CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

[IcePack]

Not to mention the fact that your rep is on holiday

Can't they assign a temp rep while he's on holiday? I think we covered that in CDF?

[Foxglove]

Not to mention the fact that your rep is on holiday

Can't they assign a temp rep while he's on holiday? I think we covered that in CDF?

Is it that earth-shakingly important?

[jetsetwilly]

Not to mention the fact that your rep is on holiday

Can't they assign a temp rep while he's on holiday? I think we covered that in CDF?

I think that's for extended holidays as opposed Bruce taking a short skiing trip

[josko.ri]

But I agree, a better job of indicating what's being voted on shoul be done so people are more aware of CdF actions. And I point out CDF rep a lot because I think people need to be more aware who they are and what they are actually voting.

This is only what I asked. If you spend on this so much time how much you spend in writing here what I should or should not ask my representative (who is on holiday) or what people should or should not know based on previous 3 editions, your contribution would be more useful.

Calling something "normal" is automatic giving suggestion "you should vote for this". It implies that other suggestion is not normal, and who would like to vote for something which is not normal? So instead of giving nicknames to suggestions, more constructive is describe what the suggestion represents.

[IcePack]

Not to mention the fact that your rep is on holiday

Can't they assign a temp rep while he's on holiday? I think we covered that in CDF?

Is it that earth-shakingly important?

I guess that up to the individual clan to decide.

[Qwert]

hmm, these its not normal competition, its Cup, so if Dako dont have rules, and that clans negotiate basic terms, then these can go out of control.
For normal wars,you all ready have clan challenges. And its Cup discussion topic, i dont understand why Fallen are nervous, its not mean that any what people suggest will be accepted.
For change will be good to give suggestions, not to oppose anything what other only suggested.

The cup was built to be a collection of normal wars, with a basic structure of rules to form the competition. It is a discussion topic. We aren't nervous. You propose / want to discuss new terms or rules, and we respond. That's how this works isn't it qwert? Or are discussions only one way?

Well its more that you and your teammates responded and opposed. Your only idea its to leave how its been in previous Cups, without no changes. its you only want to argue and oppose anything what not look like previous cups. But its ok, you have right to do that, only its no need to repeat these every time. Now we can move to other suggestions.

[chapcrap]

hmm, these its not normal competition, its Cup, so if Dako dont have rules, and that clans negotiate basic terms, then these can go out of control.
For normal wars,you all ready have clan challenges. And its Cup discussion topic, i dont understand why Fallen are nervous, its not mean that any what people suggest will be accepted.
For change will be good to give suggestions, not to oppose anything what other only suggested.

The cup was built to be a collection of normal wars, with a basic structure of rules to form the competition. It is a discussion topic. We aren't nervous. You propose / want to discuss new terms or rules, and we respond. That's how this works isn't it qwert? Or are discussions only one way?

Well its more that you and your teammates responded and opposed. Your only idea its to leave how its been in previous Cups, without no changes. its you only want to argue and oppose anything what not look like previous cups. But its ok, you have right to do that, only its no need to repeat these every time. Now we can move to other suggestions.

We are not the only two who want it to be normal. Did you see the other people +1 my post. And the vote in CDF is apparently 18-3 or something like that. That's pretty overwhelming. Just because there are a few, vocal people doesn't mean that it should be changed. That's what I'm saying.

[josko.ri]

hmm, these its not normal competition, its Cup, so if Dako dont have rules, and that clans negotiate basic terms, then these can go out of control.
For normal wars,you all ready have clan challenges. And its Cup discussion topic, i dont understand why Fallen are nervous, its not mean that any what people suggest will be accepted.
For change will be good to give suggestions, not to oppose anything what other only suggested.

The cup was built to be a collection of normal wars, with a basic structure of rules to form the competition. It is a discussion topic. We aren't nervous. You propose / want to discuss new terms or rules, and we respond. That's how this works isn't it qwert? Or are discussions only one way?

Well its more that you and your teammates responded and opposed. Your only idea its to leave how its been in previous Cups, without no changes. its you only want to argue and oppose anything what not look like previous cups. But its ok, you have right to do that, only its no need to repeat these every time. Now we can move to other suggestions.

We are not the only two who want it to be normal. Did you see the other people +1 my post. And the vote in CDF is apparently 18-3 or something like that. That's pretty overwhelming. Just because there are a few, vocal people doesn't mean that it should be changed. That's what I'm saying.

