RIP Foundry Avatars

[natty dread]

What I don't understand is why this great bunch of volunteers does not feel supported by Lack. While it seems they have logic and reason behind their dissatisfaction, that actually does not matter. The very fact that they *FEEL* dissatisfied is all that should matter to Lack. That feeling needs to be addressed else you will get what you have here: volunteers not wanting to volunteer. Please, Lack. Care about what these guys feel. They are trying to help. Don't make them feel like they are running into a brick wall.

but why?

they are not required. the foundry is no longer required. maps can be and are now made without the foundry's involvement.

Yeah, super crappy maps.

[DiM]

crappy maps?
i wouldn't call those maps.
more like crappy crap.

[DiM]

also you have to realise that the foundry has been ignored for many years and yet it continued to produce maps.
if we were to rebel and boycott CC(*) when this whole neglect started, CC would have less than 50 maps and most of them would be the unrevamped versions. so i doubt greenoaks would come in and say the foundry is not needed when he'd have just a bunch of bad-looking maps to play on.
so probably the foundry's biggest mistake was not making a fuss when lack's first deadline came and he gave us nothing. instead we got fooled with empty promises of things that never came.

(*)assuming all mapmakers would have the balls to participate in such a boycott.

[greenoaks]

also you have to realise that the foundry has been ignored for many years and yet it continued to produce maps.
if we were to rebel and boycott CC(*) when this whole neglect started, CC would have less than 50 maps and most of them would be the unrevamped versions. so i doubt greenoaks would come in and say the foundry is not needed when he'd have just a bunch of bad-looking maps to play on.
so probably the foundry's biggest mistake was not making a fuss when lack's first deadline came and he gave us nothing. instead we got fooled with empty promises of things that never came.

(*)assuming all mapmakers would have the balls to participate in such a boycott.

exactly, your success lessons your need.

don't get me wrong, my favourite maps are the Realms maps and i run tournaments on Beta maps just to help get you lot some feedback but while you continue to churn out maps you undermine your argument that CC needs to add xml features.

[Gigi1]

I have never made a map before, so I am not a mapmaker. I never heard of lackattack before reading this forum. I never heard of thenobodies80 nor DiM nor Natty Dread before neither. Because I am a member who enjoys playing on this site I would like to express my gratitude to all of you. Thank you very much!

I am interested to hear about this strike. It sounds like its a dictatorship, but the dictator has gone silent. Its really all up to lackattack isn't it? He set up a system whereby he got free mapmakers, and then when he got enough he went silent. He's getting $25 per membership to run the site and he may have enough money that any more or less money doesn't excite him to move or change anymore.

It also sounds like if the mapmakers leave the site survives. But on the other hand, if lackattack leaves then the site dies, unless a successor dictator is appointed.

Even if the mapmakers get 100% support from a majority of the members, what does that accomplish without lackattack's desire to allow the mapmakers to make more maps.

This site is what it is. It is not the real world for most of us. It is an escape from the realities of everyday life. It is fun, mindless entertainment. We get to meet and play games with people from all over the world. And we get to fantasize.

In conclusion, thanks again to lackattack and all the mapmakers for giving me the site to escape reality for a while. I must get back to the real world now.

[natty dread]

This site is what it is. It is not the real world

If you imagine in your head a planet with 8 moons where 5-headed sentient antelopes have built a utopian society, that's not the real world. That's just imagination, a fantasy world.

This, however, is the real world. This website exists within the real world. The very fact that people can communicate with other, real people through this site is enough evidence that this site is real. Just because some thing is accessible through the internet does not make it some kind of immaterial abstraction that only exists in your head. Websites are, in fact, actual real things that exist in the real world.

Also, of course it "is what it is". Everything is what it is. That doesn't mean that we should just accept everything as they are and never make any effort to change them.

