josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

[Chariot of Fire]

Accused:

josko.ri
Moonchild

The accused are suspected of:

i) Systematic sitting abuse
ii) Entering a player into games in the knowledge he will be absent
iii) Gaining an unfair advantage in complex unlimited fort games

Game number(s):

Game 11960113*
Game 11960055*
Game 11960054
Game 11926485*
Game 11895784*
Game 11895783*
Game 11895782
Game 11859148
Game 11859147*
Game 11673703*
Game 11665183
Game 11590571
Game 11590570*

The above 13 games all featured sitting of Moonchild, with unlimited fort settings, and in addition there are 20 other tournament team games (not listed) featuring Moonchild that were set-up by KORT since early September. Total 33 games.

Comments:

i) Any experienced CC player will tell you that unlimited forts is a complex setting whose most difficult moves (and greatest input) are in Round 1. I have marked with a * against 8 of the 13 games above the instances where a KORT player - Moonchild in 7 of 8 - has been covered by the team's best player in the very first round.

ii) It is apparent (from game chat in Game 11558832) that since the beginning of September Moonchild has been unable to log in to CC unless from his work PC (see comment here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=179479&start=45#p3970685 which means for 38% of the week he is unable to take his own turns.

iii) KORT has a member list running to 30 players, approx 25-26 of whom are active. Why then are they putting a player into games who they know cannot play his own turns on such a regular basis.

iv) More alarmingly, why are 40% of the games he is entered in with unlimited forts, especially when such a high incidence of first round turns are not taken by him but by josko?

Some interesting info on the games (I've only covered the 13 unlimited forts games listed above, not the entire 33) as follows:

Game 11960113 - josko took Moonchild's first turn. Moonchild could have taken this himself on 23rd Nov but left it to josko to play later.
Game 11926485 - josko played his turn less than 3 hours after the preceding player, thus ensuring Moonchild's turn would fall due over the weekend. This is contrary to the remark made by josko contained here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=179479&start=45#p3970685 wherein he states in Pt.1 that he will stall his turn to avoid having to sit for Moonchild. Also in this game josko covered for Sir Sebstar in Round 1 - yet by remarkable coincidence Sir Sebstar was able to return to CC just 41 minutes after his turn would have expired and post here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=135788&p=3961622#p3961622
Game 11895784 - blue plays just 4 hours after the previous turn, thus ensuring Moonchild's turn will have to be covered over the weekend
Game 11895783 - turn fell due and could have been played on the 16th by Moonchild, yet it was left to josko
Game 11673703 - josko took his turn after just 82 minutes, again ensuring Moonchild's turn would have to be covered by him over the weekend
Game 11590570 - 23rd September (Sunday) Moonchild plays his own turn. So does he have Internet or not? Or was the sitting not posted in chat, and if so how many more instances of this have occurred? Also in this game another KORT player had his 1st turn taken (by Nimic) and subsequently josko sat again for Moonchild.

Make from it what you will, but on the evidence it would appear there is a routine practice of entering Moonchild in KORT challenge/tourney games when he is known to be absent for a great part of that time. And when 40% of those games involve unlimited forts - which josko conveniently covers - then it would appear an unfair advantage is being gained by KORT using these settings in conjunction with a practice of sitting abuse. So far, judging from the results, this has served them very well against AOC, Pack, Dynasty, OSA and again (just commencing) AOC.

Thank you

p.s. lots more examples of KORT's sitting practice in unlimited fort games may be seen here: Game 11037499 (josko sitting 1st turn vs IA), Game 11327526 (josko/Foxglove sitting for Astoriana when Astoriana had been online whilst his turn was due), plus several involving GLG where he covered for team mates.

