type>
...
</transform>


After round 20 it would be:

Code: Select all

<transform>
<type>RL20</type>
...
<transform>

And to start it at the beginning of round 20 would be as such:

Code: Select all

<transform>
<type>R20</type
...
</transform>

What if you want a transformation to be enabled from round 5 through round 10?
And the Type tag is not very clear. Is a number even allowed after the 'R' option, and if so, what is the difference between R and RL?
You say that <type>RL20</type> means start after round 20, and <type>R20</type> means start at the beginning of round 20. So what's the difference between <type>RL20</type> and <type>R21</type>?

Your last sentence is true, though bigWham would have to answer this. Though if the mapmaker has coded this:

Code: Select all

<transform>
<type>T</type>
<applyto>S</applyto>
<inc>-</inc>
<amount>1</amount>

Then all of the regions of the player who starts the round would decrease by 1. I have to admit that this may be a problem, so let's wait and hear from tnb and bigWham on this particular question.

Did you mean <type>R</type>? Wouldn't your example mean that at the start of each player's turn, all of their own troops would decrement by 1? I don't really see how any mapmaker would ever want to use this feature, except possibly for neutrals, and even then, it would probably be better to keep it within the neutral territory tag.

4. In the territory specific form of transformations, what is the meaning of applyto 'O'? Does this mean that the transformation happens on the territory only when the "playing player" does not hold the territory?

This is pretty self explanatory, the transform is activated on every region except the playing player. e.g. neutrals, and all the other players. How confusing is that?? Whereas if you use the "OP" <applyto> tag then the transform would be activated only on all the other players and not the neutrals.

Okay, so if I code:

Code: Select all

<territory>
  <name>Huh?</name>
  <transform>
    <type>T</type>
    <applyto>O</applyto>
    <inc>+</inc>
    <amount>1</amount>
  </transform>
</territory>


What happens when I hold this territory? Do my troops on this territory increment at the start of every opponent's turn, but not on my turn? And If I used OP there instead of O, would there be any difference, since Neutrals don't get a turn? Is it just me, or is this a really strange capability?

As koontz mentioned, this is part of his suggestion and bw made this very flexible. It is his plans to expand on the transforms in the future. As a matter of fact, bw has included a conditional tag which will be tested out on the test site that I will be using for my Defend America map. This means that the transform will only be activated if you hold a specific region. Like I said once Defend America gets on the test site we will be testing that feature out.

I'll be interested to see how you use it. Still, the current XML guide for this feature leaves a lot unexplained.