D-Day: Omaha Beach! [Quenched]

[hulmey]

Batteries can attack 2 closest targets ???

All around and/or radius of 2?

[t.e.c]

i think he means the 2 closest red crosshairs

[Spritzking]

but if you are lucky to start with the 2 turrets you will recieve a bonus of 7?

[ericwdhs]

I don't know how long it's been there but... CLOSETS >>> CLOSEST. Other than that and the historical polarity thing, it looks great.

[mibi]

but if you are lucky to start with the 2 turrets you will recieve a bonus of 7?

yeah, if your very lucky, but thats 6 territories, its like starting out with Europe or something, it wont be likely.

[mibi]

I don't know how long it's been there but... CLOSETS >>> CLOSEST. Other than that and the historical polarity thing, it looks great.

wow my spelling is horrible.

fixed!

[KEYOGI]

Can we perhaps see some sort of shadow or glow effect around the red labels and lines over the grassy areas of the map. Perhaps increase the size of the numbers as well, they're a little on the small side and you have plenty of room.

[AndyDufresne]

The map is looking marvelously beautiful mibi!

Regarding the impassable borders, I would like to think people would understand, but I've been proven wrong before, and it's not always safe to assume! One thing you could do, is perhaps length the map slightly vertically, and at the bottom add the impassables, etc. But I'm not sure that it's even needed, but that sort of option could be do able.

Also, regarding the batteries, I think it would be fantastic if we could use the possible xml alteration suggestion of 'attack a country but not conquer' for the batteries attacking the targets. I'm not sure how feasible it is, as Lack and I have yet to go over all the suggestions, but it is tantalizing idea...


--Andy

[mibi]

Can we perhaps see some sort of shadow or glow effect around the red labels and lines over the grassy areas of the map. Perhaps increase the size of the numbers as well, they're a little on the small side and you have plenty of room.

numbers are a little bigger and have some outer dark glow
[quote="Andy"]The map is looking marvelously beautiful mibi!

Regarding the impassable borders, I would like to think people would understand, but I've been proven wrong before, and it's not always safe to assume! One thing you could do, is perhaps length the map slightly vertically, and at the bottom add the impassables, etc. But I'm not sure that it's even needed, but that sort of option could be do able.

Also, regarding the batteries, I think it would be fantastic if we could use the possible xml alteration suggestion of 'attack a country but not conquer' for the batteries attacking the targets. I'm not sure how feasible it is, as Lack and I have yet to go over all the suggestions, but it is tantalizing idea...
{/quote]

Well i added some text about the im passibles. I didnt want to put it at the bottom and split up the legends, thats a bit silly. using future xml would be cool, this map has already been play tested and the batteries have been used to break the beach bonuses, making them very effecting. If all they could do would be bring down the beach areas to 1 army, I dont think it would be utilized as much. its a cost-benefit situation, as much as it would be ideal for the scenario and directed gameplay, people arn't likely to waste armies on a territory they can't conquer, at least not in this case. It would work however if there was an option to conquer but not fotify, meaning you could break the territory but not move any armies after the intial one. that would be better than the problem of whole armies warping over the beach as it is now. but this map plays well as is, and who knows when the xml update will happen.

[plysprtz]

this map is looking fantastic but my only notice is the barbed wire. you could spend the extra 10 or so minutes and make it look really kool instead of a bunch of x's



XXXXXXXX
X
X
^^^

you wouldn't call that barbed wire would you

but its no biggy just a suggestion if you want to impress lack

[ericwdhs]

Are there no bonuses for holding the German controlled land?

Also, I thought the Xs were beach obstacles, not barbed wire. They look dead on. http://www.howitzer.dk/battlefield/batt ... ricade.jpg

[mibi]

this map is looking fantastic but my only notice is the barbed wire. you could spend the extra 10 or so minutes and make it look really kool instead of a bunch of x's



XXXXXXXX
X
X
^^^

you wouldn't call that barbed wire would you

but its no biggy just a suggestion if you want to impress lack

well the thing is If i did barbwire to scale, you would be able to see it. seriously, what would barb wire look like from that height? if you have any suggestions on how to create some realistic barbwire then let me know, im all ears.

[sully800]

Two things I would like to ask (and I'm sorry if they've been covered, but I searched and didn't see anything):

1) Why are the numbers labeling the beaches so much biggger than everywhere else? It seems quite strange to me.

2) Are there bonuses for the different German divisions? Because I can't find them anywhere on the map, but it seems odd to have 3 continent sized areas, distinguished from the rest of the map, yet no bonus.

[Coleman]

Are there no bonuses for holding the German controlled land?

