Chariot of Fire[closed]

[Foxglove]

mod edit: flame

haha, that doesn't quite look like "I regret colluding with CoF to take my turns when I was online, but I'm sorry you called me out on it" but maybe that's what you meant to type.

[BGtheBrain]

This has been pretty calm regarding flaming and baiting.

If it gets out of hand it will be locked, but those getting out of hand will be punished.

[sonicsteve]

mod edit: flame

haha, that doesn't quite look like "I regret colluding with CoF to take my turns when I was online, but I'm sorry you called me out on it" but maybe that's what you meant to type.

That wasn't a flame, I merely stated some accurate facts about chuck.

I don't care about getting called out, I'm lucky if I get in here for ten minutes in 24 hours nowadays, hence I'm winding down my game count to nil, and sometimes need covering until all games are finished and I leave the site.

[catnipdreams]

There is quite a lot of Chuck's biased opinion stated as if it were factual truth in the OP. I've picked out a few of Chuck's comments that I felt I could personally address, and added my comments. A lot has been said already, and I apologize if these points have already been discussed.

From the OP:

Chuck says:

On top of that, you can see sonicsteve complimenting Chariot of Fire for covering turns for so many people and obviously Chariot of Fire takes pride in this level of cheating with his "tks" followed by a smiley face.

CoF has been covering for several clan members who were/are on vacation. This is a huge task, and CoF has commented in the clan forum about how burdensome this is.

Chuck says:

From conversations I have had with him, I can confirm that he is very self riotous and does think very highly of himself.

My interactions with CoF have ranged from cordial to friendly, as I played more team games with him, and got to know him better. CoF is detail oriented, and very experienced with strategy. I do not find him to be self-rightous. CoF is one of the most skilled players on this site; is he supposed to think of himself as a newbie? CoF has a healthy, appropriate, well developed sense of self esteem, imo.

Chuck says:

Here Chariot of Fire says he jumped on my account to take my turn because I was close to missing in ANOTHER game. I still had nearly 7 hours to go in this game and he knew this was morning time for me. I would be getting up shortly and would take my turns. He just can't help himself but to take others turns in the games he is in. That is the only way to ensure they are taken the way he wants.

I believe that CoF took this turn because Chuck had become highly unreliable at this point in time. It is not true that CoF "can't help himself but to take others turns", to "ensure they are taken the way he wants". My experience with CoF as a teammate have been that he communicates his view of strategy for each teammate's turn, as everyone on a team strives to do for each teammate's turn. Then from everyone's ideas, a clear plan can be developed. For those of you who are reading this, who do not play team games, this level of communication is not cheating. It is what team games are all about; coordinating the moves of individual team members to create a team effort.

Chuck says:

Here you see Chariot of Fire online taking Pedronicus's turn. You then see me log (after another weekend away) and say that I will be home in time to take my turn. Before I get back, Chariot of Fire says he'd rather take it himself (of course he would) and then logs in to my account to take the turn after I clearly told him I would be back in time to take it.

Chuck did not "clearly" tell CoF that he would be back in time to take his own turn; Chuck said:

2012-05-12 23:53:50 - Chuuuuck [team]: chuck here, i can probably get in the car to head home 2 hours before this expires... should b e able to get it then

"probably" and "should" combined with "2 hours before this expires", from an unreliable player....

Chuck says:

Again, telling me he will take the turn for me because it is "easier." I was around and capable of taking this turn but he took it before I would of woken up and logged in for the morning (around 07:00).

However, due to Chuck's unreliability and history of missed turns, it is understandable that there would be concern about this turn being missed as well.

Chuck says:

It is important to note that the games shown here are only games in which I personally participated in over the past several months. There were many posts in the clan forum by Chariot of Fire about how many different people he was covering for and I think it is very safe to assume there are many more games in which I don't know about where he was illegally covering for others.

I will say again, that there were several clan members away on vacation, that CoF was sitting for.

Chuck says:

This is a quote from Chariot of Fire when he decided he was going to leave the site (obviously, he never left the site). He acknowledges how much control he has over the clan and the games and says that if he isn't around then it will allow for me "freedom and collaboration and thought" from the others in the clan.