I already explained why it has majority votes, in the voting there are biased options.

Calling something "normal" is automatic giving suggestion "you should vote for this". It implies that other suggestion is not normal, and who would like to vote for something which is not normal?

[IcePack]

hmm, these its not normal competition, its Cup, so if Dako dont have rules, and that clans negotiate basic terms, then these can go out of control.
For normal wars,you all ready have clan challenges. And its Cup discussion topic, i dont understand why Fallen are nervous, its not mean that any what people suggest will be accepted.
For change will be good to give suggestions, not to oppose anything what other only suggested.

The cup was built to be a collection of normal wars, with a basic structure of rules to form the competition. It is a discussion topic. We aren't nervous. You propose / want to discuss new terms or rules, and we respond. That's how this works isn't it qwert? Or are discussions only one way?

Well its more that you and your teammates responded and opposed. Your only idea its to leave how its been in previous Cups, without no changes. its you only want to argue and oppose anything what not look like previous cups. But its ok, you have right to do that, only its no need to repeat these every time. Now we can move to other suggestions.

We are not the only two who want it to be normal. Did you see the other people +1 my post. And the vote in CDF is apparently 18-3 or something like that. That's pretty overwhelming. Just because there are a few, vocal people doesn't mean that it should be changed. That's what I'm saying.

I already explained why it has majority votes, in the voting there are biased options.

Calling something "normal" is automatic giving suggestion "you should vote for this". It implies that other suggestion is not normal, and who would like to vote for something which is not normal?

except that it doesn't say "normal" in the voting at all, which i clarified.

[josko.ri]

hmm, these its not normal competition, its Cup, so if Dako dont have rules, and that clans negotiate basic terms, then these can go out of control.
For normal wars,you all ready have clan challenges. And its Cup discussion topic, i dont understand why Fallen are nervous, its not mean that any what people suggest will be accepted.
For change will be good to give suggestions, not to oppose anything what other only suggested.

The cup was built to be a collection of normal wars, with a basic structure of rules to form the competition. It is a discussion topic. We aren't nervous. You propose / want to discuss new terms or rules, and we respond. That's how this works isn't it qwert? Or are discussions only one way?

Well its more that you and your teammates responded and opposed. Your only idea its to leave how its been in previous Cups, without no changes. its you only want to argue and oppose anything what not look like previous cups. But its ok, you have right to do that, only its no need to repeat these every time. Now we can move to other suggestions.

We are not the only two who want it to be normal. Did you see the other people +1 my post. And the vote in CDF is apparently 18-3 or something like that. That's pretty overwhelming. Just because there are a few, vocal people doesn't mean that it should be changed. That's what I'm saying.

I already explained why it has majority votes, in the voting there are biased options.

Calling something "normal" is automatic giving suggestion "you should vote for this". It implies that other suggestion is not normal, and who would like to vote for something which is not normal?

except that it doesn't say "normal" in the voting at all, which i clarified.

maybe it says in discussion about voting? did you clarified after or before people voted for that option?

[IcePack]

The cup was built to be a collection of normal wars, with a basic structure of rules to form the competition. It is a discussion topic. We aren't nervous. You propose / want to discuss new terms or rules, and we respond. That's how this works isn't it qwert? Or are discussions only one way?

Well its more that you and your teammates responded and opposed. Your only idea its to leave how its been in previous Cups, without no changes. its you only want to argue and oppose anything what not look like previous cups. But its ok, you have right to do that, only its no need to repeat these every time. Now we can move to other suggestions.

We are not the only two who want it to be normal. Did you see the other people +1 my post. And the vote in CDF is apparently 18-3 or something like that. That's pretty overwhelming. Just because there are a few, vocal people doesn't mean that it should be changed. That's what I'm saying.

I already explained why it has majority votes, in the voting there are biased options.

Calling something "normal" is automatic giving suggestion "you should vote for this". It implies that other suggestion is not normal, and who would like to vote for something which is not normal?

except that it doesn't say "normal" in the voting at all, which i clarified.

maybe it says in discussion about voting? did you clarified after or before people voted for that option?

The poll had options at the start, that weren't changed midway through., It never referenced "normal" in anyway. The vote was legitimate, and didn't influence them to vote for anything one way or another. Clan reps just overwhelmingly desired to keep it the way it was.