None, and I've played the map twice now on paper and it works great. It would be infinitely less fun if people were vying for the german territory as continents and not as passage from one bunker to the next. It also works good as undesirable extra territory that you can fill with 1s for easy bonus just from the land count, if your opponents aren't paying much attention.

[Spritzking]

but if you are lucky to start with the 2 turrets you will recieve a bonus of 7?

yeah, if your very lucky, but thats 6 territories, its like starting out with Europe or something, it wont be likely.

well i thought it where only the 2 teritories in front of thet 2 bunkers. but i think confusion came from the fact that the batteries (continent) are named the same in the legend as the actual shooting thing.

[ericwdhs]

but if you are lucky to start with the 2 turrets you will recieve a bonus of 7?

yeah, if your very lucky, but thats 6 territories, its like starting out with Europe or something, it wont be likely.

well i thought it where only the 2 teritories in front of thet 2 bunkers. but i think confusion came from the fact that the batteries (continent) are named the same in the legend as the actual shooting thing.

That confusion is understandable but I don't see how it'd be logical for the guns to be fired from the front. Batteries are technically just sets of weaponry that defend something, not necessarily a bunker. The batteries on this map only appear to have one large weapon so technically, they should be called emplacements or fortifications.

[Coleman]

Well I finally have some xml for this. The centering isn't finished, in fact I've barely worked on it beyond getting things generally where they are supposed to be. Everything but the centering should be done, however. I'm posting a link for people to comment on naming conventions I used and in case there is some blatant error I missed with borders or something.

Here it is: http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/D-Day_01.xml

I have a small concern with the lengths of many of the territory names, what happens when they are too long isn't something I'm all that sure of.

[mibi]

Changes:

1. Batteries changes to Artilleries
2. beach numbers are smaller
3. small map



small map

[mibi]

Well I finally have some xml for this. The centering isn't finished, in fact I've barely worked on it beyond getting things generally where they are supposed to be. Everything but the centering should be done, however. I'm posting a link for people to comment on naming conventions I used and in case there is some blatant error I missed with borders or something.

Here it is: http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/D-Day_01.xml

I have a small concern with the lengths of many of the territory names, what happens when they are too long isn't something I'm all that sure of.

I wouldnt worrry too much about centering anything except the boat circles, since no two craters are the same. Also, the battery has changed to Artillery, and you might want to double check the 916th Artillery 1, it cant attack out the one way walls.

[Coleman]

Well I finally have some xml for this. The centering isn't finished, in fact I've barely worked on it beyond getting things generally where they are supposed to be. Everything but the centering should be done, however. I'm posting a link for people to comment on naming conventions I used and in case there is some blatant error I missed with borders or something.

Here it is: http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/D-Day_01.xml

I have a small concern with the lengths of many of the territory names, what happens when they are too long isn't something I'm all that sure of.

I wouldnt worrry too much about centering anything except the boat circles, since no two craters are the same. Also, the battery has changed to Artillery, and you might want to double check the 916th Artillery 1, it cant attack out the one way walls.

Doh, see I knew I forgot something.

EDIT: http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/D-Day_03.xml
Centering should be pretty good too.

EDIT2: Found a way to test the borders.
Go here: http://www.multiblah.com/cc_tester/
Use this xml: http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/D-Day_bt.xml
Use this map: http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8930 ... allax9.jpg

They look good to me.

[sully800]

For the legend, I like how the bonuses about ships are on the same line. However the bunker and artillery descriptions are split up. It seems like it would make more sense to put the beach and plane/parachute bonus on the same line, because then the bunker and artillery bonuses would line up.

Also, the trench picture in the legend looks a little funny because the surrounding green is so light. It looks like you cropped that image from the 352nd Infantray #6 which is the lightest trench on the map. I think it would look better with a darker rim of green (really any other trench) because it would blend better with the background.

Oh, and I don't particularly like the discrepancy of borders between the different bunkers and artilleries. The bunkers on the right can be defended by a single territory if you place your men on the german ground in back of the bunker. They also can attack 4 different places one way. Then the bunker on the left has to be defended by 2 territories, can only attack 3 places through its one way borders, and yet its worth the same amount, despite its larger weaknesses. The same is true for the artilleries. The one on the left can be defended with a single country but the one on the right will always have two borders that can be attacked. Once again they have the same bonus.

I think that the hole on the left most bunker should be closed up, and each bunker should only be worth +1. (They are 2 country continents and can be defended with a single country border. +2 is too much).

Then I think the artillery on the left should have a border opened up (whether you add a hole in the wall or change the german areas above it doesn't really matter) and those bonuses should both remain as +2.