[josko.ri]

I am glad that this came to official procedure rather than flaming me on forums that I abuse the system without confirmation from officials. There are a lot of evidence from like 2 months period, so I need some time to read it all and put rebuttal evidence which proves that there were no abuse in the sitting done.
Thanks

[comic boy]

I am glad that this came to official procedure rather than flaming me on forums that I abuse the system without confirmation from officials. There are a lot of evidence from like 2 months period, so I need some time to read it all and put rebuttal evidence which proves that there were no abuse in the sitting done.
Thanks

Josko
The important thing is that you acknowledge that such incidents have happened on a regular basis , whether deliberate or not I would not know but there is a pattern . Whatever the outcome of this report it should not be difficult for your clan to put in place safeguards to prevent this happening again in the future.

[Rodion]

2/7 = 38%?

That explains a lot.

[Chariot of Fire]

2/7 = 38%?

That explains a lot.

64/168 = 38%

Or do you work from midnight Sunday to midnight Friday in your (non-math-related) job?

[John Deere]

Wow there is a lot of evidence,. I for one think this crap needs to stop from every clan! It gets old guys! We at the PACK have struggled very bad because we CHOOSE not to play players that cant take there own turns! Yes we have to sit at times when players have things come up but are not abusing the system. We are in the middle of loosing our first war due to this and other things but so be it. We will loose with pride and know we lost to great players fairly! Its sad people cheat to win but hey, if it makes you feel better as a person..... That is not just too josko, but to all that feel the need to cheat.

[SirSebstar]

is all your evidence as reliable and equal to your math of my not being able to take my turn at 2012-11-18 19:22:34 and posting at Nov 19, 2012 8:03 pm. Which like you know is not 41 minutes but 1481 minutes later? So a full day plus 41 minutes?
Equally, other evidence (to the contrary)seems to be lacking, but then its not your job to invent counter evidence, you invent only what you want to see. sigh

Accused:

josko.ri
Moonchild

The accused are suspected of:

i) Systematic sitting abuse
ii) Entering a player into games in the knowledge he will be absent
iii) Gaining an unfair advantage in complex unlimited fort games

Game number(s):

Game 11960113*
Game 11960055*
Game 11960154
Game 11926485*
Game 11895784*
Game 11895783*
Game 11895782
Game 11859148
Game 11859147*
Game 11673703*
Game 11665183
Game 11590571
Game 11590570*

The above 13 games all featured sitting of Moonchild, with unlimited fort settings, and in addition there are 20 other tournament team games (not listed) featuring Moonchild that were set-up by KORT since early September. Total 33 games.

Comments:

i) Any experienced CC player will tell you that unlimited forts is a complex setting whose most difficult moves (and greatest input) are in Round 1. I have marked with a * against 8 of the 13 games above the instances where a KORT player - Moonchild in 7 of 8 - has been covered by the team's best player in the very first round.

ii) It is apparent (from game chat in Game 11558832) that since the beginning of September Moonchild has been unable to log in to CC unless from his work PC (see comment here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=179479&start=45#p3970685 which means for 38% of the week he is unable to take his own turns.

iii) KORT has a member list running to 30 players, approx 25-26 of whom are active. Why then are they putting a player into games who they know cannot play his own turns on such a regular basis.

iv) More alarmingly, why are 40% of the games he is entered in with unlimited forts, especially when such a high incidence of first round turns are not taken by him but by josko?

Some interesting info on the games (I've only covered the 13 unlimited forts games listed above, not the entire 33) as follows:

Game 11960113 - josko took Moonchild's first turn. Moonchild could have taken this himself on 23rd Nov but left it to josko to play later.
Game 11926485 - josko played his turn less than 3 hours after the preceding player, thus ensuring Moonchild's turn would fall due over the weekend. This is contrary to the remark made by josko contained here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=179479&start=45#p3970685 wherein he states in Pt.1 that he will stall his turn to avoid having to sit for Moonchild. Also in this game josko covered for Sir Sebstar in Round 1 - yet by remarkable coincidence Sir Sebstar was able to return to CC just 41 minutes later and post here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=135788&p=3961622#p3961622
Game 11895784 - blue plays just 4 hours after the previous turn, thus ensuring Moonchild's turn will have to be covered over the weekend
Game 11895783 - turn fell due and could have been played on the 16th by Moonchild, yet it was left to josko
Game 11673703 - josko took his turn after just 82 minutes, again ensuring Moonchild's turn would have to be covered by him over the weekend
Game 11590570 - 23rd September (Sunday) Moonchild plays his own turn. So does he have Internet or not? Or was the sitting not posted in chat, and if so how many more instances of this have occurred? Also in this game another KORT player had his 1st turn taken (by Nimic) and subsequently josko sat again for Moonchild.