IcePack

[josko.ri]

The poll had options at the start, that weren't changed midway through., It never referenced "normal" in anyway. The vote was legitimate, and didn't influence them to vote for anything one way or another. Clan reps just overwhelmingly desired to keep it the way it was.

IcePack

I wonder what was second option to vote besides "normal"? Was it this original and very well presented form of suggestion: viewtopic.php?f=438&t=186880&start=225#p4097373
or was it IcePack's-do-not-vote-for-this personal interpretation of the suggestion?

[IcePack]

The poll had options at the start, that weren't changed midway through., It never referenced "normal" in anyway. The vote was legitimate, and didn't influence them to vote for anything one way or another. Clan reps just overwhelmingly desired to keep it the way it was.

IcePack

I wonder what was second option to vote besides "normal"? Was it this original and very well presented form of suggestion: viewtopic.php?f=438&t=186880&start=225#p4097373
or was it IcePack's-do-not-vote-for-this personal interpretation of the suggestion?

I had nothing to do with setting up the vote, or the options.

[josko.ri]

The poll had options at the start, that weren't changed midway through., It never referenced "normal" in anyway. The vote was legitimate, and didn't influence them to vote for anything one way or another. Clan reps just overwhelmingly desired to keep it the way it was.

IcePack

I wonder what was second option to vote besides "normal"? Was it this original and very well presented form of suggestion: viewtopic.php?f=438&t=186880&start=225#p4097373
or was it IcePack's-do-not-vote-for-this personal interpretation of the suggestion?

I had nothing to do with setting up the vote, or the options.

Whoever set up the vote, did he/she connect it with link to original idea of the presenter, or it was just made personal interpretation of the second option?

[IcePack]

The poll had options at the start, that weren't changed midway through., It never referenced "normal" in anyway. The vote was legitimate, and didn't influence them to vote for anything one way or another. Clan reps just overwhelmingly desired to keep it the way it was.

IcePack

I wonder what was second option to vote besides "normal"? Was it this original and very well presented form of suggestion: viewtopic.php?f=438&t=186880&start=225#p4097373
or was it IcePack's-do-not-vote-for-this personal interpretation of the suggestion?

I had nothing to do with setting up the vote, or the options.

Whoever set up the vote, did he/she connect it with link to original idea of the presenter, or it was just made personal interpretation of the second option?

So was it because it said normal, or because it might not have been explained well enough? Or are you just changing the reason until it works to fit with Joskos-the-vote-must-be-wrong personal view point of what CC4 should be?

I dont have the time or desire to fight on and on about this, but it seems like a majority of clans want it to be the same, yet a few keep pressing the issue. Dako will end up making his decision, im pretty sure ill leave it at that.

icePack

[josko.ri]

The poll had options at the start, that weren't changed midway through., It never referenced "normal" in anyway. The vote was legitimate, and didn't influence them to vote for anything one way or another. Clan reps just overwhelmingly desired to keep it the way it was.

IcePack

I wonder what was second option to vote besides "normal"? Was it this original and very well presented form of suggestion: viewtopic.php?f=438&t=186880&start=225#p4097373
or was it IcePack's-do-not-vote-for-this personal interpretation of the suggestion?

I had nothing to do with setting up the vote, or the options.

Whoever set up the vote, did he/she connect it with link to original idea of the presenter, or it was just made personal interpretation of the second option?

So was it because it said normal, or because it might not have been explained well enough? Or are you just changing the reason until it works to fit with Joskos-the-vote-must-be-wrong personal view point of what CC4 should be?

I dont have the time or desire to fight on and on about this, but it seems like a majority of clans want it to be the same, yet a few keep pressing the issue. Dako will end up making his decision, im pretty sure ill leave it at that.

icePack

It is both, one reason is that option 1 is called "normal" and other reason is that option 2 is not originally described but was probably given self-interpretation of whoever put the poll.

[IcePack]

Ok if you say so

[Qwert]

hmm,i must say that i only can see one vote procedure,and these vote are related on map use.
We are not still come to other vote questions yet.

[jghost7]

The CD's put up the poll. You can ask Bruce how the question was put since he is the head CD and your clans rep. He will verify their work for you.

Thanks,

J

[Nicky15]

The CD's put up the poll. You can ask Bruce how the question was put since he is the head CD and your clans rep. He will verify their work for you.

