Wishy-Washy Mafia (7/13) Endgame: Forgiveness (Town Win)

[rishaed]

Vote Count:

kratos644 (3) - Melkor52, benga, Safariguy5
Melkor52 (1) - Nebuchadnezer
benga (2) - kratos644, Jonty125
Flow520 (1) - Hotshot53

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Theres been a lot of discussion and very little changes in the vote count. Ergo, lack of VC's. I have been monitoring, but did not see the need to post daily VC's if it isn't changing. Your WW-maf Mod.

[kratos644]

I meant to do so before so I'll go ahead and unvote. I'll chalk it up to him being new, for now...

[kratos644]

I believe he thought he frustrated me implying I was scum? It's a fairly weak one but oh well. At least safari actually had a case

Fast posted by saf himself. Would you say a doctor has no use because they have to get the same person as the one being killed? From what it appears, I'm essentially the protective role because our threat was recruiters instead of killers. Now that we have one recruiter instead of 2 my role is obviously strengthened

You're using the fallacy of hindsight to defend your role. Your defense hinges on the assumption that we dealt with one of the cult recruiters early. If indeed we had 2 cult recruiters at the beginning of the game, then your role still is near useless. Just conveniently, we happen to deal with one faction almost right off the bat, but that doesn't justify the role balance here.

I think there's a good indicator here of whether or not we have two cult recruiters. The real question here is if anyone was assigned a doctor role (or bodyguard). If they were, then we know we have to have night killing roles (mafia or SKer) which would strongly weaken the 2 cult claim. If nobody claims doctor or bodyguard,then I'd be willing to believe the 2 cult claim.

Also, no worries if you do claim doc or bodyguard, I can at least watch you to prevent the SKer for a night or two and give greg more time to find the scum.

Second off, this is guaranteed to be interesting, but I won't exactly guarantee extended balance.

Every time you try to use balance as part of why you don't buy the whole 2 recruiter thing I just think about this. Do I agree with you that 2 recruiters in a 13 man mafia seems unbalanced? Yeah I certainly do. Do I believe we got lucky in finding the first recruiter so fast which also strengthened my role as a result? Also a yes. The problem lies in the fact that I don't believe the game is supposed to still be balanced. By not promising extended balance, I believe he was definitely leaving the door open for something like this. You said you thought I was a poisoner right? Give it a night see if Greg dies of poison. If so lynch me and town wins easy. I'm still convinced we have a recruiter we're dealing with as opposed to a killing role. Which is why I still see myself as valuable to town because that seems to be our threat at night. (If we somehow have both I think we're screwed.) The only way I could see a killing role is if Neb was right about the offsetting recruit and kill scenario. If that's the case, we'll have no recruitment tonight but instead a kill. I guess we'll see what happens though.

I'm also curious to see if we have a doctor though

[Nebuchadnezer]

Alive:
1. Gregwolf121 - Cop
2.Kratos664 - Recruit stopper
4.Melkor52 - ???
6.Jonty125 - VT
7.Safariguy5 - Watcher
8.Hotshot53 - ???
9.virus90 - VT
11.benga - ???
12.JamesKer1 TWO Flow520 - ???
13.Nebuchadnezer - ???

Dead:
3.AnarkistsdreamI.M.A. Genius Peggy Dow Fanclub Member Nightkilled N1
5.TFOMegan Fox turned Peggy Dow Fanclub President lynched D2.
10.mtamburiniI.M.A. Genius Vanilla Townie has been Modkilled

My suspects are:

1. Melkor
2. Flow
3. Hotshot
4. benga

By simple process of elimination, those four are the obvious choices...So, let's get together and figure our way out of this. We do have a deadline coming up, after all...My vote is on Melkor. Based on his play and posting, I'm comfortable leaving my vote on him. Anyone else want to go along with me, and move this day out of speculation and on to hunting? No matter what happens in the next couple of days, let's keep these four in mind in order to win. I won't direct town actions, but it should be pretty obvious what needs to be done to ensure we keep our roles safe for the longest period. We should have our guy by tomorrow.

[HotShot53]

Alive:
1. Gregwolf121 - Cop
2.Kratos664 - Recruit stopper
4.Melkor52 - ???
6.Jonty125 - VT
7.Safariguy5 - Watcher
8.Hotshot53 - ???
9.virus90 - VT
11.benga - ???
12.JamesKer1 TWO Flow520 - ???
13.Nebuchadnezer - ???