Make from it what you will, but on the evidence it would appear there is a routine practice of entering Moonchild in KORT challenge/tourney games when he is known to be absent for a great part of that time. And when 40% of those games involve unlimited forts - which josko conveniently covers - then it would appear an unfair advantage is being gained by KORT using these settings in conjunction with a practice of sitting abuse. So far, judging from the results, this has served them very well against AOC, Pack, Dynasty, OSA and again (just commencing) AOC.

Thank you

p.s. lots more examples of KORT's sitting practice in unlimited fort games may be seen here: Game 11037499 (josko sitting 1st turn vs IA), Game 11327526 (josko/Foxglove sitting for Astoriana when Astoriana had been online whilst his turn was due), plus several involving GLG where he covered for team mates.

[#1_stunna]

[comic boy]

Sir Sebstar
How exactly does one error distract from a repeated pattern of turns covered by Josko ? One could easily assume that you were trying to muddy the waters , trying to cover something up even , dare I say perhaps attempting to defuse a potentially embarassing situation.
Now as a highly respected member of the moderating team Im certain that these things never remotely crossed your mind , just as Im certain that Moonchilds frequent and convenient absences were merely all unfortunate coincidences.
Do be aware though that there are many out there who are far more cynical and less trusting than little old me , they might be jumping to sinister conclusions. As I said before , whats done is done , all the explanations and excuses in the world wont change that , your energies are best spent therefore in ensuring it doesn't happen again.

[Leehar]

Sir Sebstar
How exactly does one error distract from a repeated pattern of turns covered by Josko ? One could easily assume that you were trying to muddy the waters , trying to cover something up even , dare I say perhaps attempting to defuse a potentially embarassing situation.

Or it could just be that if there's 1 mistake that he's picked up (Because it's one that related to him), how many others could have been deliberately inculcated to buff up this accusation?
Unlikely, but you can see how the cynicism you're expounding can be played both ways, specially considering the history between the 2 clans concerned, and the 2 respective parties as well.

With that being said, there is a case here in that "josko for Moonchild" happens a lot. S
My understanding of the accusation is that it mostly revolves around whether sitting for someone every weekend (2/7 days) is excessive and thus a 'gross abuse of the game'.

CoF's claim is that if it's known that he's going to be unavailable for such a relatively long time and prolonged period, Moonchild shouldn't be playing clan games at all. While Kort's reasoning is that it's unfair to exclude a player from such a crucial part of CC life as clan games, and that it's fine to sit for him when he's honestly unavailable and still plays the majority of the games himself.
It's up to the C&A Mods to draw the line here

[comic boy]

The salient point is indeed that " Josko for Moonchild '' has happened an awful lot , that is indisputable and it is in the interests of all that it stops forthwith.

[Rodion]

2/7 = 38%?

That explains a lot.

64/168 = 38%

Or do you work from midnight Sunday to midnight Friday in your (non-math-related) job?

I'm sorry. I don't really know when Moon enters and leaves work. You probably know a lot about croatian labour laws as well as Moon's specific schedule. No, I'm not being sarcastic. I actually admire your proven talent as a stalker.

Regardless, being "away from keyboard" 38% of the time does not mean what you're trying to imply, namely that he needs sitting 38% of the time. He can easily play all his games friday night* and not need a sitter for the next 24 hours (saturday night). He also does not need a sitter for turns that started sunday afternoon, as he'll be back monday morning*. The time frame in which he really can't play is pretty small (turns that start between saturday night and sunday morning - roughly). I also happen to know for a fact Josko tries to delay/hasten turns in such a way that Moon's turns will not fall in the weekend, thus avoiding to sit as much as feasibly possible.

