The Crown [closed]

[Metsfanmax]

If they didn't show that the behavior was prohibited then people could start doing this all the time and what would that do for the community at large?

It would make the community at large more fun, I think. I like that people are meta-gaming, and I think that people should do more of it (so long as the 'victims' are not unhappy with what is going on).

[Gilligan]

If they didn't show that the behavior was prohibited then people could start doing this all the time and what would that do for the community at large?

It would make the community at large more fun, I think. I like that people are meta-gaming, and I think that people should do more of it (so long as the 'victims' are not unhappy with what is going on).

That'll be a very small group of people.

[Metsfanmax]

If they didn't show that the behavior was prohibited then people could start doing this all the time and what would that do for the community at large?

It would make the community at large more fun, I think. I like that people are meta-gaming, and I think that people should do more of it (so long as the 'victims' are not unhappy with what is going on).

That'll be a very small group of people.

If that's how they want to play against each other, I don't see why we should stop them.

[Gilligan]

If they didn't show that the behavior was prohibited then people could start doing this all the time and what would that do for the community at large?

It would make the community at large more fun, I think. I like that people are meta-gaming, and I think that people should do more of it (so long as the 'victims' are not unhappy with what is going on).

That'll be a very small group of people.

If that's how they want to play against each other, I don't see why we should stop them.

Why? Because it destroys the integrity of the scoreboard and the rest of the game (the initial integrity of the scoreboard is up for debate, but the point still stands).

[Metsfanmax]

If they didn't show that the behavior was prohibited then people could start doing this all the time and what would that do for the community at large?

It would make the community at large more fun, I think. I like that people are meta-gaming, and I think that people should do more of it (so long as the 'victims' are not unhappy with what is going on).

That'll be a very small group of people.

If that's how they want to play against each other, I don't see why we should stop them.

Why? Because it destroys the integrity of the scoreboard and the rest of the game (the initial integrity of the scoreboard is up for debate, but the point still stands).

What do you mean by integrity? And how does this affect the rest of the game?

[KraphtOne]

He actually appears to have waited until every possible loss is now gone...

So he's gonna pull a Rabbiton now and probably chill with his rank way the hell up there after getting an illegal 300 game win streak...

You could Truly do this on a much larger scale and get your score up to a nonsensical level...

1000 1vs1 games, win half of em... pick small size maps... make 1 move per day... games you're losing suicide them... games you're winning just make that 1 move per day... and within 10 turns you should have all your losses gone...

then whammo... kill errbody and win prizes from CC for doing nothing but winning half your games...

[KraphtOne]

What do you mean by integrity? And how does this affect the rest of the game?

if he is allowed to do this then this will be the only way to ever get your name on the scoreboard... and it will be done every month :0)

it can be done even easier than the way he did it...

it's kind of awesome...

[Gilligan]

If they didn't show that the behavior was prohibited then people could start doing this all the time and what would that do for the community at large?

It would make the community at large more fun, I think. I like that people are meta-gaming, and I think that people should do more of it (so long as the 'victims' are not unhappy with what is going on).

That'll be a very small group of people.

If that's how they want to play against each other, I don't see why we should stop them.

Why? Because it destroys the integrity of the scoreboard and the rest of the game (the initial integrity of the scoreboard is up for debate, but the point still stands).

What do you mean by integrity? And how does this affect the rest of the game?

Do I have to explain dirty tactics? Imagine Barry Bonds and his use of steroids.

How does it affect the rest of the game? If this is allowed, the strategy will spread. It only gets worse from there.

[Metsfanmax]

What do you mean by integrity? And how does this affect the rest of the game?

Do I have to explain dirty tactics? Imagine Barry Bonds and his use of steroids.

Your argument is circular. You are asserting that this is bad for the integrity of the scoreboard by assuming that these are dirty tactics. If we assumed that such tactics are not inherently dirty (and this is my assumption), then it does not harm the integrity of the scoreboard. So you have to make an argument for why this tactic is 'dirty'.

How does it affect the rest of the game? If this is allowed, the strategy will spread. It only gets worse from there.