Dead:
3.AnarkistsdreamI.M.A. Genius Peggy Dow Fanclub Member Nightkilled N1
5.TFOMegan Fox turned Peggy Dow Fanclub President lynched D2.
10.mtamburiniI.M.A. Genius Vanilla Townie has been Modkilled

My suspects are:

1. Melkor
2. Flow
3. Hotshot
4. benga

By simple process of elimination, those four are the obvious choices...So, let's get together and figure our way out of this. We do have a deadline coming up, after all...My vote is on Melkor. Based on his play and posting, I'm comfortable leaving my vote on him. Anyone else want to go along with me, and move this day out of speculation and on to hunting? No matter what happens in the next couple of days, let's keep these four in mind in order to win. I won't direct town actions, but it should be pretty obvious what needs to be done to ensure we keep our roles safe for the longest period. We should have our guy by tomorrow.

I agree with Melkor and Flow being the top 2 suspects. However I'd make Flow as most suspicious. I think Melkor sounds like a very confused newbie more than anything...

How come everyone was very suspicious of Flow yesterday, yet today after she scummarizes with only one pro-recruiters post before my vote she is not suspicious anymore? At least Melkor is posting a lot.

In order to move the day along, I would be willing to switch my vote to Melkor in order to get a claim, but I would prefer if people would switch to voting for Flow first.

(Btw, I believe Kratos' claim, he's basically a doctor. I think there won't be enough votes to lynch him, so we'd do better to try to find scum elsewhere)

[Flow520]

My vote is on Melkor. Based on his play and posting, I'm comfortable leaving my vote on him. Anyone else want to go along with me, and move this day out of speculation and on to hunting?

I'm inclined to agree with this because Melkor made several arguments for (and even voted for) lynching greg (who I believe is a cop).
So Vote Melkor.

[benga]

If kratos is fake claiming, wouldn't the real roleblocker come out and told us so?

unvote vote Flow, he just seems to jump on any wagon coming up

[jonty125]

If kratos is fake claiming, wouldn't the real roleblocker come out and told us so?

But kratos only roleblocks recruits, not like a traditional roleblocker, I would call this rolefishing, but you claim to be new (even though I'm fairly I've seen you before)

[benga]

If kratos is fake claiming, wouldn't the real roleblocker come out and told us so?

But kratos only roleblocks recruits, not like a traditional roleblocker, I would call this rolefishing, but you claim to be new (even though I'm fairly I've seen you before)

well this is my second mafia

[safariguy5]

I guess it's possible we have 2 cult recruiters, although the night scenes don't really seem to add up for me, but I don't think I can get more support for my case.

Between Melkor and Flow, I think the bandwagon vote from Flow is more scummy at this point, I don't have a strong scum read from Melkor as indeed this game can be quite confusing and I'm reading more confusion in his posts than anything.

unvote vote Flow

[kratos644]

That makes L-3 for flow. I'll wait for a claim to add my vote unless the claim is stalled for too long

[Flow520]

So second vote out of the 6 needed is bandwagoning? That's not bandwagoning.
I gave a good reason for placing my (second out of six needed) vote on Melkor. He wanted to lynch our cop.

[Melkor52]

So second vote out of the 6 needed is bandwagoning? That's not bandwagoning.
I gave a good reason for placing my (second out of six needed) vote on Melkor. He wanted to lynch our cop.

I voted to lynch what I believed was the one who was recruited in the night action. Since he declared himself to be a cop I felt he would have been the obvious choice to recruit. It was then brought to my attention that lynching a possible/probable recruit wasn't as important as finding the one who recruited him. I then changed my vote to the one I believe recruited him. Kratos!

Our watcher claimed to see Kratos visit Greg. Kratos then claimed he was a recruitment role-blocker; however, in day two (page 18) kratos said:

"There is no role to protect against recruiting but there are roles like watcher or tracker that can be helpful. For seeing who actually visited a person or where a person when. Both recruiter and mafia have to watch for that person though."

So if inexperience is playing my logic false, I'm sorry, but I still believe Greg was recruited and Kratos recruited him. With Kratos confirming he visited Greg I believe Safariguy5 is a watcher. The only other explanation is that the two of them are working together. And that just doesn't feel right to me. So my vote stays.

If someone else has a better explanation, I'm all ears. I think we just have one cult and if we find the cult leader (then kill Greg, his last recruit) we win.