The quote that Chuck references was taken out of context. CoF is a clan leader, does a lot of administration, and contributes extensively to the clan forums. If CoF left, these administration tasks would have to be done by other clan members, who may or may not do the tasks differently. I was asked to take on one of these administrative tasks, but had to decline due to time constraints. I have always felt free to take on as much, or as little, of these tasks as I wished to, and I believe that any clan member could volunteer to take on any given task that he or she wished to do.

I would also like to point out that Chuck has been ludicrously disrespectful to the entire clan. CoF is a strong, capable leader, who attracts strong, capable players to team with him. Some extremely well respected, top players have joined TOFU recently because of the quality of play that exists on TOFU teams. We all contribute, we are all skilled. It is a joy for me to play with top quality teammates; I am no one's pawn. I put at least an hour a day into strategy notes in team chat in my games, frequently it's more like 2 or 3 hours. Does that sound like someone's puppet to you? Please do not let the bitterness of an ex clan member who was booted for cause sway your opinion of an individual, or of an entire clan.

[drunkmonkey]

No one except your clanmates care about Chuuuuck's motives. I'm reading the green text, not the blue. There's no bias in the copied game chat.

[Chuuuuck]

Cat, you must of missed several of my posts. No where have I said that you all have anything less than respected and very good players across the board other than Chariot of Fire. I still truly believe, with recent additions, you all have the strongest roster on this site (even without Chariot of Fire).

But regardless of motives and me being "bitter." That does not change any of the evidence presented, the fact that Chariot of Fire cheated, for the second time, after knowing it was wrong.

It still bothers me that all of you that are still in TOFU see absolutely no problem with what he did.

[Pedronicus]

There were times that I had free time with nothing to do, in those times I chose to log in and play a speed game because I would have an hour or two to kill. .

If you had of spent that hour or two leaving instructions and leading the game as we had asked you, none of this shit would of happened. You'd still be in the clan and Si wouldn't of been taking turns for me.

[Foxglove]

There were times that I had free time with nothing to do, in those times I chose to log in and play a speed game because I would have an hour or two to kill. .

If you had of spent that hour or two leaving instructions and leading the game as we had asked you, none of this shit would of happened. You'd still be in the clan and Si wouldn't of been taking turns for me.

haha, wait - chuuuuck's absence required CoF to take your turns?

[merch313]

There were times that I had free time with nothing to do, in those times I chose to log in and play a speed game because I would have an hour or two to kill. .

If you had of spent that hour or two leaving instructions and leading the game as we had asked you, none of this shit would of happened. You'd still be in the clan and Si wouldn't of been taking turns for me.

haha, wait - chuuuuck's absence required CoF to take your turns?

[The Voice]

I have seen more hasty generalizations in this thread than I think I ever have. Because we have this one specific instance involving a few clan players, all of a sudden all top clans are guilty of sitting abuse? I can mention a number of games in the CL alone where clanmates and I have missed a turn. It happens. Life goes on. I beg people to stop saying "TOFU did this," "KoRT did that," "Top clans do this," etc., and focus on the facts at hand.

On to the facts: Can someone from those mentioned in the OP address the flag business?

[Rodion]

Related to this point is CoF taking turns because someone was low on time in another turn, which is profoundly scandalous. I think the whole clan is dishonorable to be honest and I'd like to see a sweeping punishment because this cheating was pandemic and not limited to one or even a few games, but rather ingrained into the TOFU culture.

Easy, tiger!

You cannot punish players without evidence.

From Chuuuuck's sample, only CoF/Chuuuuck/Pedronicus/sonicsteve/Iron Maid/raketen are caught in the abuse. Raketen only once and I can't quite tell whether he joined games against his will or not (as in, CoF logging in his account to press the "join" button). Other than Raketen, who merits extra investigation, all others in this paragraph are clear busts.

Nikola and Ace should not be blamed in my opinion (at least from the shown data) as they intended to play their turns before an overzealous CoF impeded them.