* assumptions I believe to be somewhat accurate. For the precise information regarding when Moon leaves friday and enters monday, ask Chariot of Fire.

[MoB Deadly]

Game number(s):

Game 11960113*
Game 11960055*
11960154 - This one does not seem to be the correct game number.
Game 11926485*
Game 11895784*
Game 11895783*
Game 11895782
Game 11859148
Game 11859147*
Game 11673703*
Game 11665183
Game 11590571
Game 11590570*

[L M S]

2/7 = 38%?

That explains a lot.

64/168 = 38%

Or do you work from midnight Sunday to midnight Friday in your (non-math-related) job?

I'm sorry. I don't really know when Moon enters and leaves work. You probably know a lot about croatian labour laws as well as Moon's specific schedule. No, I'm not being sarcastic. I actually admire your proven talent as a stalker.

Regardless, being "away from keyboard" 38% of the time does not mean what you're trying to imply, namely that he needs sitting 38% of the time. He can easily play all his games friday night* and not need a sitter for the next 24 hours (saturday night). He also does not need a sitter for turns that started sunday afternoon, as he'll be back monday morning*. The time frame in which he really can't play is pretty small (turns that start between saturday night and sunday morning - roughly). I also happen to know for a fact Josko tries to delay/hasten turns in such a way that Moon's turns will not fall in the weekend, thus avoiding to sit as much as feasibly possible.

* assumptions I believe to be somewhat accurate. For the precise information regarding when Moon leaves friday and enters monday, ask Chariot of Fire.

So you are saying that as a clan, you know for a fact that Moon WILL always be unavailable at certain regularly scheduled times, yet put him in high profile games regardless of this? Is he just a place holder by name so josko doesn't go over the 20 game limit? Is it coincidence then, the particular settings in the majority of the games cited?
Seems like a fairly systematic method is in place here and a pretty convenient way to get your best player in as many games as possible.
I wouldn't buy my wife a car that didn't work 38% of the time even though I knew I'd be available to tow her home every Saturday night anyway.

[SirSebstar]

its an argument josko can never win can he?! He publicly states that he is sitting, he/moon had explained the situation upfront and agreement was made with people involved. as in people from the other clan.
its obviously not 38%. thats a blatant and misleading lie. it gets repeated even so,. Also, define highprofile games. Are those all games josko is involved with, or just all those with kort in it? Glad to see tofu is getting down to the red meat here.. sigh.

Remains the question if it is okay to sit for someone if its forseeable that he will or might miss turns.(wether or not agreement was made with the other parties involved)
I do think this (discussion)falls slightly outside the scope of C&A though.

[Leehar]

Game number(s):
Game 11960055*
11960154 - This one does not seem to be the correct game number.

Game 11960054

Lucky guess by transposing the 1

The salient point is indeed that " Josko for Moonchild '' has happened an awful lot , that is indisputable and it is in the interests of all that it stops forthwith.

It is why this accusation is relevant, but doesn't necessarily have to be wrong.
The concern would be that this is an indication of Account Sharing, but I'm sure josko and co have done their utmost to try stay within the rules and morals of the guidelines, while being constrained by Moonchilds availability.
If anyone else had done the sitting, would there have been a problem? Perhaps not, since I suspect the primary issue is that it's josko doing the sitting, and thereby using it as a mechanism for gain

[Chariot of Fire]

Game number(s):

Game 11960113*
Game 11960055*
11960154 - This one does not seem to be the correct game number.
Game 11926485*
Game 11895784*
Game 11895783*
Game 11895782
Game 11859148
Game 11859147*
Game 11673703*
Game 11665183
Game 11590571
Game 11590570*

Thank you, fixed (Lee was right).

[Foxglove]

I'm sure it was totally and definitely an oversight due to his zealous enthusiasm to file this report, but there are several lies, untruths, fabrications - call them what you will - in CoF's original post. Some are mentioned previously in this thread, but these are the ones that have been identified so far (and no doubt additional exaggerations and untruths will follow):

1. Lacking internet access for 2 days per week is 28% of a week, not 38%.

2. "Game 11926485 - ... Also in this game josko covered for Sir Sebstar in Round 1 - yet by remarkable coincidence Sir Sebstar was able to return to CC just 41 minutes later and post here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=135788&p=3961622#p3961622"

The difference between the turn and the forum post is 1481 minutes, not 41. A full day + 41 minutes.