[safariguy5]

So second vote out of the 6 needed is bandwagoning? That's not bandwagoning.
I gave a good reason for placing my (second out of six needed) vote on Melkor. He wanted to lynch our cop.

I voted to lynch what I believed was the one who was recruited in the night action. Since he declared himself to be a cop I felt he would have been the obvious choice to recruit. It was then brought to my attention that lynching a possible/probable recruit wasn't as important as finding the one who recruited him. I then changed my vote to the one I believe recruited him. Kratos!

Our watcher claimed to see Kratos visit Greg. Kratos then claimed he was a recruitment role-blocker; however, in day two (page 18) kratos said:

"There is no role to protect against recruiting but there are roles like watcher or tracker that can be helpful. For seeing who actually visited a person or where a person when. Both recruiter and mafia have to watch for that person though."

So if inexperience is playing my logic false, I'm sorry, but I still believe Greg was recruited and Kratos recruited him. With Kratos confirming he visited Greg I believe Safariguy5 is a watcher. The only other explanation is that the two of them are working together. And that just doesn't feel right to me. So my vote stays.

If someone else has a better explanation, I'm all ears. I think we just have one cult and if we find the cult leader (then kill Greg, his last recruit) we win.

Exactly what I've been saying, but nobody seems to be buying my case (besides you). So in the interest of getting something protective, I'd like to get a claim from Flow to at least get some value out of this day before deciding what we want to do. I've got no problem getting back on kratos but it's going to require more buy in from everyone else.

[kratos644]

Our watcher claimed to see Kratos visit Greg. Kratos then claimed he was a recruitment role-blocker; however, in day two (page 18) kratos said:

"There is no role to protect against recruiting but there are roles like watcher or tracker that can be helpful. For seeing who actually visited a person or where a person when. Both recruiter and mafia have to watch for that person though."

So if inexperience is playing my logic false, I'm sorry, but I still believe Greg was recruited and Kratos recruited him. With Kratos confirming he visited Greg I believe Safariguy5 is a watcher. The only other explanation is that the two of them are working together. And that just doesn't feel right to me. So my vote stays.

If someone else has a better explanation, I'm all ears. I think we just have one cult and if we find the cult leader (then kill Greg, his last recruit) we win.

The reason I said there isn't a protective role against a recruiter is because in most cases there isn't. If I had said "well there is this one role that can prevent someone from being recruited..." I would risk outting my role because it's such an obscure one. Generally if the role isn't something you can easily google you probably don't want to say "oh we might have one of these"
P.S. No I'm not shouting

[Melkor52]

Our watcher claimed to see Kratos visit Greg. Kratos then claimed he was a recruitment role-blocker; however, in day two (page 18) kratos said:

"There is no role to protect against recruiting but there are roles like watcher or tracker that can be helpful. For seeing who actually visited a person or where a person when. Both recruiter and mafia have to watch for that person though."

So if inexperience is playing my logic false, I'm sorry, but I still believe Greg was recruited and Kratos recruited him. With Kratos confirming he visited Greg I believe Safariguy5 is a watcher. The only other explanation is that the two of them are working together. And that just doesn't feel right to me. So my vote stays.

If someone else has a better explanation, I'm all ears. I think we just have one cult and if we find the cult leader (then kill Greg, his last recruit) we win.

The reason I said there isn't a protective role against a recruiter is because in most cases there isn't. If I had said "well there is this one role that can prevent someone from being recruited..." I would risk outting my role because it's such an obscure one. Generally if the role isn't something you can easily google you probably don't want to say "oh we might have one of these"
P.S. No I'm not shouting

Perhaps. But rereading pages 17 & 18, there was no need for you to say anything at all. So why would you post something that would later cast the FOS for contradictory statements. I would really like to hear what everyone else has to say. Without a better explanation of your previous lie and the fact you visited Greg last night my vote stands.

[virus90]

havent carefully read everything posted lately, will do that later but i think a claim from flow is good at this moment.

[kratos644]

Our watcher claimed to see Kratos visit Greg. Kratos then claimed he was a recruitment role-blocker; however, in day two (page 18) kratos said:

"There is no role to protect against recruiting but there are roles like watcher or tracker that can be helpful. For seeing who actually visited a person or where a person when. Both recruiter and mafia have to watch for that person though."

So if inexperience is playing my logic false, I'm sorry, but I still believe Greg was recruited and Kratos recruited him. With Kratos confirming he visited Greg I believe Safariguy5 is a watcher. The only other explanation is that the two of them are working together. And that just doesn't feel right to me. So my vote stays.