[Dukasaur]

What I don't understand is why this great bunch of volunteers does not feel supported by Lack. While it seems they have logic and reason behind their dissatisfaction, that actually does not matter. The very fact that they *FEEL* dissatisfied is all that should matter to Lack. That feeling needs to be addressed else you will get what you have here: volunteers not wanting to volunteer. Please, Lack. Care about what these guys feel. They are trying to help. Don't make them feel like they are running into a brick wall.

+1

[isaiah40]

Imagine this if you will. A couple of people from here decide to leave and take some mapmakers with them to start another Risk based game site, (no I'm not talking about Major Command), and those mapmakers decide to tell lack to remove their maps form CC. Just from 3 mapmakers, CC will be down by 50 maps. What if more mapmakers leave and have lack remove their maps, where will CC be then? it would be left with the maps it started out with, you know, the ones not a lot of people play on. Will it take this scenario to get lack's attention?

Just a few random thoughts of what COULD happen.

[DiM]

Imagine this if you will. A couple of people from here decide to leave and take some mapmakers with them to start another Risk based game site, (no I'm not talking about Major Command), and those mapmakers decide to tell lack to remove their maps form CC. Just from 3 mapmakers, CC will be down by 50 maps. What if more mapmakers leave and have lack remove their maps, where will CC be then? it would be left with the maps it started out with, you know, the ones not a lot of people play on. Will it take this scenario to get lack's attention?

Just a few random thoughts of what COULD happen.

+1

[Nola_Lifer]

I don't see how others can come on here and criticizes the people who make the maps and the people who help run the foundry. How ignorant can you be? Why do you come onto this site? To play on these beautifully made maps. I don't see any other reason why you'd be on this site other than to troll. It is a shame that these people aren't given credit where credit is due. Another point is that these said people are trying to make this site better. Better html means better and more creative maps. Why would you not want this and why would you criticize them for wanting these changes?

Good on you. Glad that we do have people who care enough about this site to rebuke. RIP Foundry!

[thehippo8]

This is an interesting debate from many different directions.

The Internet Chess Club went through a similar issue. Whebn the developers and those involved at the top (mods, programmers, assistants) got into logger-heads it was all about the commercialisation of the site. Thos in charge decided that enough was done and it was the best chess site on the net so it decided to close off certain people and up the fees. The result for those in charge was unexpected. FICS (free internet chess club) was born. People split off and to this day FICS is much larger than ICC. Sure, more grandmasters play on ICC than FICS but most people who play chess online are not grandmasters! Moreover, grandmasters get free entry to FICS and what grandmaster would want to play a 100, 1400, 1800 or even 2000 rated player? Indeed, what's the point in playing there other than to "be seen" or "try new ideas with their mates" or "play other grandmasters". This form of elitism may attract those international masters (the rank below grandmasters) who can usefully learn from mistakes or new idea - but anyone can do that by following grandmaster games. So ICC dwindles and one can only hope can see the error of its ways.

I am impressed by CC (Conquer Club) that it has meshed pay-things (membership and things for sale) with free-things (a limited taste of the website and involvement in extraneous activities by its members (freemium and premiun) such as chat, forums, mafia and most notably the foundry. Sure the heads here own this site and we all partake on the understanding that things may one day change no-one would expect things to change to the extent that the foundry would go. Go, are you kidding?

Frankly, the foundry the the backbone of this website. I believe that lack knows that and I can't help wondering whether all this is about Lack and others finding out whether we as a community really value it too. Well, we do!

And I can only hope and pray that we don't end up going down the track of loosing such amazing talent as Natty Dread or DiM or ... well too many to mention ... or worse people just leaving the site in droves and the inevitability of something else coming along and ruining this site for good! No, we all love this place and spend so much time and effort here. Don't let the foundry die - respect your followers, your people, your strength! And we in turn will respect you right back!

Perhaps now would be a goof time, Lack or other "senior", to pop in and provide some reassurance. I feel the inevitable grip of inevitability and fate's teeth otherwise!