The Nippersean situation is not as clear. The first part shows intent to abuse, but no abuse. The second part is inconclusive.

Again, this is only the sample Chuuuuck had access to, which may only be the tip of the iceberg. It would be nice if the MH's could analyse the logs on the other recent TOFU/TLO games in order to know exactly which members are involved in the scandal and which are clean, as I'm sure many will come up clean and therefore should not be involved in this mess.

[merch313]

On to the facts: Can someone from those mentioned in the OP address the flag business?

Think thats what everyone is waiting on. I get defending a clan mate and a friend, but the flag thing and smug/humor behind so no one seems to want to bring up

[trapyoung]

On top of that, you can see sonicsteve complimenting Chariot of Fire for covering turns for so many people and obviously Chariot of Fire takes pride in this level of cheating with his "tks" followed by a smiley face.

That's my favorite line. I may use that in court one day.

[eddie2]

lol i just remembered something. chuuuuck i think that in all rights you should actually be punished more than cof for this case let me explain why...

in the op you mention cof abusing another members account..

2012-06-19 12:23:39 - hatchman [team]: Perhaps I'll change my PW and give it to those I trust most.

you also state you are against all of this stuff that happened (hence the c and a report) so why when you quiet obviously don't agree with what someone was doing do you give that player acsess to your account.. previously in a case about buddysystem (who was busted for pointdumping) which from what i remember they could not say 100 percent but the main thing was this

Buddysystem has been given an indefinite website vacation for point dumping and carelessly leaving his account information to some of his games.

when i talked with king the carelessly leaving was added to make it a indefinate ban. so was classed as major abuse.(since you are the only person reporting this then you obviously have 2 majors against yourself.)
1)babysitter abuse (playing speed games while allowing a sitter to play for you.)which by this case you deam as abuse.
2)leaving your account unsecure (meaning giving your password to someone you believe abuses others accounts and yours even pulling him more than once for taking your turn.) but still not changing your password ?????

**** please note the 2nd breach wound not be viable if you did not feel the first one was abuse.

flag changing discussions.

omggggg in some of the chats they say we got to be careful in games via josko. does anyone else not understand josko and cof have a checkered history or argueing ???????

i am not even in the games and can think of a valid reason.
in one of the ops evidence it states cof asking the members not to post in forums during his turn taking... coulod you then surmise that cof was actually legally babysitting for some of these players who were playing on a mobile while on holiday/vacation ????? as i know several players who ask others to sit because they do not have acsess to a proper computer to make proper shots ????
*i am not saying this is a valid reason but through some of the op's original evidense it could be seen as a reason.

[Dako]

This is a sad thread. It reminded me a lot the movie Gone Baby Gone - watch it and you will know what I am talking about here.

Most sad thing is not that Chuck accused CoF of this cheating, but what has been brought up in the people who have responded in this thread. So much spite, so much hatred, so much violence and gloating. I am worried about people who have such strong negative emotions in them - how can they live with them? Are they used to live with them on a daily basis already? Funny penis comments and little pranks are ok, but some of the posts were full of evil which is sad indeed.

[Chuuuuck]

lol i just remembered something. chuuuuck i think that in all rights you should actually be punished more than cof for this case let me explain why...

Anecdotally, if you want a tl;dr surefire way of knowing whether someone deserves a bust in C&A without having to read walls of text (which I have read, by the way), you just have to look at eddie2's opinion and flip it 180º.

Never fails.

[codeblue1018]

This is a sad thread. It reminded me a lot the movie Gone Baby Gone - watch it and you will know what I am talking about here.

Most sad thing is not that Chuck accused CoF of this cheating, but what has been brought up in the people who have responded in this thread. So much spite, so much hatred, so much violence and gloating. I am worried about people who have such strong negative emotions in them - how can they live with them? Are they used to live with them on a daily basis already? Funny penis comments and little pranks are ok, but some of the posts were full of evil which is sad indeed.

Agreed Dako. There is really no reason for this to still be an active topic. People have no more to add. Let the mods deal with this and if discipline should be handed out, so be it. It has turned into an attack onslaught on cof rather than speaking to the facts as they exist, no?