Again, begging the question. What's the problem with the strategy spreading if this makes the game more fun for the people who want to play that way?

if he is allowed to do this then this will be the only way to ever get your name on the scoreboard... and it will be done every month :0)

This argument is unconvincing to me because most of the people who are on top of the scoreboard currently are also metagaming, just in a different way: specializing in certain settings and maps that they have a niche advantage on.

[Gilligan]

What do you mean by integrity? And how does this affect the rest of the game?

Do I have to explain dirty tactics? Imagine Barry Bonds and his use of steroids.

Your argument is circular. You are asserting that this is bad for the integrity of the scoreboard by assuming that these are dirty tactics. If we assumed that such tactics are not inherently dirty (and this is my assumption), then it does not harm the integrity of the scoreboard. So you have to make an argument for why this tactic is 'dirty'.

How does it affect the rest of the game? If this is allowed, the strategy will spread. It only gets worse from there.

Again, begging the question. What's the problem with the strategy spreading if this makes the game more fun for the people who want to play that way?

if he is allowed to do this then this will be the only way to ever get your name on the scoreboard... and it will be done every month :0)

This argument is unconvincing to me because most of the people who are on top of the scoreboard currently are also metagaming, just in a different way: specializing in certain settings and maps that they have a niche advantage on.

1) we've gone over this already.
2) because, as you can see here, the vast majority disagree with this strategy.
3) map specialization is much different than holding hostage in 300 games.

I'm starting to think you're arguing the point just for the sake of arguing it.

[Metsfanmax]

1) we've gone over this already.
2) because, as you can see here, the vast majority disagree with this strategy.

So we should let the majority dictate how everyone else participates in the CC experience?

3) map specialization is much different than holding hostage in 300 games.

Aside from the continued question-begging ("holding hostage"), why is it sufficiently different that one should be viewed as acceptable and the other should not? There are many who do not like that to get to the highest echelons of the scoreboard you need to specialize, but we never banned that (within reason). So, metagaming to reach the top of the scoreboard is generally accepted as a legitimate strategy, even if it makes some people uncomfortable. So you really need to come up with reasons why this one is so much worse than map specialization.

I'm starting to think you're arguing the point just for the sake of arguing it.

I'm starting to think you just don't like that people play the game differently than you do. I have spent a lot of time playing the game EVE Online. What makes this one of the best MMO's out there is that the players define the gaming environment, and all sorts of gaming strategies are present. They interact dynamically to create a wonderful set of possibilities, instead of the same old hackneyed strategies. This is where my attitude comes from -- I see that when you allow metagaming and completely orthogonal strategies, the community is enriched.

Anyway, I've had my say, I'll let others chime in now.

[KraphtOne]

[ISN2]

For those who still have no idea and think what TheCrown did is fair, please read this topic: viewtopic.php?t=199277

I also made an example there, which I'm going to repost here:

Let me explain with an example, let's say I have 2000 points and I'm going to play 700 games with other players who have 2000 points too. We say that in this example i'm going to win 350 games and lose 350 games, so if I play the games in normal way usually I will win 1 and lose 1 in turn, so at the end I will have 2000 points (maybe a few more or less) ...

But let me to calculate it with the way TheCrown did, I will first finish all 350 games that I'm going to lose and then I will finish the 350 games I'm going to win, here are the results that I produced using a small code:

Code: Select all

Game #1: 1980 (-20)
Game #2: 1960 (-20)
Game #3: 1940 (-20)
Game #4: 1921 (-19)
Game #5: 1902 (-19)
Game #6: 1883 (-19)
Game #7: 1864 (-19)
Game #8: 1845 (-19)
Game #9: 1827 (-18)
Game #10: 1809 (-18)
Game #11: 1791 (-18)
Game #12: 1773 (-18)
Game #13: 1755 (-18)
Game #14: 1737 (-18)
Game #15: 1720 (-17)
Game #16: 1703 (-17)
Game #17: 1686 (-17)
Game #18: 1669 (-17)
Game #19: 1652 (-17)
Game #20: 1635 (-17)
Game #21: 1619 (-16)
Game #22: 1603 (-16)
Game #23: 1587 (-16)
Game #24: 1571 (-16)
Game #25: 1555 (-16)
Game #26: 1539 (-16)
Game #27: 1524 (-15)
Game #28: 1509 (-15)
Game #29: 1494 (-15)
Game #30: 1479 (-15)
Game #31: 1464 (-15)
Game #32: 1449 (-15)
Game #33: 1435 (-14)
Game #34: 1421 (-14)
Game #35: 1407 (-14)
Game #36: 1393 (-14)
Game #37: 1379 (-14)
Game #38: 1365 (-14)
Game #39: 1351 (-14)
Game #40: 1337 (-14)
Game #41: 1324 (-13)
Game #42: 1311 (-13)
Game #43: 1298 (-13)
Game #44: 1285 (-13)
Game #45: 1272 (-13)
Game #46: 1259 (-13)
Game #47: 1246 (-13)
Game #48: 1234 (-12)
Game #49: 1222 (-12)
Game #50: 1210 (-12)
Game #51: 1198 (-12)
Game #52: 1186 (-12)
Game #53: 1174 (-12)
Game #54: 1162 (-12)
Game #55: 1150 (-12)
Game #56: 1138 (-12)
Game #57: 1127 (-11)
Game #58: 1116 (-11)
Game #59: 1105 (-11)
Game #60: 1094 (-11)
Game #61: 1083 (-11)
Game #62: 1072 (-11)
Game #63: 1061 (-11)
Game #64: 1050 (-11)
Game #65: 1039 (-11)
Game #66: 1029 (-10)
Game #67: 1019 (-10)
Game #68: 1009 (-10)
Game #69: 999 (-10)
Game #70: 989 (-10)
Game #71: 979 (-10)
Game #72: 969 (-10)
Game #73: 959 (-10)
Game #74: 949 (-10)
Game #75: 940 (-9)
Game #76: 931 (-9)
Game #77: 922 (-9)
Game #78: 913 (-9)
Game #79: 904 (-9)
Game #80: 895 (-9)
Game #81: 886 (-9)
Game #82: 877 (-9)
Game #83: 868 (-9)
Game #84: 859 (-9)
Game #85: 850 (-9)
Game #86: 841 (-9)
Game #87: 833 (-8)
Game #88: 825 (-8)
Game #89: 817 (-8)
Game #90: 809 (-8)
Game #91: 801 (-8)
Game #92: 793 (-8)
Game #93: 785 (-8)
Game #94: 777 (-8)
Game #95: 769 (-8)
Game #96: 761 (-8)
Game #97: 753 (-8)
Game #98: 745 (-8)
Game #99: 738 (-7)
Game #100: 731 (-7)
Game #101: 724 (-7)
Game #102: 717 (-7)
Game #103: 710 (-7)
Game #104: 703 (-7)
Game #105: 696 (-7)
Game #106: 689 (-7)
Game #107: 682 (-7)
Game #108: 675 (-7)
Game #109: 668 (-7)
Game #110: 661 (-7)
Game #111: 654 (-7)
Game #112: 647 (-7)
Game #113: 641 (-6)
Game #114: 635 (-6)
Game #115: 629 (-6)
Game #116: 623 (-6)
Game #117: 617 (-6)
Game #118: 611 (-6)
Game #119: 605 (-6)
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Game #122: 587 (-6)
Game #123: 581 (-6)
Game #124: 575 (-6)
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Game #168: 369 (-4)
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Game #174: 346 (-3)
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Game #176: 340 (-3)
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Game #180: 328 (-3)
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Game #182: 322 (-3)
Game #183: 319 (-3)
Game #184: 316 (-3)
Game #185: 313 (-3)
Game #186: 310 (-3)
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Game #188: 304 (-3)
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Game #208: 245 (-2)
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Game #269: 136 (-1)
Game #270: 135 (-1)
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Game #280: 125 (-1)
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Game #351: 155 (+100)
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The difference at the end is almost 3300 points ...

So I believe what TheCrown did is a serious thing that should be looked at ...

[jltile1]

1) we've gone over this already.
2) because, as you can see here, the vast majority disagree with this strategy.

So we should let the majority dictate how everyone else participates in the CC experience?

3) map specialization is much different than holding hostage in 300 games.

Aside from the continued question-begging ("holding hostage"), why is it sufficiently different that one should be viewed as acceptable and the other should not? There are many who do not like that to get to the highest echelons of the scoreboard you need to specialize, but we never banned that (within reason). So, metagaming to reach the top of the scoreboard is generally accepted as a legitimate strategy, even if it makes some people uncomfortable. So you really need to come up with reasons why this one is so much worse than map specialization.

