Magyarország [Quenched]

[Oneyed]

Oneyed, do you get some sort of enjoyment out of arguing just to hear yourself argue? Because, unless koontz decides to do it himself, the map is not going to be changed. Your energy would be better focused working on your own maps.

do you understand that how is map made now it is political manifest? so something what also foundry foreman can not have? when you can see I have nothing against theme, which is political manifest and which is common theme of hungarian neofascists. I just noticed historic and geographic mistakes.

I do not know why is koontz so stubborn and why he can not see his mistakes. he had much notices in other maps and people "must" follow his advices because he is foundry assistant - he gives stamp which move maps from drafting room.

it is not just me, when you can see. and I bet if in the foundry will be more Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes, Serbs or Rumanians they will also notice his errors.

did you read this?

Names can be slightly changed if necessary or suggested in the proper way. We don't want to offend people, although the thing should NOT become a "political discussion/talkshow"
It's just a map to play, not a political manifest.

Anyway if someone is aware about better names, please suggest and I'll double check every single one and push koontz if those are correct.
But please don't touch gameplay for a reason that don't belong to a game site.

I'm open to push the mapmakers for improvement but it doesn't have a political discussion or with me, at least on the web, you'll find only closed doors.

Nobodies

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

Oneyed, do you get some sort of enjoyment out of arguing just to hear yourself argue?

Nole, I do not mind the debate and it is fun to have a debate. But this is the wrong place for it. If Oneyed wants to have it, have it in Where the Wild Things Are. I will be more than happy to join in there.

[GoranZ]

There are no similarities between Fractured America or Fractured China with current map. The map represents political concept and Fractured America/China are fantasy maps.

I disagree that this map represents a political concept. Sure, they may be a political concept similar to this map, but this map isn't trying to identify itself with that political concept.

Whats the difference between Greater Hungary (political concept) and Unification of Hungarian Empire? None, they are one of the same thing, so the map is heavily relying on that political concept.
What is even worse the concept is based on DISTORTION OF HISTORY *, and that has nothing to do with fantasy.
*) Borrowed from Greater Hungary (political concept)

After the Treaty of Trianon, a political concept known as Hungarian revisionism became popular in Hungary. The Treaty of Trianon was an injury for the Hungarian people, and Hungarian revisionists have created a nationalistic ideology with the political goal of the restoration of borders of historical pre-Trianon Kingdom of Hungary.

The justification for this aim usually followed the fact that two-thirds of the country's area was taken by the neighboring countries with approximately 3 million Hungarians living in these territories...

Now since we all agree that the map is good, can it be altered to represent real history instead of its distortion? Otherwise I'm against making of the map(or any other map that is based on distortion of history)

[tkr4lf]

There are no similarities between Fractured America or Fractured China with current map. The map represents political concept and Fractured America/China are fantasy maps.

I disagree that this map represents a political concept. Sure, they may be a political concept similar to this map, but this map isn't trying to identify itself with that political concept.

Whats the difference between Greater Hungary (political concept) and Unification of Hungarian Empire? None, they are one of the same thing, so the map is heavily relying on that political concept.
What is even worse the concept is based on DISTORTION OF HISTORY *, and that has nothing to do with fantasy.
*) Borrowed from Greater Hungary (political concept)

After the Treaty of Trianon, a political concept known as Hungarian revisionism became popular in Hungary. The Treaty of Trianon was an injury for the Hungarian people, and Hungarian revisionists have created a nationalistic ideology with the political goal of the restoration of borders of historical pre-Trianon Kingdom of Hungary.

The justification for this aim usually followed the fact that two-thirds of the country's area was taken by the neighboring countries with approximately 3 million Hungarians living in these territories...

Now since we all agree that the map is good, can it be altered to represent real history instead of its distortion? Otherwise I'm against making of the map(or any other map that is based on distortion of history)

I believe it's called Alternate History, and there are entire works based around it. I guess you can call it Distortion, if you have an ulterior motive (political agenda), but that doesn't make it so. It's Alternate History, and as such is a work of fantasy.

