mc05025 [CLEARED] BG

[mudfighter]

Accused:

mc05025

The accused are suspected of:

Other: Abusing the rules of the game (and simple-mindedness to post this on the wall of the c&a moderator ) - deadbeating at the and of a game with round limit, so that the teammate gets all the troops and they win the game.

Game number(s):

Game 11328764

Comments:
Take a look at the wall
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=459024

If he should decide to delete it, here is the text: (I took a screenshot as well)

hello. Do I know you? I intentionally missing my turns at that game in order to take advantage of the bad rules of the game. Is it that ok? PS I would be glad to change it because now I can not really play that kind of game (team game with round limit) which seems very interesting to me. When I started the games I did not think of that, I thought it at the end of the games

User avatar
by mc05025
on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:01 am

[Frox333]

made a revisio0n, this is illegal, but he should just be warned, not go on to 4 pages u idiots. i know so many deadbeaters on this site, and when he deadbeats once, u all go "shall we question is rank". but he should be warned and/or noted of this. he should be a role modl for us

[Jdsizzleslice]

I don't think so...

[josko.ri]

fact that he is using loophole in bad rules about round limits does not change abuse that he is breaking rule of the site that intentional deadbeating is not allowed.

no abuse considering round limit rule
yes abuse considering intentional deadbeating.

though he may still no deadbeat so he will avoid any abuse.

[MoB Deadly]

Still need at least 5 examples of Intentional Deadbeating I believe

[Kaskavel]

Hello, I am mc's partner in this game and I would like ot add some things.

1. I am the creator of this game. I have played many double games in hive, with both mc and other players. At some point one of my partners whom I do not even know, tired of playing on and on a completely won game, asked me if I ever thought of adding a round limit. I thought about it a few seconds, thought about the consequences of having to adjust the tactics to have a "strong" player etc but I didnt think about this possibility. I created a new set of games with round limit 20 with various partners. It soon occured to me this problem after the games had started. Theoriticaly, except from a completely won game, in all other cases, both teams should deadbeat on round 18, especialy the team playing first who does not know what team 2 will do. After noticing this option, and it is something I disliked of course, I did not start new games in this settings, I started 2 games at round limit 30, which significaly reduces this senario. Everything happening is not intentional, it is just bad settings that are not going to be repeated from me. I also informed all 4 of my partners in those games about this option.
2. This tactic has already been applied by our opponents in other games (not with mc) and we reacted accordingly. In fact it was funny, because we both deadbeated on round 18 and then our opponents played normaly on round 19 (they were losing with both teams deadbeating) and so did we. Did both teams cheated?
3. From my part, I am willing to advice my partner to follow moderator's instructions in case he/they suggest that such an action is illegal. Yet, there are some further consequences here, as noted below.
4. Claiming this action illegal will lead to further reports since this tactic has been applied to many games before this one in this kind of situation. Especialy hive is a powerful root for this problem. No matter what, your army is huge and deadbeating will always benefit the team.
5. Many players are intentionaly deadbeating for other reasons also, not taking spoils, not losing troops from killer neutrals, giving the impression they will be forfeited and thus inviting the remaining players to kill each other, avoid taking a major decision like to which partner the troops will be added or from which direction we will try to break a bonus, delaying the end of the game for various reasons, etc not to mention what may happen in freestyle games. Also, I always deadbeat lost 1 vs 1 speed hive games after politely asking my opponent if they are OK with it and most of my opponents losing the game do the same, it needs 6-10 rounds to clean up the hive map, depending by whether losing player suicided or not, are all those cases rule abuse? Do we really want to get involved in all that?
6. Rules state in "unwritten rules" that intentionaly deadbeating is abuse but we should really be careful in intercepting the meaning of that. That was created (in my opinion at least) to prevent people from delaying games and throwing games. If the rule gets further enforced in tactical and strategical cases of intentionaly deadbeatings, which have as a goal to lead to the win of the game, then we will have to reconsider many things. Practicaly, in this case, if my team gets asked to make their turn, the result is that we are asked to do something that will lead to the loss of a game that would otherwise be won. Do not take this point lightly please, it is of critical importance and it will create an example for the future. Be careful for forcing players to make unfavourable moves.
7. It is not appropriate to discuss it here, but it is obvious that the problem starts from the combination of two strange rules. 1. Forfieted player's troops in a team game are given to next survivng partner and 2. Team games with round limits are not decided by the team's total troops but from the leading player's troops for each team. This combination is catastrophic in many situations like hive games.

[Kaskavel]

And of course, dear accuser, if my p wanted to deadbeat pretending he "lost" his turns, he would not have written in mod's wall asking his opinion. He is doing that move on purpose and is not hiding it. He is well known for being an honest player. No need for... screenshots.

[BGtheBrain]

It's going to take time to come to an official ruling.
If it were me, Id take the turn. I wouldnt want to risk the consequences.

Both of you admit its an exploitation. You shouldnt need an official ruling telling you not to do it.

Take responsibility yourself and do the right thing. Or do what you want, and blame CC's exploit for letting you do it.