I'm starting to think you're arguing the point just for the sake of arguing it.

I'm starting to think you just don't like that people play the game differently than you do. I have spent a lot of time playing the game EVE Online. What makes this one of the best MMO's out there is that the players define the gaming environment, and all sorts of gaming strategies are present. They interact dynamically to create a wonderful set of possibilities, instead of the same old hackneyed strategies. This is where my attitude comes from -- I see that when you allow metagaming and completely orthogonal strategies, the community is enriched.

Anyway, I've had my say, I'll let others chime in now.

Are you the head thinker or the head DRINKER ???

Please tell me this a real CC body speaking like this.

[frankiebee]

If they didn't show that the behavior was prohibited then people could start doing this all the time and what would that do for the community at large?

It would make the community at large more fun, I think. I like that people are meta-gaming, and I think that people should do more of it (so long as the 'victims' are not unhappy with what is going on).

That'll be a very small group of people.

If that's how they want to play against each other, I don't see why we should stop them.

Why? Because it destroys the integrity of the scoreboard and the rest of the game (the initial integrity of the scoreboard is up for debate, but the point still stands).

What do you mean by integrity? And how does this affect the rest of the game?

Holy shit, you are ''Head thinker'' but you seem to miss every point somebody else with a different opinions makes.

It touches the integrity of the scoreboard because a player with absolutely 0 skill can reach conqueror by playing 1000 games on doodle, lux, madagascar and other easy maps, stalls half of the game he wins, and the player will be at 6000 points, and place 1, while in fact he's not at all a player with a high skill level.'

It affects the rest of the game because games will drag on longer if more people will do this. It affects everyone who get more or less points than deserved because of the timing of wins/losses of 1 individual.

Why am I discussing this... Thecrown violated the rules and should get a point reset. Only fair option.

[jltile1]

I guess all players should do this and it all good that CROWN found the hole in the system? He clearly HELD GAMES HOSTAGE. What else can you say. This is Crazy the fact CC most trusted playes and admin are abusing the system and then backing the player that does the dirty work. I am totally disgusted that any member of the CC team would do this OR back this kind of action. It's time for the REAL CC MODS to get busy with dealing with these jokers.

[SuicidalSnowman]

So maybe put my point of view across.

Obviously my thoughts will carry little weight because I'm not in the "in" crowd of this mythical CC elite - where you all kiss each other and preen together - nor would I to be honest.

So lets roll back a few months, I joined CC and after the SoC academy (for which I thank the ideas i picked up) I wanted to play some team games or join a clan.
but oh no - who would want a "noob" on their clan - we're like the shit on someone's shoe - bloody impossible - lepers have more friends and i was about to give it up.

So then The Crown - approached me and lots more besides to join a new clan - so we did and we've had a whole lot more enjoyment from the game.
He's probably responsible for about 30/40 people actually becoming more involved in clan wars and via our forum.

There are also plenty of times I've been invited to a map by people and milked for points so don't get all sanctimonious

I went into this contest with open eyes - we agreed to send each other 12 maps each and cross out 2.
Actually I played a lot i didn't know and i know a lot more now - is learning maps now to be banned ?

So if TheCrown is guilty then we are guilty of the same - fine - have your secret society of preeners and chuck us all out - and there was I thinking you wanted more players and clans being involved in CC.
No-one was forced to play 1v1 - some of the clan didn't.

The Crown has done more for my enjoyment of CC than most of you will ever do - (SoC members excepted).

I don't pretend to read the rules and regulations - but in a team game - killing your team-0mates one could argue is a specific startegy to win/avoid losing - so were do you

I think this post is really interesting and may show just how far TheCrown has gone. The thing that a lot of posts seem to be missing, save for the follow up to this one (which was never answered) is that clearly there were many examples of what normally constitutes "hostage holding" and yet not a single C&A complaint. In my view, he has either explicitly asked people not to complain about it or just has happened to get very lucky.