It would be no different from making a map of the present-day countries that once made up the Roman Empire, with all the terits called by their Roman names, with the goal of re-uniting the Roman Empire. Sure, some people might be offended because they would never want to be a part of the Roman Empire again, but those people would need to realize that it is a work of fantasy and meant as some alternate history/fantasy to have fun with. No political statements. Just fun.

[Dukasaur]

I'm open to push the mapmakers for improvement but it doesn't have a political discussion or with me, at least on the web, you'll find only closed doors.

But as the map is proposed it has enormous political influence.

The problem is this: What if someone tries to make a map of unification of Great Moravia? It will consist of present day Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary and small parts of Ukraine, Poland and Romania. I'm sure that the idea will have huge support among all Slavic nationalities on this site, and huge disapproval from Hungarians. I'll give you why for the map if needed... "All Slavic nations will be connected". Everyone can correctly guess what will be the main goal of the map.
But from present day Unification of Great Moravia is only a desire that has around 0% chances to be achieved, more or less similarly as Unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

And what if everyone starts to make maps from mixture of desires and Countries/Cities... where will that lead?

It will lead to some good games, that's where.

What are you doing if you play a Napoleonic wargame? You are playing a scenario predicated on Napoleon's desire to rule Europe. That doesn't mean you are a Napoleon worshiper, or that you're French, or even that you like the French. It simply means you enjoy taking on the challenge and seeing thing from his viewpoint.

What are you doing when you play Third Reich, or one of its variants (probably the most common wargame type in the entire world)? You are pretending that you're the German High Command, trying to take over the world. It doesn't mean that you're a Nazi in real life, or that you're German, or that you even sympathize with 1% of the Nazi agenda. It's just fun to imagine yourself in that position, wielding that much power, and showing that you could use it better than the people who actually had it.

What are you doing when you play a game like Crusader Kings? You are pretending that you are a great Crusader, leading your armies to the Holy Land to butcher Mohammedan scum. That does not mean you hate Muslims in real life, it doesn't even mean that you're a good Catholic, and it certainly doesn't mean that in real life you would want to spend 10 years traveling through hostile lands, looting and pillaging just to eat. Hell, most of us, with our 20th Century city-bred sensibilities, would probably vomit if we really had to chop someone up with a sword. But it's fun to pretend.

I will gladly play this Magyar-perspective map, even though I am not a Magyar. Make that map of Greater Moravia, and I will gladly play that too! Make a map of Greater Somalia, and I will gladly play that too, even though I'm not Somalian. Make a map of Mussolini's aspirations for a New Roman Empire, and I will play that too, although I'm not Italian and I'm not a fascist.

I once designed a gaming scenario based on the premise that the French succeeded in kicking the British out of North America and the whole thing was French. In real life, I'm a big supporter of the British parliamentary system, and I'm glad the British won. But that doesn't stop me from being able, in a game, to immerse myself in hating the British and kicking their ass off the continent. If you are unable to make this kind of leap, then you are letting yourself get too straight-jacketed by your real-life bias.

[tkr4lf]

I'm open to push the mapmakers for improvement but it doesn't have a political discussion or with me, at least on the web, you'll find only closed doors.

But as the map is proposed it has enormous political influence.

The problem is this: What if someone tries to make a map of unification of Great Moravia? It will consist of present day Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary and small parts of Ukraine, Poland and Romania. I'm sure that the idea will have huge support among all Slavic nationalities on this site, and huge disapproval from Hungarians. I'll give you why for the map if needed... "All Slavic nations will be connected". Everyone can correctly guess what will be the main goal of the map.
But from present day Unification of Great Moravia is only a desire that has around 0% chances to be achieved, more or less similarly as Unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

And what if everyone starts to make maps from mixture of desires and Countries/Cities... where will that lead?

It will lead to some good games, that's where.