If someone else has a better explanation, I'm all ears. I think we just have one cult and if we find the cult leader (then kill Greg, his last recruit) we win.

The reason I said there isn't a protective role against a recruiter is because in most cases there isn't. If I had said "well there is this one role that can prevent someone from being recruited..." I would risk outting my role because it's such an obscure one. Generally if the role isn't something you can easily google you probably don't want to say "oh we might have one of these"
P.S. No I'm not shouting

Perhaps. But rereading pages 17 & 18, there was no need for you to say anything at all. So why would you post something that would later cast the FOS for contradictory statements. I would really like to hear what everyone else has to say. Without a better explanation of your previous lie and the fact you visited Greg last night my vote stands.

I'm sorry, next time someone has a question I won't help them... In a general sense, there usually isn't a role to protect against recruiters. Two recruiters don't usually exist in the same game either, though.

On a side note, what are you actually accusing me of being? You say you only believe there is 1 recruiter but you believe I'm a recruiter? We already killed a recruiter so if there is only one then the recruiter is gone. To be honest, the fact that you're pushing one recruiter so hard leads me to lean towards you.

Like I said, I got some flavor with my role that definitely implied two cults being more likely than one.

[Nebuchadnezer]

I sure wish Kratos and Melkor would quit clogging up this thread with their back and forth. We get it guys. You both think the other is scum.

We need to move this along, however, and you two are not helping. I'm am going to put Flow at L-2...claim time.

Unvote. Vote Flow.

[kratos644]

I sure wish Kratos and Melkor would quit clogging up this thread with their back and forth. We get it guys. You both think the other is scum.

We need to move this along, however, and you two are not helping. I'm am going to put Flow at L-2...claim time.

Unvote. Vote Flow.

I've been waiting for flow to claim. L-3 should've been good enough one would think

[Melkor52]

Our watcher claimed to see Kratos visit Greg. Kratos then claimed he was a recruitment role-blocker; however, in day two (page 18) kratos said:

"There is no role to protect against recruiting but there are roles like watcher or tracker that can be helpful. For seeing who actually visited a person or where a person when. Both recruiter and mafia have to watch for that person though."

So if inexperience is playing my logic false, I'm sorry, but I still believe Greg was recruited and Kratos recruited him. With Kratos confirming he visited Greg I believe Safariguy5 is a watcher. The only other explanation is that the two of them are working together. And that just doesn't feel right to me. So my vote stays.

If someone else has a better explanation, I'm all ears. I think we just have one cult and if we find the cult leader (then kill Greg, his last recruit) we win.

The reason I said there isn't a protective role against a recruiter is because in most cases there isn't. If I had said "well there is this one role that can prevent someone from being recruited..." I would risk outting my role because it's such an obscure one. Generally if the role isn't something you can easily google you probably don't want to say "oh we might have one of these"
P.S. No I'm not shouting

Perhaps. But rereading pages 17 & 18, there was no need for you to say anything at all. So why would you post something that would later cast the FOS for contradictory statements. I would really like to hear what everyone else has to say. Without a better explanation of your previous lie and the fact you visited Greg last night my vote stands.

I'm sorry, next time someone has a question I won't help them... In a general sense, there usually isn't a role to protect against recruiters. Two recruiters don't usually exist in the same game either, though.

On a side note, what are you actually accusing me of being? You say you only believe there is 1 recruiter but you believe I'm a recruiter? We already killed a recruiter so if there is only one then the recruiter is gone. To be honest, the fact that you're pushing one recruiter so hard leads me to lean towards you.

Like I said, I got some flavor with my role that definitely implied two cults being more likely than one.

I think you are trying to confuse the issue. I have said many times and with great consistency.
I believe there is just one cult. I believe the cult leader selects the person to be recruited and a follower is sent to do the deed. Since we lynched the follower/recruiter that left the cult leader. As the only one left in the cult HE must go out to do the recruiting. So once again I accuse YOU Kratos, of being the cult leader. You had to go to Greg to recruit him as the watcher confirmed your presence there. I don't know how to make it any plainer than that.

As for evidence, you claim to be a recruit blocker (after claiming that no such role exists); however, if Greg was recruited as I believe, then you must be the cult leader since you where there. It's possible I suppose that someone else was recruited, but my gut still tells me it was Greg.

Does anyone else want to chime in? Agree/disagree?