Both are pretty possible, I often don't really complain about what could be seen as taking time during an otherwise secured game as I have plenty of space, so as long as it is only a turn or two, I'm not going to file a C&A report. It is also entirely possible that he simply started this tournament with users with whom he has great rapport, and they are willing to, as it seems Bantam is, let it slide. If this is the case, and Crown has seriously cultivated enough goodwill to get this many people involved, then I think we may have discovered a new level of devotion to this website.


Something else interesting to consider is whether or not this setup breaks any of the site rules. Think about it: Essentially what he has done here is set up a tournament with some gentleman's rules that you don't have to finish the game as soon as possible. I have probably played several hundred games under the "Adjacent Attacks" setting which later became Trench Warfare. These games were played under gentleman's rules to follow the restriction, even though it wasn't enforced by the game engine. I am sure there were times when someone could have won a game and wiped the board, but did not, only to later lose. If I benefit from those points, have I committed an infraction? There was never a formal complaint but we were widespread enough that it wasn't a secret.

There are also occasionally tournaments that use different scoring metrics that may influence game outcomes. Some tournaments award points for kills, which means you might essentially suicide to get an elimination, and hand the overall game win to another player, for tournament advancement. In the past, this hasn't been held as against the rules of CC.

TheCrown has done something sort of similar, he just took it very, very far. Is that necessarily wrong? I don't know, not for me to decide. But I think if we decide this is (or even if we decide it isn't) we need to consider the implications. We are, essentially, trying to read his intent into this. Did he maybe think it would be fun to have a 1v1 tournament where you were allowed to build? Possibly so! Did he do this just to try to abuse the integrity of the scoreboard? Possibly so! If I make a tournament but say "To advance, you must have a turn where you receive at least 50 reinforcements" and everyone joins knowing full well what they are getting into, have I just broken the rules because some games may hold up longer than expected? Does that outcome change if one player is able to shoot to the top of the scoreboard?


I suppose the biggest hole in my analogy is that TheCrown didn't seem to apply this "Gentleman's Rule" evenly. It appears that he only applied it based on whether or not he was winning or losing the game. Mayhaps that is where we should be looking in deciding where this falls.

[jltile1]

So maybe put my point of view across.

Obviously my thoughts will carry little weight because I'm not in the "in" crowd of this mythical CC elite - where you all kiss each other and preen together - nor would I to be honest.

So lets roll back a few months, I joined CC and after the SoC academy (for which I thank the ideas i picked up) I wanted to play some team games or join a clan.
but oh no - who would want a "noob" on their clan - we're like the shit on someone's shoe - bloody impossible - lepers have more friends and i was about to give it up.

So then The Crown - approached me and lots more besides to join a new clan - so we did and we've had a whole lot more enjoyment from the game.
He's probably responsible for about 30/40 people actually becoming more involved in clan wars and via our forum.

There are also plenty of times I've been invited to a map by people and milked for points so don't get all sanctimonious

I went into this contest with open eyes - we agreed to send each other 12 maps each and cross out 2.
Actually I played a lot i didn't know and i know a lot more now - is learning maps now to be banned ?

So if TheCrown is guilty then we are guilty of the same - fine - have your secret society of preeners and chuck us all out - and there was I thinking you wanted more players and clans being involved in CC.
No-one was forced to play 1v1 - some of the clan didn't.

The Crown has done more for my enjoyment of CC than most of you will ever do - (SoC members excepted).

I don't pretend to read the rules and regulations - but in a team game - killing your team-0mates one could argue is a specific startegy to win/avoid losing - so were do you

I think this post is really interesting and may show just how far TheCrown has gone. The thing that a lot of posts seem to be missing, save for the follow up to this one (which was never answered) is that clearly there were many examples of what normally constitutes "hostage holding" and yet not a single C&A complaint. In my view, he has either explicitly asked people not to complain about it or just has happened to get very lucky.

Both are pretty possible, I often don't really complain about what could be seen as taking time during an otherwise secured game as I have plenty of space, so as long as it is only a turn or two, I'm not going to file a C&A report. It is also entirely possible that he simply started this tournament with users with whom he has great rapport, and they are willing to, as it seems Bantam is, let it slide. If this is the case, and Crown has seriously cultivated enough goodwill to get this many people involved, then I think we may have discovered a new level of devotion to this website.