[RjBeals]

Interesting. You all feel the same way me and some old timers did a few years back. I don't mind making maps for free. I still do at cartographersguild, simply because I enjoy it. But cartoguild is not a business, it's a forum for map enthusiasts. The fact that Lack is making money off the maps his users give him for free, while he is completely uninvolved, or unresponsive - it's going to eventually start to be frustrating.

Funny I was just chatting with Oaktown and WidowMakers about the thrill it used to be several years ago when everytime we logged into the forum, there was some kind of action to get involved with. Not so much anymore. Good luck on your revolt. I wonder what will happen If everyone stops making maps in protest.

[Kabanellas]

What I don't understand is why this great bunch of volunteers does not feel supported by Lack. While it seems they have logic and reason behind their dissatisfaction, that actually does not matter. The very fact that they *FEEL* dissatisfied is all that should matter to Lack. That feeling needs to be addressed else you will get what you have here: volunteers not wanting to volunteer. Please, Lack. Care about what these guys feel. They are trying to help. Don't make them feel like they are running into a brick wall.

Precisely!

[oaktown]

Let me tell you all a little story. A few years ago, a bunch of guys with names like Widowmakers and Coleman and RjBeals and DiM and cairnswk and qwert and Keyogi and mibi and gimil and edbeard and oaktown began working on our first maps. Some of these maps weren't very good (Chinese Checkers). But we learned from each other, got better, and took on the running of the foundry. But over time most of us grew frustrated with the lack of attention from above, and started rumbling for development support and higher standards. Many left, and those that stuck it out aren't nearly as active as they once were.

So in answer to Rj's question: if everybody stopped making maps there would just be a new crop of mapmakers with weaker skills and lower standards that would appear in a few months, completely oblivious to the fact that the veteran mapmakers left. They'd gradually improve their skills and become Foundry mods. It's the natural Foundry cycle.

CC's Foundry is largely independent of the management of the site. This is a both a strength and a weakness. You guys run the show and control the output, but you also suffer from a lack of support. It remains a really good model for the user who wants to work on their graphic skills in a supportive environment and see their work published, and for most users it works. But after a time you want it to be more.

[natty dread]

CC's Foundry is largely independent of the management of the site. This is a both a strength and a weakness. You guys run the show and control the output, but you also suffer from a lack of support. It remains a really good model for the user who wants to work on their graphic skills in a supportive environment and see their work published, and for most users it works. But after a time you want it to be more.

Yep, pretty much. However:

So in answer to Rj's question: if everybody stopped making maps there would just be a new crop of mapmakers with weaker skills and lower standards that would appear in a few months, completely oblivious to the fact that the veteran mapmakers left. They'd gradually improve their skills and become Foundry mods. It's the natural Foundry cycle.

I can see what you're referencing here... this worked once before, because back then, not all of the old mapmakers left, some who had at least learned somewhat how mapmaking worked stayed to instruct the new mapmakers.

But what if all of the current mapmakers & foundry staff left at once, so there would be no one to instruct the new mapmakers? Would the new crew be able to construct a new foundry, completely from scratch? I'm not sure... maybe with time they could. There's plenty of tutorials on graphics design, and they could benefit from the mapmaking tutorials already on this site, as well. But as to how to run the day-to-day business of the foundry, how to keep the gears rolling and how to keep everything working smoothly... I don't know. Depends on the people I guess.


On the other hand, we who are currently in the foundry don't have the same options as the "old guard" - we can't just up and start another CC-like website, as to my knowledge there isn't anyone among the current mapmakers with the know-how or resources to do that. So if the foundry dies, the future for the current CC mapmakers looks grim, from a mapmaking perspective - there aren't any good alternatives where the current mapmakers could migrate. I expect most would just find some other purpose, other kinds of projects to work their skills on. There are plenty of stuff out there that welcome contributions from even moderately skilled graphic artists, there just isn't anything quite similar to CC mapmaking.