[HotShot53]

I think you are trying to confuse the issue. I have said many times and with great consistency.
I believe there is just one cult. I believe the cult leader selects the person to be recruited and a follower is sent to do the deed. Since we lynched the follower/recruiter that left the cult leader. As the only one left in the cult HE must go out to do the recruiting. So once again I accuse YOU Kratos, of being the cult leader. You had to go to Greg to recruit him as the watcher confirmed your presence there. I don't know how to make it any plainer than that.

As for evidence, you claim to be a recruit blocker (after claiming that no such role exists); however, if Greg was recruited as I believe, then you must be the cult leader since you where there. It's possible I suppose that someone else was recruited, but my gut still tells me it was Greg.

Does anyone else want to chime in? Agree/disagree?

Why do you believe so strongly there is only one cult? The way cults usually work is they start with one person, a recruiter, and grow over time as new members are recruited. The recruiter and leader are the same person as far as I've always heard. I've never heard of cults where the recruiting power changes hands.

[kratos644]

I think you are trying to confuse the issue. I have said many times and with great consistency.
I believe there is just one cult. I believe the cult leader selects the person to be recruited and a follower is sent to do the deed. Since we lynched the follower/recruiter that left the cult leader. As the only one left in the cult HE must go out to do the recruiting. So once again I accuse YOU Kratos, of being the cult leader. You had to go to Greg to recruit him as the watcher confirmed your presence there. I don't know how to make it any plainer than that.

As for evidence, you claim to be a recruit blocker (after claiming that no such role exists); however, if Greg was recruited as I believe, then you must be the cult leader since you where there. It's possible I suppose that someone else was recruited, but my gut still tells me it was Greg.

Does anyone else want to chime in? Agree/disagree?

Why do you believe so strongly there is only one cult? The way cults usually work is they start with one person, a recruiter, and grow over time as new members are recruited. The recruiter and leader are the same person as far as I've always heard. I've never heard of cults where the recruiting power changes hands.

This. It would be a totally broken mechanic if the recruiter power changed to a new cult member whenever the recruiter died. It would become near impossible for town to win.

[safariguy5]

I think you are trying to confuse the issue. I have said many times and with great consistency.
I believe there is just one cult. I believe the cult leader selects the person to be recruited and a follower is sent to do the deed. Since we lynched the follower/recruiter that left the cult leader. As the only one left in the cult HE must go out to do the recruiting. So once again I accuse YOU Kratos, of being the cult leader. You had to go to Greg to recruit him as the watcher confirmed your presence there. I don't know how to make it any plainer than that.

As for evidence, you claim to be a recruit blocker (after claiming that no such role exists); however, if Greg was recruited as I believe, then you must be the cult leader since you where there. It's possible I suppose that someone else was recruited, but my gut still tells me it was Greg.

Does anyone else want to chime in? Agree/disagree?

Why do you believe so strongly there is only one cult? The way cults usually work is they start with one person, a recruiter, and grow over time as new members are recruited. The recruiter and leader are the same person as far as I've always heard. I've never heard of cults where the recruiting power changes hands.

This. It would be a totally broken mechanic if the recruiter power changed to a new cult member whenever the recruiter died. It would become near impossible for town to win.

Semantically, Melkor is functionally saying we have another recruiter out there. What cult he recruits for is secondary. From a cult recruiter perspective, the best person to recruit would of course be the claimed cop as the cop would be the person most likely to find out the recruiter. Add in the probability that all of us were looking for the SKer rather than the recruiter and Night 2 seems like the best time to do it. Occam's razor tells me that kratos is is most likely to be the cult recruiter trying to convert the biggest threat to finding him out.

And if we want to talk about theories, if you indeed are this cult doctor type role, why visit greg? We already lynched the cult recruiter and there was no indication from Night 1 that we had 2 factions. If greg was recruited, there wasn't anything you could have done, it's not like you could turn him back town (as you yourself clarified). I think the prevailing theory was cult recruiter and either small mafia group or SKer. That's exactly why I watched greg because I figure the SKer would most likely take him out.

Quite frankly, I'm still think kratos is the better lynch target today, unless Flow claims something very odd.

[Flow520]

Players:
JamesKer1 TWO Flow520

I'm subbing in for a role that not one but two people previously abandoned.
Ergo, it must be a very interesting scum power role worthy of speed lynching.... (Note sarcasm.)
I'm I.M.A. Genius, the standard vanilla townie of this game. I get to vote, that's it.