What are you doing if you play a Napoleonic wargame? You are playing a scenario predicated on Napoleon's desire to rule Europe. That doesn't mean you are a Napoleon worshiper, or that you're French, or even that you like the French. It simply means you enjoy taking on the challenge and seeing thing from his viewpoint.

What are you doing when you play Third Reich, or one of its variants (probably the most common wargame type in the entire world)? You are pretending that you're the German High Command, trying to take over the world. It doesn't mean that you're a Nazi in real life, or that you're German, or that you even sympathize with 1% of the Nazi agenda. It's just fun to imagine yourself in that position, wielding that much power, and showing that you could use it better than the people who actually had it.

What are you doing when you play a game like Crusader Kings? You are pretending that you are a great Crusader, leading your armies to the Holy Land to butcher Mohammedan scum. That does not mean you hate Muslims in real life, it doesn't even mean that you're a good Catholic, and it certainly doesn't mean that in real life you would want to spend 10 years traveling through hostile lands, looting and pillaging just to eat. Hell, most of us, with our 20th Century city-bred sensibilities, would probably vomit if we really had to chop someone up with a sword. But it's fun to pretend.

I will gladly play this Magyar-perspective map, even though I am not a Magyar. Make that map of Greater Moravia, and I will gladly play that too! Make a map of Greater Somalia, and I will gladly play that too, even though I'm not Somalian. Make a map of Mussolini's aspirations for a New Roman Empire, and I will play that too, although I'm not Italian and I'm not a fascist.

I once designed a gaming scenario based on the premise that the French succeeded in kicking the British out of North America and the whole thing was French. In real life, I'm a big supporter of the British parliamentary system, and I'm glad the British won. But that doesn't stop me from being able, in a game, to immerse myself in hating the British and kicking their ass off the continent. If you are unable to make this kind of leap, then you are letting yourself get too straight-jacketed by your real-life bias.

+1
Well said.

[thenobodies80]

Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

Nobodies

[Oneyed]

Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

Nobodies

I can not discus here more. I wrote several reasons what, why is wrong.
just tell me - when I good understand, nobodies, this means that foundry (cartographers) do not care if any map has historic or geographic errors?
this means that any mapmakers can change history or names by their free will?

Oneyed

[GoranZ]

Now since we all agree that the map is good, can it be altered to represent real history instead of its distortion? Otherwise I'm against making of the map(or any other map that is based on distortion of history)

I believe it's called Alternate History, and there are entire works based around it. I guess you can call it Distortion, if you have an ulterior motive (political agenda), but that doesn't make it so. It's Alternate History, and as such is a work of fantasy.[/quote]
lol Alternate history, you made me lough a lot. Just don't say that you play from Alternate Universe...

Napoleonic wargame, Third Reich, German High Command, Crusader Kings...

Some of your enlisted maps/concepts are accurate historical events, both Napoleon and Hitler almost conquer the world and Crusaders capture Jerusalem several times... and that is represented in those maps. It happened so there can not be hard feelings among anyone . On the other hand Unification of Hungary never happen, it was political manifest of Hungarian fascists.

Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

Nobodies

You are mixing few things, probably intentionally, tho IDK why... no one is asking the story of the map to be changed because of political reasons but because of Historical accuracy(enlisted in previous posts). As it is the map represent fascist manifest for unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

[thenobodies80]

Exactly, that's why I won't allow changes for political reasons on this map or others. I will change my opinion only if the request is done because the map represents in some way something that is against being human or it's cruelty just for the sake of it (concentration camp map) or again it has a swastika on it (site decision)
If you think the map has these type of elements on it, explain me where and i will see what can be done.

On the opposite it's just a map...I don't think someone will start a revolutionary project with it. If some people will be happy to play it for political reasons...sorry but those people have serious problems imo.
Change the map is not the solution.....It's like say that no one can park his car outside in the streets when there's a football match because extreme supporters can burn the cars. Even if you do that, they will find something else to burn. the solution is not allow this people to burn things not hide the cars.