[Oneyed]

what is interesting me, if anybody has any reaction from lackattack on this protest. because in topic is nothing...

Oneyed

[oaktown]

But what if all of the current mapmakers & foundry staff left at once, so there would be no one to instruct the new mapmakers? Would the new crew be able to construct a new foundry, completely from scratch? I'm not sure... maybe with time they could.

Nature abhors a vacuum. It wouldn't be the foundry as you know it today, but it would find a way to function. As I said before, this is a very good model for some users. It's just not for everybody.

[isaiah40]

On the other hand, we who are currently in the foundry don't have the same options as the "old guard" - we can't just up and start another CC-like website, as to my knowledge there isn't anyone among the current mapmakers with the know-how or resources to do that.

Well I for one can design a basic web site, but as far as coding everything to make the site work efficiently, you would need someone who does coding for a living to get it done. A dedicated server nowadays aren't that expensive, and you can always go larger as the site grows.

[Ace Rimmer]

Just a quick note that I fully support Joe (aka thenobodies80) and the rest of the boys in blue. I love the responses from the admins in this thread, it's very telling.

[AndyDufresne]

I definitely hear where everyone is coming from, I think I felt some of the same frustrations when I was Foundry Foreman back in the day as well. The Foundry has definitely always been a special place to me, since it always seems filled with so much potential---and if there is lack of enthusiasm, I think it really does effect the website as a whole.

Lack and King Achilles started discussing some items while I was out of the office last week, and I caught up with them this past Monday. We'll have a longer and more in-depth conversation mid-week. We're working on some actual tangible items, instead of just written promises, and I am sure we'll be in touch with the Cartos (and the rest of the Foundry here) as well.

I think a lot of good will come out of this, and hopefully there will be some new added interest in the Foundry's map and development as well.


--Andy

[koontz1973]

Andy, for a response from an admin, that was short and sweet.
Please remember, none of us took this action lightly and all we want is to make better maps for everyone.

[degaston]

Add my vote of support to the foundry volunteers. I was interested in map-making, but the lack of support from the top made it not seem worth the effort - or worth renewing my premium membership.

[crazymilkshake5]

I stand on the map makers side 100%.

[thehippo8]

I definitely hear where everyone is coming from, I think I felt some of the same frustrations when I was Foundry Foreman back in the day as well. The Foundry has definitely always been a special place to me, since it always seems filled with so much potential---and if there is lack of enthusiasm, I think it really does effect the website as a whole.

Lack and King Achilles started discussing some items while I was out of the office last week, and I caught up with them this past Monday. We'll have a longer and more in-depth conversation mid-week. We're working on some actual tangible items, instead of just written promises, and I am sure we'll be in touch with the Cartos (and the rest of the Foundry here) as well.

I think a lot of good will come out of this, and hopefully there will be some new added interest in the Foundry's map and development as well.


--Andy

Thanks Andy, this is encouraging! (Have changed my avatar accordingly!) Looking forward to hearing from you later in the week.

[isaiah40]

I definitely hear where everyone is coming from, I think I felt some of the same frustrations when I was Foundry Foreman back in the day as well. The Foundry has definitely always been a special place to me, since it always seems filled with so much potential---and if there is lack of enthusiasm, I think it really does effect the website as a whole.

Lack and King Achilles started discussing some items while I was out of the office last week, and I caught up with them this past Monday. We'll have a longer and more in-depth conversation mid-week. We're working on some actual tangible items, instead of just written promises, and I am sure we'll be in touch with the Cartos (and the rest of the Foundry here) as well.

I think a lot of good will come out of this, and hopefully there will be some new added interest in the Foundry's map and development as well.


--Andy

Thanks Andy, this is encouraging! (Have changed my avatar accordingly!) Looking forward to hearing from you later in the week.

I am sorry hippo, but I can't read your avy. Can you please change it to the tombstone one?