There is precedent to punish for exploiting a game feature.

[Kaskavel]

8. A final point I forgot to mention, sorry for the long posts. Is it fair to allow games where partner gets forfeited troops and team with most troops wins but not allow them to deadbeat? When someone deadbeats, are we going to search if he did that on purpose? How? It is a very dangerous road.

In any case, if the rules were up to me, then, no matter what the decision here, I would change the rule about the leading player from each team. Yes, it does create some interesting options, but it also creates many problems like this one.

[hmsps]

8. A final point I forgot to mention, sorry for the long posts. Is it fair to allow games where partner gets forfeited troops and team with most troops wins but not allow them to deadbeat? When someone deadbeats, are we going to search if he did that on purpose? How? It is a very dangerous road.

In any case, if the rules were up to me, then, no matter what the decision here, I would change the rule about the leading player from each team. Yes, it does create some interesting options, but it also creates many problems like this one.

It only creates interesting options if someone deadbeats the game, if people actually play the game the way its meant to be played and not constantly looking for loopholes then we wouldn't have these issues. I do actually applaud MC for bringing these to the mods attention beforehand so they can at least draw up rules to prevent this in the future

[Kaskavel]

It's going to take time to come to an official ruling.
If it were me, Id take the turn. I wouldnt want to risk the consequences.

Both of you admit its an exploitation. You shouldnt need an official ruling telling you not to do it.

Take responsibility yourself and do the right thing. Or do what you want, and blame CC's exploit for letting you do it.

There is precedent to punish for exploiting a game feature.

No, I never admitted to be an exploitation. The opposite. I consider it to be the correct move. The forced move if you like. I consider clicking begin turn to be equilevant to throwing a game, to suiciding. Like I have the choice of one good move and one bad move and I decide the latter. I do not know what my partner will do, but if it was me taking the decision, I would deadbeat the whole game unless you rule it as ilegal in which case I would make my move. But I would ask for a certain and specific information about whether this is legal or not. I am currently playing 5 more games in hive with round limit. Our opponents have made and will make again this decision. Are we to follow or not?

[MoB Deadly]

Both of you admit its an exploitation. You shouldnt need an official ruling telling you not to do it.

Letting your 1 hour timer run out so you do not receive a card in Nuke games is an exploit too, yet it is a legal move.

So how can we know what is acceptable and what isn't by CC without an official stance.

edit

[hmsps]

Both of you admit its an exploitation. You shouldnt need an official ruling telling you not to do it.

Letting your 1 hour timer run out so you do not receive a card in Nuke games is an exploit too, yet it is a legal move.

So how can we know what is acceptable and what isn't by CC an official stance.

Again thats something that needs looking at. I am sure at its inception thats not how it was meant to be used

[Frox333]

lets leave it at this, if u ban 2 bigshots of conquer club for something that wasnt illegal (mco) and for something that he never did (GLG) people are gonna question ur power.

[mc05025]

It's going to take time to come to an official ruling.
If it were me, Id take the turn. I wouldnt want to risk the consequences.

Both of you admit its an exploitation. You shouldnt need an official ruling telling you not to do it.

Take responsibility yourself and do the right thing. Or do what you want, and blame CC's exploit for letting you do it.

There is precedent to punish for exploiting a game feature.

Thanks Kaskavel for covering this.

I did not admit its an exploitation. Actually I was sure it was ok till you sent me a message at my wall.

You have about 3 days (till I miss the last turn) to discuss it and come up to a solution. I do not think that this time is not enough neither that you can punish people for doing something that not even the moderators knows if it is ok or not

[BGtheBrain]

I suppose I couldve punished you for exploiting a game feature and just told you to appeal.
Wouldve been easier and you wouldve had to take the turn.

Instead, I gave you an opportunity to do the right thing. My mistake.

"I intentionally missing my turns at that game in order to take advantage of the bad rules of the game." believe it or not, this is what exploiting is. Taking advantage of something is exploiting it.

[Kaskavel]

lets leave it at this, if u ban 2 bigshots of conquer club for something that wasnt illegal (mco) and for something that he never did (GLG) people are gonna question ur power.

Man thanks for your support, but I do not want to create a problem. We are playing a game and there are arbitors. My partner is asking if a move is legal or not. That simple. A player asks the arbitor if a move is legal, yes or no. We do not have a debate with the arbitors. We have no problem if they say it is illegal, but we want to know it. And be sure we are not going to lose other games by teams using this tactic. Thats all.
What I do not want to happen is to be forced to make our move and lose the game, then lose a couple more games by other teams using this tactic, end up debating for hours in c&a reports and finaly lose the games and the reports because "it cannot be proven that deadbeating was intentional", technicaly being punished for being straight and honest.

[IcePack]

CC: must be the only game I know where honest players have to interpret vague rules and not know whether or not something is against the rules or not. Where rules are made up as you go and interpreted, and you don't get answers in a timely manner and then "punished" for interpreting them "the wrong way" after you asked.

Funny how that works....a clearly defined rule book would eliminate so much nonsense reports (in general, not specific to this case although I believe it applies here as well...)