Said that, I really don't want people is offended by a map and i'm not happy if you live in place where there are such politcal problems....but what you're asking is set a bad bad precedent that in future can be used for every map. (e.g. vegetarians people don't want the cow map because they are against kill cows)

Nobodies

I can not discus here more. I wrote several reasons what, why is wrong.
just tell me - when I good understand, nobodies, this means that foundry (cartographers) do not care if any map has historic or geographic errors?
this means that any mapmakers can change history or names by their free will?

Oneyed

if there's a reason, consistency on the whole map and an explanation for that, yes...it depends what the mapmaker is trying to do.
No one has never said that we made world cartography to explore the world or as archive for future generations.
As i always said we are not national gepgraphic or a cartographic archive, we're just on a world domination playing site, so maps must be fun and balanced...nothing else.

Like I said in a previous post, italy map is not the real/perfect representation of the italian country; it's just the mapmaker vision of it. I can't send a pm to Rjbeals and tell him that his map is wrong because in real life italiy is not in that way and expect he changes the map; on the other hand i can say him that cities are assigned very bad (that is a well know issue with that map) and that thing should have fixed when the map was developed.

This is the distinction I've always tried to explain to you and the same thing King Achilles has explained to you with his pm (the movie example).
Obviously if your focus is to try to represent the history or geography of a region, then you need to be accurate....but in the ends it only depends on what you're trying to achieve.

[thenobodies80]

As it is the map represent fascist manifest for unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

If it is in that way, please explain in detail why, what and where things on the map make it a political fascist manifest.
So you're saying that koontz is a fascist and he is trying to made a political manifest as propaganda for his ideas? I doubt it is in that way...but please explain you reasoning, i'm all ears.

[GoranZ]

As it is the map represent fascist manifest for unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

If it is in that way, please explain in detail why, what and where things on the map make it a political fascist manifest.
So you're saying that koontz is a fascist and he is trying to made a political manifest as propaganda for his ideas? I doubt it is in that way...but please explain you reasoning, i'm all ears.

Ok... Greater Hungary aka Unification of Kingdom of Hungary is fascist Arrow Cross Party political concept. I enlist quotes of what Arrow Cross Party is and what was its political concept about the issue.

The Arrow Cross Party was a national socialist party led by Ferenc Szálasi, which led in Hungary a government known as the Government of National Unity from 15 October 1944 to 28 March 1945. During its short rule, ten to fifteen thousand people (many of whom were Jews) were murdered outright, and 80,000 people were deported from Hungary to their deaths in the Auschwitz concentration camp. After the war, Szálasi and other Arrow Cross leaders were tried as war criminals by Soviet courts.

From section: Rise to power

The Arrow Cross subscribed to the Nazi ideology of "master races" which, in Szálasi's view, included the Hungarians and Germans, and it also supported the concept of an order based on the power of the strongest – what Szálasi called a "brutally realistic étatism". However, its espousal of territorial claims under the banner of a "Greater Hungary" and Hungarian values (which Szálasi labelled "Hungarizmus" or "Hungarianism") clashed with Nazi ambitions in central Europe, delaying by several years Hitler's endorsement of that party.

Sources used:
Arrow Cross Party
Greater Hungary

I'm not even asking for the map to be abandoned... I'm only asking for the correct historical facts to be presented, mainly in the story of the map and minimal change in the names of the bonuses.

P.S. I never called koontz fascist or supported of fascists, nor I will, don't label me with words that I have not said.

[Oneyed]

look here nobodies and make your own opinion.

this is about one of the strongest political party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik

and this is their opinion on Trianon. I must notice that Jobbik is official political party, so they presentation is moderated.
http://jobbik.com/gabor_vona_europe_kep ... _interview

Oneyed

EDIT: and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixty-Four ... h_Movement

[nolefan5311]

This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.

[GoranZ]

This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.