Actually, now that I think about it, why are all the ship groups worth the same amount? Thomas has 2 more countries than any other ship group, and 2 more borders, so it shouldn't be worth the same. Especially because the Bayfield and Arkansas groups would be taken first making Thomas even harder to defend. Arkansas and Bayfield should be changed to a +3 bonus and Thomas could possibly switch to a +5 but I think I like it at +4.

Along the same lines, the middle beach needs to have a higher bonus than the side beaches also. It has 1 more border and is completely central on the map, surrounded by many more continents than the side beaches. I think the Easy beach should be worth +6 or maybe +7, and the Fox/Dog beaches should stay at +5.

Finally, you have -1 for plane and parachute in the legend. Does that include any plane and parachute combination? Because if it does you could start with a -4 bonus for them (by owning all 4) which would give a -1 bonus overall and cause some major problems. If the bonus only applies to the matching pairs of nearest plane and nearest parachute then I think you should distinguish that in the legend.

[Coleman]

Well let us begin by my feeling that it is up to me to defend game play at this point.

I don't particularly like the discrepancy of borders between the different bunkers and artilleries. The bunkers on the right can be defended by a single territory if you place your men on the german ground in back of the bunker. They also can attack 4 different places one way. Then the bunker on the left has to be defended by 2 territories, can only attack 3 places through its one way borders, and yet its worth the same amount, despite its larger weaknesses. The same is true for the artilleries. The one on the left can be defended with a single country but the one on the right will always have two borders that can be attacked. Once again they have the same bonus.

Then I think the artillery on the left should have a border opened up (whether you add a hole in the wall or change the German areas above it doesn't really matter) and those bonuses should both remain as +2.

I think I'll cry if I see forced symmetry again like what happened with the wards in Siege. Lets think about Australia vs South America for a minute, they are both worth 2, I don't see how this is all that different with one extra border on some of them. If I need to argue this further I will.

I think that the hole on the left most bunker should be closed up, and each bunker should only be worth +1. (They are 2 country continents and can be defended with a single country border. +2 is too much).

I can tell you from experience the game is rarely won based on the bunkers alone, and any player trying to snag all those +2's usually fails. As such at +2 they are not overpowered.

If they were only worth 1 then I feel they would be ignored. What mibi is attempting with the map is directed game play, we want people fighting for the bunkers and the artillery as much as possible. This conflict would decrease if the bunkers decreased in value.

Actually, now that I think about it, why are all the ship groups worth the same amount? Easy has 2 more countries than any other ship group, and 2 more borders, so it shouldn't be worth the same. Especially because the Fox and Dog groups would be taken first making Easy even harder to defend. Fox and Dog should be changed to a +3 bonus and Easy could possibly switch to a +5 but I think I like it at +4.

This presents a unique problem. You think those are the ship names. Those are the beach names. The ships are U.S.S. Arkansas, Thomas Jefferson, and Bayfield, not Fox, Easy, and Dog. This actually may be something that needs some sort of map change to correct, as I feel you are an intelligent person, and your making that mistake isn't a good sign.

With that out of the way, if the ships value decreases to +3 then the balance between German and American forces is compromised. The American ships become less desirable. I don't disagree that maybe both Easy Beach and the U.S.S. Thomas Jefferson should be worth more, however that would clutter the legend up a bit too much, and their current values don't hurt the game play as far as I can tell.

Honestly, and I can't stress this enough, I think too much emphesis is placed on how much 'continents' are worth and not enough on how much they should give. Just because something is slightly harder to hold doesn't always mean it should give more bonus. In a way I think the group bonus for the ships makes up for the lower value of the middle one. And if you run the formula, owning one of the side ships and the middle ship really is close to being worth 8, which is what you would be getting.

Finally, you have -1 for plane and parachute in the legend. Does that include any plane and parachute combination? Because if it does you could start with a -4 bonus for them (by owning all 4) which would give a -1 bonus overall and cause some major problems. If the bonus only applies to the matching pairs of nearest plane and nearest parachute then I think you should distinguish that in the legend.

No, that is not how it is coded in the xml. Do you have a suggestion as to how to distinguish it in the legend?

[mibi]

For the legend, I like how the bonuses about ships are on the same line. However the bunker and artillery descriptions are split up. It seems like it would make more sense to but the beach and plane/parachute bonus on the same line, because then the bunker and artillery bonuses would line up.

The legend is fine in that regard, the 'standard' bonuses are on one side and the 'special' bonuses are on the other.

Also, the trench picture in the legend looks a little funny because the surrounding green is so light. It looks like you cropped that image from the 352nd Infantray #6 which is the lightest trench on the map. I think it would look better with a darker rim of green (really any other trench) because it would blend better with the background.

yeah i can do that.