IcePack

[Kaskavel]

I suppose I couldve punished you for exploiting a game feature and just told you to appeal.
Wouldve been easier and you wouldve had to take the turn.

Instead, I gave you an opportunity to do the right thing. My mistake.

"I intentionally missing my turns at that game in order to take advantage of the bad rules of the game." believe it or not, this is what exploiting is. Taking advantage of something is exploiting it.

I have no opportunity, is is my partner decision. I am just discussing it.

[IcePack]

I suppose I couldve punished you for exploiting a game feature and just told you to appeal.
Wouldve been easier and you wouldve had to take the turn.

Instead, I gave you an opportunity to do the right thing. My mistake.

"I intentionally missing my turns at that game in order to take advantage of the bad rules of the game." believe it or not, this is what exploiting is. Taking advantage of something is exploiting it.

Nothing been exploited yet. The right thing? He is asking what's "the right thing" is according to the rule book and getting vague answers in return. How about the rules get fixed or clarified (or better yet fix the flaw in game, that would be great of features were designed properly before implementing onsite) so that no vague ass rules have to be intrepereted anymore.

I thought that's what you do when you create games, create them properly and with rules. Clear rules. Like the ones you buy in a store that lists them in detail and get clarified properly in FAQ's.

If CC were a board game half the rule book would be a bunch of ?'s marks or "interpret as you see fit"

IcePack

[Kaskavel]

I suppose I couldve punished you for exploiting a game feature and just told you to appeal.
Wouldve been easier and you wouldve had to take the turn.

Instead, I gave you an opportunity to do the right thing. My mistake.

"I intentionally missing my turns at that game in order to take advantage of the bad rules of the game." believe it or not, this is what exploiting is. Taking advantage of something is exploiting it.

Nothing been exploited yet. The right thing? He is asking what's "the right thing" is according to the rule book and getting vague answers in return. How about the rules get fixed or clarified (or better yet fix the flaw in game, that would be great of features were designed properly before implementing onsite) so that no vague ass rules have to be intrepereted anymore.

I thought that's what you do when you create games, create them properly and with rules. Clear rules. Like the ones you buy in a store that lists them in detail and get clarified properly in FAQ's.

If CC were a board game half the rule book would be a bunch of ?'s marks or "interpret as you see fit"

IcePack

You are a bit harsh, I think. Handling those situations is not easy for the mods. Anyway, I want to apologise for the tension our tactic has created. It was not our intention.

[IcePack]

I'm not directing it at BG (though I do think his answer doesn't do anything I help the situation). It's more frustration @ CC for overall how they handle themselves and the rules.
As a part time game designer it's pretty sad to see something like this where details are so vague and good and honest players have to intreperet rules, and punished for asking or getting clarification / not knowing because the rule(s) aren't made ahead of time or thought threw.

Not only that but when rules and features aren't coded in but allowed to be interpreted and give judgement calls without having black and white guidelines. It's appalling.

I Know his job isn't easy. If the rules were clear and concise and more things would be coded in and thought through, it would make jobs like his much much easier.

IcePack

[BGtheBrain]

At the very least it will be inentional deadbeating and noted for the future.

[Seulessliathan]

3. From my part, I am willing to advice my partner to follow moderator's instructions in case he/they suggest that such an action is illegal. Yet, there are some further consequences here, as noted below.

Well, rules say intentional deadbeating is forbidden, abuse of the system is forbidden.
How do you call what mc is doing here, if not intentional deadbeating?

I do not think that this time is not enough neither that you can punish people for doing something that not even the moderators knows if it is ok or not

well, it´s written in the rules, all players and mods know it:

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, holding players hostage, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new recruits.

4. Claiming this action illegal will lead to further reports since this tactic has been applied to many games before this one in this kind of situation. Especialy hive is a powerful root for this problem. No matter what, your army is huge and deadbeating will always benefit the team.

If you notice any kind of rule violation, i am sure mods don´t mind if you report it.

[ahunda]

As I see it, if the game was played to the end, as it was meant to be, it would be a loss for Kaskavel & mc05025. Only by exploiting a loophole / problem in the set-up do they have the chance to turn this into a win. And I don´t get, what´s there to discuss.

There only is need for discussion, if you care more about your precious points than about an honest game. The right thing here is to play it out, lose the game & say gg. Then head to the forums & suggest to fix the loophole, that you became aware of.

I really don´t get the attitude of people here, just as in the GLG case. Yeah, there are problems with the site, there are loopholes, that can be exploited, and it is ok to point them out. It also is ok to be frustrated with the slow reaction from lack in fixing these issues.

But you know: For a loophole to become a problem it also needs people exploiting & taking advantage of it. And somehow there seems to be an attitude here in the community, that winning at all costs, even by abusing loopholes in the system, is totally acceptable, because it´s the systems fault.

What if people had a different attitude and would abstain from exploiting said loopholes and only report them, so that they can be fixed ? But the message here in the forum seems to be: F*ck honesty & integrity, exploit the system & any loophole you can find, because it´s all about winning & points. Sad, really ...