Welcome to Europe ... Now you can understand why European Union project MUST work

[Oneyed]

This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.

I tell you what is not incredibly ridiculous, but plaintively. I from the start of this map noticed several errors (which could be easy edited without change of gameplay), I also noticed that this theme has neo fascist tone. and nobody cares...

and incredible ridiculous is how stubborn is koontz - he did not change anything and how stubborn is your support. I never saw here another mapmaker who negate all advices and help. because help to do better accuracy map was my intention.

Oneyed

[nolefan5311]

This whole thing is so incredibly ridiculous.

I tell you what is not incredibly ridiculous, but plaintively. I from the start of this map noticed several errors (which could be easy edited without change of gameplay), I also noticed that this theme has neo fascist tone. and nobody cares...

and incredible ridiculous is how stubborn is koontz - he did not change anything and how stubborn is your support. I never saw here another mapmaker who negate all advices and help. because help to do better accuracy map was my intention.

Oneyed

No, it's ridiculous. You're taking what is supposed to be a fun website and acting as if your future is at risk. You know why nobody cares? Because IT DOESN'T MATTER. If you feel so strongly, make your own map about the region. And you know what? NOBODY WILL CARE about the political implications of your map, either. I realize I'm beating my head against the wall talking to you about this, but you just need to realize that when the webmaster uploads the map and the xml, it will be released into play as it is currently constituted (unless, of course, lack or tnb decide it needs changes).

And get your facts straight Oneyed. I support koontz as a mapmaker and the freedom he has to make a map the way he wants it made, regardless of how many people think the political implications of the map are offensive. I don't support any political idealogy associated with any map, because IT DOESN'T MATTER.

[tkr4lf]

Now since we all agree that the map is good, can it be altered to represent real history instead of its distortion? Otherwise I'm against making of the map(or any other map that is based on distortion of history)

I believe it's called Alternate History, and there are entire works based around it. I guess you can call it Distortion, if you have an ulterior motive (political agenda), but that doesn't make it so. It's Alternate History, and as such is a work of fantasy.

lol Alternate history, you made me lough a lot. Just don't say that you play from Alternate Universe...

Ever heard of the Command and Conquer series of RTS Strategy games? In particular, have you ever heard of Command and Conquer: Red Alert?

It's a game based on the idea that Einstein traveled back in time, killed Hitler before he could take power in Germany, and altered the course of history. You get back to the future and now Soviet Russia under the leadership of Stalin is attacking all of Europe. Without Hitler and WW2 happening, Stalin built up power until he could challenge all of Europe. Each side has some fantastic weaponry, like Tesla Coils for the Soviets and Chronospheres for the Allies. You can play as either the Soviets or the Allies, and the goal is to either take over all of Europe, or to halt Russia's advance and proceed to take it over, deposing Stalin.

That is called Alternate History. It's taking what actually happened in history, and changing something, to make something else happen. It's commonly used in games, books, movies, etc. It works particularly well for games, in my opinion, since it let's you play out how it could happen if only this had happened, instead of that.

Do you understand now?

[thehippo8]

Well, if Oneyed was playing Devil's advocate (and I know he wasn't so bear with me if you think I'm deluded) this debate has been nothing short of brilliant! Sure, there may be a few people falling off the edge, but we can stick out our hand and pull them back up easy as pie. But cutting through all the friction, this has been a great debate and I've enjoyed it immensely.

Can we play the map now?

[iancanton]

is it acceptable to everyone to keep the map with existing gameplay (or possibly with oneyed's rearrangement of árva and szepes), but simply change the story? if the map is dated before the treaty of trianon is signed, then hungarian names for the regions were the official names. i've drafted an example of how the story might read.

After the Great War of 1914-18, Europe lies in ruins. The Treaty of Trianon, which is being negotiated, will reduce the Kingdom of Hungary to 28% of its pre-war size. While foreign powers are still bickering over the spoils, stage an uprising and unite the country under your leadership.

ian.