Something else interesting to consider is whether or not this setup breaks any of the site rules. Think about it: Essentially what he has done here is set up a tournament with some gentleman's rules that you don't have to finish the game as soon as possible. I have probably played several hundred games under the "Adjacent Attacks" setting which later became Trench Warfare. These games were played under gentleman's rules to follow the restriction, even though it wasn't enforced by the game engine. I am sure there were times when someone could have won a game and wiped the board, but did not, only to later lose. If I benefit from those points, have I committed an infraction? There was never a formal complaint but we were widespread enough that it wasn't a secret.

There are also occasionally tournaments that use different scoring metrics that may influence game outcomes. Some tournaments award points for kills, which means you might essentially suicide to get an elimination, and hand the overall game win to another player, for tournament advancement. In the past, this hasn't been held as against the rules of CC.

TheCrown has done something sort of similar, he just took it very, very far. Is that necessarily wrong? I don't know, not for me to decide. But I think if we decide this is (or even if we decide it isn't) we need to consider the implications. We are, essentially, trying to read his intent into this. Did he maybe think it would be fun to have a 1v1 tournament where you were allowed to build? Possibly so! Did he do this just to try to abuse the integrity of the scoreboard? Possibly so! If I make a tournament but say "To advance, you must have a turn where you receive at least 50 reinforcements" and everyone joins knowing full well what they are getting into, have I just broken the rules because some games may hold up longer than expected? Does that outcome change if one player is able to shoot to the top of the scoreboard?


I suppose the biggest hole in my analogy is that TheCrown didn't seem to apply this "Gentleman's Rule" evenly. It appears that he only applied it based on whether or not he was winning or losing the game. Mayhaps that is where we should be looking in deciding where this falls.

I read about two lines.... Sorry but he is playing his clan mates enough said.

[Metsfanmax]

Holy shit, you are ''Head thinker'' but you seem to miss every point somebody else with a different opinions makes.

I am "Head Thinker" because it's my job to envision all of the future possibilities for CC, so that we can plot CC's trajectory. That means I wouldn't be doing my job right if I didn't fully explore what CC would be like in these different circumstances, to find out whether they would be better or worse. I think there are many arguments that can be made on this subject, and I can't make an informed decision if I don't know what peoples' opinions are, and the reasoning behind them.

On the other hand, this particular decision is not one under my purview, so Gilligan is partially correct in that I was mostly discussing this to get all of the points of view out on the table for everyone to see.

I guess all players should do this and it all good that CROWN found the hole in the system? He clearly HELD GAMES HOSTAGE. What else can you say. This is Crazy the fact CC most trusted playes and admin are abusing the system and then backing the player that does the dirty work. I am totally disgusted that any member of the CC team would do this OR back this kind of action. It's time for the REAL CC MODS to get busy with dealing with these jokers.

Yeah, he held players hostage and I think he is guilty under the current interpretation of the rules.

[SuicidalSnowman]

I think this post is really interesting and may show just how far TheCrown has gone. The thing that a lot of posts seem to be missing, save for the follow up to this one (which was never answered) is that clearly there were many examples of what normally constitutes "hostage holding" and yet not a single C&A complaint. In my view, he has either explicitly asked people not to complain about it or just has happened to get very lucky.

Both are pretty possible, I often don't really complain about what could be seen as taking time during an otherwise secured game as I have plenty of space, so as long as it is only a turn or two, I'm not going to file a C&A report. It is also entirely possible that he simply started this tournament with users with whom he has great rapport, and they are willing to, as it seems Bantam is, let it slide. If this is the case, and Crown has seriously cultivated enough goodwill to get this many people involved, then I think we may have discovered a new level of devotion to this website.


Something else interesting to consider is whether or not this setup breaks any of the site rules. Think about it: Essentially what he has done here is set up a tournament with some gentleman's rules that you don't have to finish the game as soon as possible. I have probably played several hundred games under the "Adjacent Attacks" setting which later became Trench Warfare. These games were played under gentleman's rules to follow the restriction, even though it wasn't enforced by the game engine. I am sure there were times when someone could have won a game and wiped the board, but did not, only to later lose. If I benefit from those points, have I committed an infraction? There was never a formal complaint but we were widespread enough that it wasn't a secret.

There are also occasionally tournaments that use different scoring metrics that may influence game outcomes. Some tournaments award points for kills, which means you might essentially suicide to get an elimination, and hand the overall game win to another player, for tournament advancement. In the past, this hasn't been held as against the rules of CC.