[Denise]

What I have been doing in this thread is:
1. calling CoF a hypocrite (which I believe is justified, considering that there are quotable posts where he condemns the actions that the game chats chuuuuck posted prove he has taken)
2. asking CoF to defend the turn-taking collusion when the player he sits for is clearly online
3 gloating

I think number 3 proves that I'm not nice and almighty. I apologize for it though, and after my response to Denise decided to refrain from that in future posts.

I appreciate you, Foxy. I do understand the long time resentment that you and others in your clan must feel, so your efforts to curtail that in this thread mean a lot. Even though I've only been in TOFU a short time, I regret the history of our two clans. I know some players thrive on this drama, but for me it detracts a lot from the fun of the game.

I thought about adding a lot more words to this, but I don't see the point, really. I feel much of the "evidence" is circumstantial and emotion based, which is why I feel motive matters. However, the hunters will do their work and most of what any of us say won't matter to the outcome.

The only game where I have first hand knowledge of what happened was Game 11177036. I was in this one. This is a TLO tourny game. I'll not speak for the rest of the team, but my interpretation of what happened in this game is that these 2 turns which were taken for Pedro were legitimate. They were taken on Thursday evenings, Pedro's time. There is an understanding that Pedro will be gone from the site every Thursday into Friday for sometimes up to a 24 hour period. That doesn't always happen, but the sitting is prearranged for that possibility. That CoF took a turn in this game because he was on Pedro's account to take a turn in another, closer, game, isn't sitting abuse, since the sitting arrangement was prearranged. As I've said, this is my interpretation of the sitting that went on in this game. I'm not sure if the facts are accurate, but I wanted to get in what I thought happened here, before the thread gets locked.

As I see it, the only infraction in this game was CoF's failure to post publicly about the sitting, and that was only a tourney infraction. It isn't specifically against the rules not to do this, from my understanding. Others have also mentioned this. I myself only post publicly about 1/2 the time while sitting for others, not to intentionally mislead anyone, but because I forget to.

[Dibbun]

What I have been doing in this thread is:
1. calling CoF a hypocrite (which I believe is justified, considering that there are quotable posts where he condemns the actions that the game chats chuuuuck posted prove he has taken)
2. asking CoF to defend the turn-taking collusion when the player he sits for is clearly online
3 gloating

I think number 3 proves that I'm not nice and almighty. I apologize for it though, and after my response to Denise decided to refrain from that in future posts.

I appreciate you, Foxy. I do understand the long time resentment that you and others in your clan must feel, so your efforts to curtail that in this thread mean a lot. Even though I've only been in TOFU a short time, I regret the history of our two clans. I know some players thrive on this drama, but for me it detracts a lot from the fun of the game.

I thought about adding a lot more words to this, but I don't see the point, really. I feel much of the "evidence" is circumstantial and emotion based, which is why I feel motive matters. However, the hunters will do their work and most of what any of us say won't matter to the outcome.

The only game where I have first hand knowledge of what happened was Game 11177036. I was in this one. This is a TLO tourny game. I'll not speak for the rest of the team, but my interpretation of what happened in this game is that these 2 turns which were taken for Pedro were legitimate. They were taken on Thursday evenings, Pedro's time. There is an understanding that Pedro will be gone from the site every Thursday into Friday for sometimes up to a 24 hour period. That doesn't always happen, but the sitting is prearranged for that possibility. That CoF took a turn in this game because he was on Pedro's account to take a turn in another, closer, game, isn't sitting abuse, since the sitting arrangement was prearranged. As I've said, this is my interpretation of the sitting that went on in this game. I'm not sure if the facts are accurate, but I wanted to get in what I thought happened here, before the thread gets locked.

As I see it, the only infraction in this game was CoF's failure to post publicly about the sitting, and that was only a tourney infraction. It isn't specifically against the rules not to do this, from my understanding. Others have also mentioned this. I myself only post publicly about 1/2 the time while sitting for others, not to intentionally mislead anyone, but because I forget to.