[koontz1973]

New images with ians story.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[Oneyed]

this is the second constructive step from blue guy here. and the first one which realy brings functional solving. thanks ian

is it acceptable to everyone to keep the map with existing gameplay (or possibly with oneyed's rearrangement of árva and szepes), but simply change the story?

this will be wonder... (and maybe change name of Turoc to Trencsén).

if the map is dated before the treaty of trianon is signed, then hungarian names for the regions were the official names. i've drafted an example of how the story might read.

After the Great War of 1914-18, Europe lies in ruins. The Treaty of Trianon, which is being negotiated, will reduce the Kingdom of Hungary to 28% of its pre-war size. While foreign powers are still bickering over the spoils, stage an uprising and unite the country under your leadership.

ian.

nice. maybe better say: ...and save the Kingdom under your leadership?

just also name of map could be realy Magyar Kiralysag - this was official name of Hungary and also because from this view the gameplay is about to unite (better said - save the Kingdom).

and this is my very last post here.
koontz from the start I try to help you. from the start you ignore all my advices about Slovak area, but you follow all advices about Hungary area. a little doleful... especially because my advices realy help to have better map.

ones more thanks ian, you have my big apprecation.

Oneyed

[tkr4lf]

is it acceptable to everyone to keep the map with existing gameplay (or possibly with oneyed's rearrangement of árva and szepes), but simply change the story? if the map is dated before the treaty of trianon is signed, then hungarian names for the regions were the official names. i've drafted an example of how the story might read.

After the Great War of 1914-18, Europe lies in ruins. The Treaty of Trianon, which is being negotiated, will reduce the Kingdom of Hungary to 28% of its pre-war size. While foreign powers are still bickering over the spoils, stage an uprising and unite the country under your leadership.

ian.

In my opinion, that completely changes what the map is about. I personally like the story as is. But it's up to Koontz, so whatever he decides. Just know that you have support for your original idea as well as to change it.

[thenobodies80]

I've spent some time tonight reading the links you posted.
I think we can work together, and I'm happy to see that you're already doing it, to reword the text of the story. I think that it's the only thing, if I have to find one, that could create such type of political connection. I don't think that this map will be a shame for the site if quenched now. Persoanlly I think that the real shame is that such people is allowed to seat in a european parlament, where the main concept is to go beyond differences or nationalist concepts, but this is not the right place to discuss this, like I've always said.

maybe better say: ...and save the Kingdom under your leadership?

Are you sure? if I have to follow your thoughts and the contents I've read in the links, the above text you posted does the opposite imo, like that the current hungary is in ruin. I think that "save the kingdom" is exactly the political concept that that political group is using to find some followers.
Personally I find ian's version really good. Or instead use the old version koontz had on the map but without the last period. Personally I don't think it's necessary to say that you have to reunite the kingdom of hungary, this becuase there's no a real-explicit objective on the map...just people will fight to control that area. Yeah maybe the story can suffer a bit for this, but I don't think it will ruin the map.

P.S. I never called koontz fascist or supported of fascists, nor I will, don't label me with words that I have not said.

It wasn't my intention to point the finger against you, sorry if you think i did. Simply I tried to demonstrate that there are no "hidden" political messages on the map, like nolefan has also tried to explain. Real politic doesn't matter here. If someone will try to create an explicit political manifesto with a map I will bin and lock that map in a second. Then if the map has common points with that party ideas, i think it's just a case due the regions represented.

I'm a bit busy today, but i will review the list of names you posted here asap to see if some other of them can be changed accordingly your suggestions.

Nobodies

[koontz1973]

Over the story, I was happy with what it was (many people contributed to it including Oneyed and GoranZ) and would of liked to of kept it. ian posted his thoughts on it and I could not find a fault with it. Both are good but to keep the peace and to try and get this thread back to the map and away from the politics, but given a choice, I would use the previous version. Shame politics came into this, which had not come up in the thread till very recently. But I digress.