TheCrown has done something sort of similar, he just took it very, very far. Is that necessarily wrong? I don't know, not for me to decide. But I think if we decide this is (or even if we decide it isn't) we need to consider the implications. We are, essentially, trying to read his intent into this. Did he maybe think it would be fun to have a 1v1 tournament where you were allowed to build? Possibly so! Did he do this just to try to abuse the integrity of the scoreboard? Possibly so! If I make a tournament but say "To advance, you must have a turn where you receive at least 50 reinforcements" and everyone joins knowing full well what they are getting into, have I just broken the rules because some games may hold up longer than expected? Does that outcome change if one player is able to shoot to the top of the scoreboard?


I suppose the biggest hole in my analogy is that TheCrown didn't seem to apply this "Gentleman's Rule" evenly. It appears that he only applied it based on whether or not he was winning or losing the game. Mayhaps that is where we should be looking in deciding where this falls.

I read about two lines.... Sorry but he is playing his clan mates enough said.

I think you should read more. It doesn't seem like you got enough to post a meaningful response.

[demonfork]

Holy shit, you are ''Head thinker'' but you seem to miss every point somebody else with a different opinions makes.

I am "Head Thinker" because it's my job to envision all of the future possibilities for CC, so that we can plot CC's trajectory. That means I wouldn't be doing my job right if I didn't fully explore what CC would be like in these different circumstances, to find out whether they would be better or worse. I think there are many arguments that can be made on this subject, and I can't make an informed decision if I don't know what peoples' opinions are, and the reasoning behind them.

On the other hand, this particular decision is not one under my purview, so Gilligan is partially correct in that I was mostly discussing this to get all of the points of view out on the table for everyone to see.

I guess all players should do this and it all good that CROWN found the hole in the system? He clearly HELD GAMES HOSTAGE. What else can you say. This is Crazy the fact CC most trusted playes and admin are abusing the system and then backing the player that does the dirty work. I am totally disgusted that any member of the CC team would do this OR back this kind of action. It's time for the REAL CC MODS to get busy with dealing with these jokers.

Yeah, he held players hostage and I think he is guilty under the current interpretation of the rules.

Looks like the Head Thinker is realizing that it's times to cut his losses

[jltile1]

I think this post is really interesting and may show just how far TheCrown has gone. The thing that a lot of posts seem to be missing, save for the follow up to this one (which was never answered) is that clearly there were many examples of what normally constitutes "hostage holding" and yet not a single C&A complaint. In my view, he has either explicitly asked people not to complain about it or just has happened to get very lucky.

Both are pretty possible, I often don't really complain about what could be seen as taking time during an otherwise secured game as I have plenty of space, so as long as it is only a turn or two, I'm not going to file a C&A report. It is also entirely possible that he simply started this tournament with users with whom he has great rapport, and they are willing to, as it seems Bantam is, let it slide. If this is the case, and Crown has seriously cultivated enough goodwill to get this many people involved, then I think we may have discovered a new level of devotion to this website.


Something else interesting to consider is whether or not this setup breaks any of the site rules. Think about it: Essentially what he has done here is set up a tournament with some gentleman's rules that you don't have to finish the game as soon as possible. I have probably played several hundred games under the "Adjacent Attacks" setting which later became Trench Warfare. These games were played under gentleman's rules to follow the restriction, even though it wasn't enforced by the game engine. I am sure there were times when someone could have won a game and wiped the board, but did not, only to later lose. If I benefit from those points, have I committed an infraction? There was never a formal complaint but we were widespread enough that it wasn't a secret.

There are also occasionally tournaments that use different scoring metrics that may influence game outcomes. Some tournaments award points for kills, which means you might essentially suicide to get an elimination, and hand the overall game win to another player, for tournament advancement. In the past, this hasn't been held as against the rules of CC.

TheCrown has done something sort of similar, he just took it very, very far. Is that necessarily wrong? I don't know, not for me to decide. But I think if we decide this is (or even if we decide it isn't) we need to consider the implications. We are, essentially, trying to read his intent into this. Did he maybe think it would be fun to have a 1v1 tournament where you were allowed to build? Possibly so! Did he do this just to try to abuse the integrity of the scoreboard? Possibly so! If I make a tournament but say "To advance, you must have a turn where you receive at least 50 reinforcements" and everyone joins knowing full well what they are getting into, have I just broken the rules because some games may hold up longer than expected? Does that outcome change if one player is able to shoot to the top of the scoreboard?