I am not in any clan and have no prior beef against your clan. I just don't like cheaters. Don't try playing like you're the victim of some kind of witchhunt. You're a cheater.

CoF took a turn that Pedronicus could have taken himself, that he was online for at the least a couple hours before the turn would have expired. CoF didn't even have explicit permission to take that turn, saying Pedronicus would PROBABLY be grateful. Yes, probably be grateful that a superior player took his turn.

Taking turns of someone who has the means to take their own turns IS cheating. If you knew about it and you're benefiting, like you are in that game by being on the winning team, YOU cheated and YOU deserve a ban and point reset.

Whether they lock this thread or not or whether KORT and TOFU flame each other into oblivion will not change the fact that dishonorable behavior occurred here and that CoF, you Denise, or the rest of TOFU are not even close to being able to call yourselves victims but rather exploiters.

[codeblue1018]

Dibbun,

You sound like a broken record; you have said the same thing upteen times, we get it! Why this thread isn't locked by now is beyond me. Btw dibbun, how can a player receive a ban AND a point reset as you so elequently state?

[Knight2254]

Wow... can we lock this thread already? The name calling on all sides is getting ridiculous.

[Dibbun]

Dibbun,

You sound like a broken record; you have said the same thing upteen times, we get it! Why this thread isn't locked by now is beyond me. Btw dibbun, how can a player receive a ban AND a point reset as you so elequently state?

The eloquence (notice the correct spelling) is in the idea that not all bans are permanent. The ban would be for gross abuse of the game, systematic cheating over a long period of time, and the reset due to people benefiting quite heavily in point gains from the cheating.

[codeblue1018]

Dibbun,

You sound like a broken record; you have said the same thing upteen times, we get it! Why this thread isn't locked by now is beyond me. Btw dibbun, how can a player receive a ban AND a point reset as you so elequently state?

The eloquence (notice the correct spelling) is in the idea that not all bans are permanent. The ban would be for gross abuse of the game, systematic cheating over a long period of time, and the reset due to people benefiting quite heavily in point gains from the cheating.

I'm glad your goal is to have a FAIR, level playing field here as most of us are. Feel free to re-read the GLG thread again on the posts you made. Weird how things work when your friends with one and an enemy of the other. Keep up the good work mate!

[Dibbun]

Dibbun,

You sound like a broken record; you have said the same thing upteen times, we get it! Why this thread isn't locked by now is beyond me. Btw dibbun, how can a player receive a ban AND a point reset as you so elequently state?

The eloquence (notice the correct spelling) is in the idea that not all bans are permanent. The ban would be for gross abuse of the game, systematic cheating over a long period of time, and the reset due to people benefiting quite heavily in point gains from the cheating.

I'm glad your goal is to have a FAIR, level playing field here as most of us are. Feel free to re-read the GLG thread again on the posts you made. Weird how things work when your friends with one and an enemy of the other. Keep up the good work mate!

The difference is exploitation of account sitting by nefarious means, including deceptive tricks such as flag changing; and the training of unskilled players on complex maps and settings, with the goal of the advancing of a social system beyond a feudalistic dominance over ignorant serfs which is usually looked down upon by the "elite."

[Evil Semp]

This is a sad thread. It reminded me a lot the movie Gone Baby Gone - watch it and you will know what I am talking about here.

Most sad thing is not that Chuck accused CoF of this cheating, but what has been brought up in the people who have responded in this thread. So much spite, so much hatred, so much violence and gloating. I am worried about people who have such strong negative emotions in them - how can they live with them? Are they used to live with them on a daily basis already? Funny penis comments and little pranks are ok, but some of the posts were full of evil which is sad indeed.

Agreed Dako. There is really no reason for this to still be an active topic. People have no more to add. Let the mods deal with this and if discipline should be handed out, so be it. It has turned into an attack onslaught on cof rather than speaking to the facts as they exist, no?

With this I agree. I get home tonight and find 6 more pages with out adding anything of substance. I am going to lock this. If you have anything on this just send me a PM. I only want PM's that matter to this case not on who or who should not get punished.