Oh, and I don't particularly like the discrepancy of borders between the different bunkers and artilleries. The bunkers on the right can be defended by a single territory if you place your men on the german ground in back of the bunker. They also can attack 4 different places one way. Then the bunker on the left has to be defended by 2 territories, can only attack 3 places through its one way borders, and yet its worth the same amount, despite its larger weaknesses. The same is true for the artilleries. The one on the left can be defended with a single country but the one on the right will always have two borders that can be attacked. Once again they have the same bonus.

the discrepancy is what i love about the map. Different sides of the map have their weaknesses and strong points, if you want to success you have to exploit those weaknesses and defend the strong points. Symmetrical game play would lead to boring and automatic movements. The asymmetry involved another level of strategy that successful players will employ.

I think that the hole on the left most bunker should be closed up, and each bunker should only be worth +1. (They are 2 country continents and can be defended with a single country border. +2 is too much).

Then I think the artillery on the left should have a border opened up (whether you add a hole in the wall or change the german areas above it doesn't really matter) and those bonuses should both remain as +2.

Actually, now that I think about it, why are all the ship groups worth the same amount? Thomas has 2 more countries than any other ship group, and 2 more borders, so it shouldn't be worth the same. Especially because the Bayfield and Arkansas groups would be taken first making Thomas even harder to defend. Arkansas and Bayfield should be changed to a +3 bonus and Thomas could possibly switch to a +5 but I think I like it at +4.

Along the same lines, the middle beach needs to have a higher bonus than the side beaches also. It has 1 more border and is completely central on the map, surrounded by many more continents than the side beaches. I think the Easy beach should be worth +6 or maybe +7, and the Fox/Dog beaches should stay at +5.

It is time we moved beyond the bonus calculator, and let the players make judgments on which territory is worth it for them in their position on the map. Yes the center beach is harder to hold, the solution? You need more armies to hold it, or dont bother placing your self in the center of the action. If this was just a geo map of some random country then yes, the continents should be 'balanced'. But this is a scenario, its D-Day!, the continents are imbalanced to direct the game play to fit with the scenario and provide a better experience. I think it works, and thanks for the suggestions.

Finally, you have -1 for plane and parachute in the legend. Does that include any plane and parachute combination? Because if it does you could start with a -4 bonus for them (by owning all 4) which would give a -1 bonus overall and cause some major problems. If the bonus only applies to the matching pairs of nearest plane and nearest parachute then I think you should distinguish that in the legend.

The most that would happen is a -2 for holding all those territories. if this is unclear in the legend I can change it, but I figured if it is indicated that the plane matches with the closest parachute, then the -1 bonus would match as well, perhaps not tho.

[spinwizard]

keep working on the mistery map!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sully800]

This presents a unique problem. You think those are the ship names. Those are the beach names. The ships are U.S.S. Arkansas, Thomas Jefferson, and Bayfield, not Fox, Easy, and Dog. This actually may be something that needs some sort of map change to correct, as I feel you are an intelligent person, and your making that mistake isn't a good sign.

Well, I realized my mistake before you commented and already had edited my post, so I don't think its too big of a concern.

As for the balance of continents, yes australia has one border and SA has two in the classic map....but SA has a much stronger board position because you can expand into Africa or NAmerica, whereas australia can't expand to much of anywhere since asia is a waste land.

But anyway, if you are happy with the bonuses being unbalanced for this "directed gameplay" then I guess I'm fine with it too. I personally think it ruins the gameplay of a map to have some areas which are much stronger than others and yet have them yield the same bonus. As with siege I hate the numbering method for naming countries as well, but I understand once again that it won't be changed either. No offense of course because the maps mibi makes look marvelous, I just don't like the playability as much as a more traditional set up with balanced gameplay and named territories. I especially don't like the idea of making bonuses unbalanced simply because specifying each bonus properly would clutter the legend.

Anyway, for the plane/parachute situation, I would suggest writing "-1 plane and closest parachute" to clarify that its not any plane and any parachute.

For the legend, I like how the bonuses about ships are on the same line. However the bunker and artillery descriptions are split up. It seems like it would make more sense to put the beach and plane/parachute bonus on the same line, because then the bunker and artillery bonuses would line up.

The legend is fine in that regard, the 'standard' bonuses are on one side and the 'special' bonuses are on the other.

I understand the distinction between the standard and special bonuses. I am not asking you to change those lines.

I think it should be:

+4 EACH SHIP GROUP +7 ALL SHIPS
+2 EACH BUNKER +4 ALL BUNKERS
+2 EACH ARTILLERY +3 BOTH ARTILLERIES
+5 EACH BEACH -1 PLANE AND PARACHUTE

That way the seperation between standard and special bonuses is made, and the 2 labels for bunker/artillery are in the same row as you made the ship labels.