Thanks,

J

Not sure what the issues are here. I run the CDF group. The poll was presented to me by Dako and put the vote up word for word.

for those who cannot ask their reps what it was i will paste it in here.

[Vote] CCup Map usage. (2 day)

Postby Nicky15 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:11 pm
Current CCup rules say that map can be used only twice per clan war and once per game type

Please vote

a) Leave it as it was
b) Change to map can be used only once per round
c) Change to map can be used only only twice during entire cup and only once per round
d) Change to map can be used only only thrice during entire cup and only once per round

The clans then select one option each and vote.

The final results of this vote were as follows

A = 22
B = 6
C = 1
misc a/b = 1

As you can see, clans voted to keep the original format. As Bruce is away Kort are free to submit a vote today if they wish.

[Nicky15]

i do not like the part about being a member of cd and friends group to join. we do have a rep there (mainly to see what bullshit is being talked about now..)but this is like saying nobody can join a tourney unless they join the tpa...

Some clans are just not all that into the politics side of it and just want to play the games so why be forced into joining a user group they do not want so they can play the game...

and ps dako i was glad to see you are running this and know you will be fair and inpartial...

No one is forced to do anything. Personally I think this group works well. I fail to see where any "BS" is being discussed Eddie

The CDs took ownership of both the league and the cup this year making them official clan events. we did this because both tournaments have faced their issues. Now while the CDs do not run them, we are heavily involved so if something were to happen to the TO, we are fully aware of the tournament workings and can step in and take over without causing delay.

We will only insist that being a member of CDF is compulsory for these two main competitions. This is because these comps are discussed in CDF and votes take place, so if you aren't a member your clan wont be getting their say. All we ask for from each member is to vote a few times a month.

We set up the CDF group to give clans a say in what happens in the clan world. Handing over as much decision making power to clans themselves as possible. In an ideal world your rep would be discussing each vote with their clan before their vote is cast.

[Dako]

Draft of CCup4 rules, ver. 4


Following sections has been changed from version #3:

• Seeding and brackets
• Clan eligibility
• Player eligibility
• Clan wars
• Timing out a turn
• Change of rules by mutual agreement

Seeding and brackets

Clan ranks will be taken from F400 of the latest version. I will arrange with IcePack for F400 to be updated once the sign-ups close.
We will have a standard tournament bracket with some twist:

1. Top-4 clans as per F400 will start in predefined places in round of 16
2. If we will have more than 32 eligible clans, those at the bottom of the F400 rankings will play a play-in round to claim their spot in top-32
3. Clans ranked 5 — 32 will be divided in 4 pots:
   
   1. Pot A — clans from 5 to 11
   2. Pot B — clans from 12 to 18
   3. Pot C — clans from 19 to 25
   4. Pot D — clans from 26 to 32
4. After that they will be randomly paired with the following idea: clan from Pot A vs clan from Pot C or clan from Pot B vs clan from Pot D

Here is an image of brackets for 35 clans so you can grasp an idea of how it will work.

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/6157/ccbrackets.jpg


Clan Eligibility

To sign-up for CCup your clan must meet the following criteria:

• Be a member of CD&F group
• Have at least 15 members
• Have completed at least one war of 40+ games or participated in one of the leagues (either clan league or random league)

If your clan doesn't meet any or all of these points and you still want to enlist for CCup you should PM me with an explanation why you should be allowed in. After that myself and CD's will review your application and may judge you feasible to participate in CCup.


Player Eligibility

If a player who have already participated in the current competition switches a clan in the middle of CCup that player can participate after he/she waits one full round of CCup.


Allowed Settings

• Initial Troops - only Automatic
• Play Order - only Sequential
• Spoils - any
• Reinforcements - any
• Special Gameplay - any, but Trench Warfare games cannot take more than 20% of home games of each clan
• Round Limit - only 30 Rounds
• Round Length - only 24 Hours

Fog of war courtesy rule will be applied by default to all games.