3. "Gaining an unfair advantage in complex unlimited fort games" - the numbers prove this to be untrue.

Josko's score in unlimited team games (Triples+Quads) without Moonchild in team: 20/22 (91%)
Josko's score in unlimited team games (Triples+Quads) with Moonchild in team: 27/37 (73%)

Josko's score in all settings team games (Triples+Quads) with Moonchild in team 147/194 (76%)
Josko's score in all settings team games (Triples+Quads) total 263/353 (75%)

By these numbers, we would do best to not allow Moonchild to ever play in Josko's unlimited games. We have clearly received no advantage from doing so.

[comic boy]

Game number(s):
Game 11960055*
11960154 - This one does not seem to be the correct game number.

Game 11960054

Lucky guess by transposing the 1

The salient point is indeed that " Josko for Moonchild '' has happened an awful lot , that is indisputable and it is in the interests of all that it stops forthwith.

It is why this accusation is relevant, but doesn't necessarily have to be wrong.
The concern would be that this is an indication of Account Sharing, but I'm sure josko and co have done their utmost to try stay within the rules and morals of the guidelines, while being constrained by Moonchilds availability.
If anyone else had done the sitting, would there have been a problem? Perhaps not, since I suspect the primary issue is that it's josko doing the sitting, and thereby using it as a mechanism for gain

There are 2 issues at hand here , the first is that Moonchild is entering ( or being entered ) into games in the full knowledge that he will likely not be available for certain turns. This may not constitute cheating but it surely goes against the spirit of the game and I cannot believe that admin would not wish to remark on this.
The second issue is rather more sinister , the question of whether the sitting has been manipulated to gain advantage. Consider that these games happen to be on Joskos favoured settings , that the sitting often occurs on the crucial first turn and that it is always Josko who takes the turn . Lets be honest its too regular and consistent to be a coincidence , advantage is being taken !

[Chariot of Fire]

>Sir Sebstar. I'm not mistaken in my calculations. You were posting in the forum just 41 minutes after your turn would have expired. Hence my comment 'yet by remarkable coincidence' as it serves as another example of josko covering the opening move in an unlimited forts game in addition to the one he had already played - in the same game - for Moonchild.

It was a time when both josko and Moonchild were under the Croatia flag - so who actually knows how long this sitting has gone on for - yet with the former's move to Japan and under a different flag it's another remarkable coincidence perhaps that Moonchild no longer has Internet other than from his workplace and that there's a standing arrangement for josko to cover him at all other times.

And to those who wish to quibble about the 38%......either we take josko's word that Moonchild only has access to CC from work (which from 9am Monday to 5pm Friday is 62% of the week, hence 38% unavailable) or by your very own definition you're unwittingly implying that he can in fact spend longer than this at taking his own turns and therefore josko's sitting may have been unnecessary.

The crux of the matter here is since when is it acceptable to keep fielding a player who is so regularly absent and to keep doing so for a period of, to date, three months? And had I not brought this to light how much longer would this convenient arrangement have gone on for? From now on can all clans start entering 'part time' players into their team games and have their best player cover one third of the time in perpetuity? No, thought not.

[Chariot of Fire]

I'm sure it was totally and definitely an oversight due to his zealous enthusiasm to file this report, but there are several lies, untruths, fabrications - call them what you will - in CoF's original post. Some are mentioned previously in this thread, but these are the ones that have been identified so far (and no doubt additional exaggerations and untruths will follow):

1. Lacking internet access for 2 days per week is 28% of a week, not 38%.

2. "Game 11926485 - ... Also in this game josko covered for Sir Sebstar in Round 1 - yet by remarkable coincidence Sir Sebstar was able to return to CC just 41 minutes later and post here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=135788&p=3961622#p3961622"

The difference between the turn and the forum post is 1481 minutes, not 41. A full day + 41 minutes.