I suppose the biggest hole in my analogy is that TheCrown didn't seem to apply this "Gentleman's Rule" evenly. It appears that he only applied it based on whether or not he was winning or losing the game. Mayhaps that is where we should be looking in deciding where this falls.

I read about two lines.... Sorry but he is playing his clan mates enough said.

I think you should read more. It doesn't seem like you got enough to post a meaningful response.

Your kiddin right ??

[Metsfanmax]

Holy shit, you are ''Head thinker'' but you seem to miss every point somebody else with a different opinions makes.

I am "Head Thinker" because it's my job to envision all of the future possibilities for CC, so that we can plot CC's trajectory. That means I wouldn't be doing my job right if I didn't fully explore what CC would be like in these different circumstances, to find out whether they would be better or worse. I think there are many arguments that can be made on this subject, and I can't make an informed decision if I don't know what peoples' opinions are, and the reasoning behind them.

On the other hand, this particular decision is not one under my purview, so Gilligan is partially correct in that I was mostly discussing this to get all of the points of view out on the table for everyone to see.

I guess all players should do this and it all good that CROWN found the hole in the system? He clearly HELD GAMES HOSTAGE. What else can you say. This is Crazy the fact CC most trusted playes and admin are abusing the system and then backing the player that does the dirty work. I am totally disgusted that any member of the CC team would do this OR back this kind of action. It's time for the REAL CC MODS to get busy with dealing with these jokers.

Yeah, he held players hostage and I think he is guilty under the current interpretation of the rules.

Looks like the Head Thinker is realizing that it's times to cut his losses

I made clear pages ago that the question of whether he is guilty of hostage holding is logically distinct from from whether he is guilty of 'gross abuse of the scoreboard'. I don't think he is guilty of the latter; I do think he's guilty of the former.

That's all I have to say on the subject. Carry on.

[jonofperu]

I like TheCrown.
I think it's brilliant he came up with a way to jump to Conqueror, but unfortunately he crossed a line with hostage-holding. You could conceivably achieve a smaller points boost without hostage-holding, but not on the same scale.

Ending losing games first isn't against the rules (do lots of players do it?). I doubt there's a good way to "fix the system" in this regard nor is it necessary to avoid abuse. In a mild form it's something that would be hard to regulate but would probably affect people's reputations - "this guy takes 23 hours when he's winning and drags out the games, I'm never playing him again!". It would also cancel itself out somewhat because people would counter with the same tactic.

In my opinion if you have the time to play hundreds of games simultaneously, speed up your losses, and take your time winning (while trying to win - i.e. no hostages) you will have a points boost and it's FINE. But the system is big enough and the scoring system good enough that it shouldn't be very easy to jump thousands of points that way. (My score would go up if I had the time and the internet connection to play lots of speed games… but I don’t so I’m not going to complain if others do.)

Another danger of letting "hostage-taking for points gain" go unpunished is you could use it to target people: I recently played a series of games against the Conqueror Josko.ri. What if I had sped my losses and delayed my wins by holding him hostage... and in the mean time dropped to a score of 1000 or so? Then I could have cost him hundreds of points! (Not that I won that many against Josko... only started 2/10 against him and it looks like I'm only going to win 2, LOL. Ironically, I'll win points off Josko if I only win 2/10. Which makes me respect him all the more for playing Clan wars, tournaments, etc.)

The scoring system is pretty fair. People who care about rank have to be careful who they play, etc. The higher you get the harder it is.
I don't know if there's a good way to enforce anything more than the clear rule "no hostage-taking" to avoid abuse. Maybe that's enough in this case?

[jltile1]

So all player should be able to do this right?? So since the farming issue got delt with this is the new issue. But how is it a issue he held players hostage his own damn clan mates. How can any player or CC MOD not get this. OK let's start a 12 1v1 war against 100 players. That's 24 games with each player. Make the losers happen fast and stall the winners. Then BOOM 4000 points give me a break.