Allowed maps

Any, excluding Beta maps



Clan wars

For all rounds:
- Each clan will pick the map and settings for exactly half of the games
- Each map can only be used twice per clan per clan war but can only be used once per game type (i.e. once for triples and once for quads)


Play-in round, Round of 32, Round of 16
- 41 total games
- 12 doubles, 14 triples, 14 quads with 41st game being Quads on World 2.1, sunny, chained, no spoils
- Each clan member can only participate in 12 games per clan war
- Each round will be played in two batches with exactly half of the games in each batch


Quarter-finals, semi-finals
- 61 total games
- 20 doubles, 20 triples, 20 quads with 61st game being Quads on World 2.1, sunny, chained, no spoils
- Each clan member can only participate in 16 games per clan war
- Each round will be played in three batches with exactly third of the games in each batch

Finals
- 81 total games
- 24 doubles, 28 triples, 28 quads with 81st game being Quads on World 2.1, sunny, chained, no spoils
- Each clan member can only participate in 22 games per clan war
- Finals will be played in four batches with exactly quarter of the games in each batch


Sending games

Detailed schedule will be posted before each round in advance.
Penalty for being late sending or joining games will be one home game forfeiture per day unless opposing clan will agree to play the game out.


Timing out a turn

• Timing out in spoils games will not be tolerated by any players or clans that abuse this.
  
  1. First offense of a team: the game will be remade.
  2. Second offense of a team (in the same game): the game will not be considered as a win for the offending clan for CCup purposes. If they do win, then the game will be declared a draw. In these circumstances, games may still count towards other statistics, such as ranking systems.
  3. If a clan has been penalized (as above) for two offenses in one game, then commits a single further offense in any game in the same round the same penalty will apply: the game will not be considered as a win for the offending clan for CCup purposes. If they do win, then the game will be declared a draw. In these circumstances, games may still count towards other statistics, such as ranking systems.
  4. If a clan have been penalized twice during the CCupthen any single further offense in any game during the entire CCup will result in the same penalty will apply: the game will not be considered as a win for the offending clan for CCup purposes. If they do win, then the game will be declared a draw. In these circumstances, games may still count towards other statistics, such as ranking systems.
  5. Timing-out, missing turns or dead beating in No Spoils games will not be investigated, or result in any penalties.

Our Clan Directors (Nicky15 and Leehar) will personally investigate all cases and make final judgmenet if timing out a turn was abusive or not.


Change of rules by mutual agreement

Clans are not allowed to invent new rules. Clans can tweak some rules for their round upon mutual agreement and my own confirmation.

Clans can change:

• Allowed settings — trench games limit can be changed
• Allowed settings — round limit can be changed to other options
• Fog of war courtesy can be dropped
• Tie-breaker format, such as map/settings and number of games it takes to break a tie
• Games exchange date can be changed, but not for more than 1 week

Those cannot be changed:

• Allowed maps
• Allowed settings — initial troops, play order, spoils, reinforcements, round length
• Number of games per round and their dubs/trips/quads proportion
• Player limit for each round

Site bugs, player bans and other unpredictable circumstances

Any game that has been crippled by some outer intervention can be replayed only if both clans agree to replay the game.


============


As far as brackets discussion goes - please look at this picture and see what I have in mind. It will work with any amount of clans. Example for 35 clans - http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/6157/ccbrackets.jpg

There will be no random draws between every round in CCup.

Please discuss.
Dako.

[Qwert]

hmm if i understand correct clans from 5 to 11 will play against clans from 19 to 25-------and clans from 12 to 18 will play against 26 to 32(33,34,35). Hmm these look like old system where low ranked clans will have minimum chances to reach round 2. Its look that only clans in play round have equal chances to get at least one medal. Also its big possibility that clan no1 play against clan no5,No2 vs no6,no3 vs no7 and no4 vs no8 in Top 16, what its much early then what ha pend in previous cups.

[Dako]

Oh, and one more thing about these discussions. I think we will be able to finalize all the rules this week. After that I will post next draft which will include all the latest comments from you. I hope that #5 draft will be final and nothing major will be changed there. I will give one more week for final calls from you after which I will post final CCup4 rules.

After that, on April 1st, I will open sign-ups.
On April 15th they will be closed, with final brackets posted on the latest F400 later at that day.
On April 22nd first round will start and games for 1st batch will be sent.

How does this schedule sound to you?

PS - if there will be no major discussions about the rules this week we might speed up all the things and skip one week in schedule.

[Crazyirishman]

the only potential loophole I found is this:

Timing-out, missing turns or dead beating in No Spoils games will not be investigated, or result in any penalties.

In this, a clan could potentially have somebody deadbeat intentionally in a no spoils giving their territs and troops to a teammate and changing the flow of the game. I doubt this is likely to happen, but it's still a possibility.