3. "Gaining an unfair advantage in complex unlimited fort games" - the numbers prove this to be untrue.

Josko's score in unlimited team games (Triples+Quads) without Moonchild in team: 20/22 (91%)
Josko's score in unlimited team games (Triples+Quads) with Moonchild in team: 27/37 (73%)

Josko's score in all settings team games (Triples+Quads) with Moonchild in team 147/194 (76%)
Josko's score in all settings team games (Triples+Quads) total 263/353 (75%)

By these numbers, we would do best to not allow Moonchild to ever play in Josko's unlimited games. We have clearly received no advantage from doing so.

Wrong on all counts Foxglove (see my post above), so perhaps it is you that is being a little overzealous and posting "lies, untruths and fabrications"

Yr Pt.1 - is a lie. Moonchild has no access other than from work, not just for two days out of seven. A big difference
Yr Pt.2 - is untrue. When my post says "41 minutes later", i.e. 'after the expiry of Sir Sebstar's turn'
Yr Pt.3 is a fabrication. Why take stats historically back to the start and not just look at the period for which this account sitting has been taking place? If you look at the games cited in the OP there are 13. Of these 13: five are won, one is lost, a further four are about to be won, and three have recently just started. That's a rather remarkable statistic of 9 wins out of 10 for Moonchild's team. It also coincides with over 60% of those 13 games having the first turn taken by someone else - a distinct advantage - and 100% of them having someone sit at some stage. It's rather irrefutable.

[Chewie1]

This looks like its going to be a biggie.

One thing I would add on clan sitting:

If someone is legitamately away on holiday emergencies etc..

Clan members cover.

It is very rare for the same clanmate to constantly cover your turns, several in a row possibly but not exclusively.
You do get exceptions if a certain clan member is an expert on a map, if the player is away and someone notices they are short on time a wall post could be used ie:

Hey chew, ***** is away he is up on Das schloss, I hate that Game I see your on and your the man on it.. can u cover for ***** pls.

But if its a regular map you get game chat that reads:
Chew for **
Josko for **
cof for **
chew again
Sir seb for **

Can u see the point I'm trying to make
Very rare for a clanmates turns to be always covered by 1 player therfore no smoke without fire.

[cowboyz]

at this whole thread.

[deathcomesrippin]

Everyone can thank Cowboyz for ruining the fun for all.

Locked.

[deathcomesrippin]

Josko has been Noted for Account Sitting Abuse

I will point out that the only issue that concerns the C&A Mods in case like this is not the possible unfair account sitting issues for an actual clan game, but the account sitting itself. Josko never joined a game for Moonchild, and announced his taking of the turns and the reason why. So, this does not break any of the rules there. Josko only took turns on the dates he announced, and never logged into Moonchild apart from that. If Moonchild was really unable to take his turns, and he was never online on the weekends mentioned, then this is all above board and from the point of view of a punishable offense, completely okay. This in and of itself excludes Josko from actually suffering from an infraction. In fact, in the Clan Challenge against OSA, Josko informed the opposing Clan leaders of this and it was accepted. This it would seem might need to be an issue someone will need to take up with Clan Mods if they have a problem with it from a purely Clan influenced point of view.

The questionable side of this case, and the side that led to a Noted tag, is the established schedule of of someone taking turns for you, to the extent that it could have been going on for some time. One could easily assume this could be deliberate or another form of account sharing. For Josko and Moonchild to come out not suspicious or if any other players would be in the same situation as this, the right thing to do is to openly announce it as your signature or state it on your profile wall, and must be mentioned in all your games. Moonchild should announced that Josko (or whoever sits for him) will be there each and every weekend. The first step to stopping this as being looked at as abuse is to be completely open about it in every and all games.

This is a singularly unique case insofar as this is the only one we have seen with these exact issues, and with this we needed to take steps to assure that we covered all the ground necessary. I apologize for the delay in the case, and will open the case for awhile to let people respectfully comment. Thank you.