USA 2.1 [10 Mar 2013] Beta Baby!!

[ManBungalow]

Extremely nice.

Generally speaking, I see very few flaws in this map. Granted, I haven't analysed each individual bonus, but they mostly seem fair enough.

The part of the legend which says "All Hawaiian cities can attack each other". At least 95% of people on this site know what the map of Hawaii looks like, or could work it out from the map. Some of the others will go look it up. However, it doesn't show the word 'Hawaii' anywhere else on the map. For one of those 12 year-old international players we have on this site, that part may not make sense. Eh, it's not a big problem, but just something to consider looking at.

Similarly, I guess you could highlight an interstate route in the part of the legend which says "+1 for every 5 interstate cities".
I assume this means any 5 cities on one interstate line, and that they don't have to adjoining. This is, I'm sure, much more efficient in terms of the XML.

I'm still not quite sure how you want the starting neutrals to be placed, but all in due course..

Good luck with the progress of this map.

[isaiah40]

You know, I kind of like the white text for region names. Black text seems to blend in with all of the graphics and kind of adds to a crazy-eye effect, while white kind of pops out in a good way. Unfortunately you'd probably have to adjust the colors of your bonus zones to make white text work, but I am fond of it.

Nice to see this map back in production.


--Andy

I could place a dark outer glow around the white text, that way it will be easier to see on the lighter colors.

i note that there are 42 state capitals of states that have 4 or more cities. rather than having the capitals start neutral and troops everywhere else, have u considered starting everyone from these 42 state capitals only, with the rest of the map (except capitals) as single neutrals? this has the advantage of not letting player 1 starting with a huge attacking force without setting an artificial cap which slows down the game in the later stages, though it does wreck the isaiah trademark capital bonus.

ian.

Actually, it was a passing thought, though the way you put it makes total sense. There are 3 capitals that have an airport attached to them, I think those should start as 3 neutral. Instead of everything else starting with 1 neutral, how about if we have them start with 2? What should we have the initial placement be 2 or 3? What about capitals having an autodeploy of 1 or 2?

If you went down this route, and it would be a nice route even though it spoils the initial idea of the map pack copy, you could give...
each capital a +1 auto
airport capitals 3 neutral (as you said)
D.C. a 5 neutral but a +3 auto
Elsewhere, 2 neutrals. Easier to kill than one.

have u decided whether the starting regions will be the 42 (or 39) state capitals mentioned above, with single or double neutrals everywhere else? if we start on the capitals, then the capital bonus of +1 for every 2 capitals needs to be modified. on the other hand, if we start everywhere except on the capitals, then the new interstate bonus of +1 for every 5 cities has to be changed.

moorehead MN ought to be moorhead. is it possible to move it along I-94 much closer to st paul (but not so close that the road disappears), then rename it as minneapolis, without changing the connections? the position won't be exactly right, but minneapolis is on I-94 and the best-known place in the state.

have u considered changing moorehead to minneapolis, or is it there for a special reason (for example, someone's request)?

ian.

I was thinking of having all the capitals start with 5 neutral, and have starting groups as in Salem's Switch - probably a grouping of 5 territories? With the interstate cities, after talking with nolefan, it would probably be a good idea to start a few of those territories as neutral as well to prevent any drop. Maybe start them with 5 neutral as well?? Or would 3 be better? Maybe place neutrals on every 3rd city along an interstate. For instance Phoenix to Baton Rouge has 6 cities that can possibly be dropped. If I can make El Paso and Houston start as neutral. Between Salt Lake City and San Diego is another example. I can make Beaver and Colton neutrals. If I do this then would I have to change the Interstate bonus?

I forgot to change Moorhead to Minneapolis, I'll get it done next update.

[nolefan5311]

What do you think about making the interstate bonus +1 for every 5 consecutive cities?

[AndyDufresne]

The part of the legend which says "All Hawaiian cities can attack each other". At least 95% of people on this site know what the map of Hawaii looks like, or could work it out from the map. Some of the others will go look it up. However, it doesn't show the word 'Hawaii' anywhere else on the map. For one of those 12 year-old international players we have on this site, that part may not make sense. Eh, it's not a big problem, but just something to consider looking at.

Why not just add the outline of the Hawaiian Islands behind the text? Since you have some other images in the legend, it may not look out of place.


--Andy

[isaiah40]

What do you think about making the interstate bonus +1 for every 5 consecutive cities?

It could be done, at the same time I don't think I want to make it too hard to get the bonus. I'll see what ian has to say.

The part of the legend which says "All Hawaiian cities can attack each other". At least 95% of people on this site know what the map of Hawaii looks like, or could work it out from the map. Some of the others will go look it up. However, it doesn't show the word 'Hawaii' anywhere else on the map. For one of those 12 year-old international players we have on this site, that part may not make sense. Eh, it's not a big problem, but just something to consider looking at.

Why not just add the outline of the Hawaiian Islands behind the text? Since you have some other images in the legend, it may not look out of place.


--Andy

That can be done easy enough.

[AndyDufresne]

What do you think about making the interstate bonus +1 for every 5 consecutive cities?

It could be done, at the same time I don't think I want to make it too hard to get the bonus. I'll see what ian has to say.

I kind of like the idea. I am not sure it would be too hard, but with the plethora of bonuses and combinations on this map, I kind of like adding the consecutive to the mix, since Capitals are just 'every'. But I'll leave the real discussion to those who know best.


--Andy

[isaiah40]

A couple of changes:
1. Hawaii outline added to legend
2. Capital star added to legend
3. D.C. Capitol Building added to legend
4. New England on the mini-map now matches the main map

Forgot about changing Moorhead to Minneapolis.

Changed the text color in Alabama to white with a dark outerglow. Peronally, I prefer the black text with the light outer glow.

Click image to enlarge.

[iancanton]

What do you think about making the interstate bonus +1 for every 5 consecutive cities?

It could be done, at the same time I don't think I want to make it too hard to get the bonus. I'll see what ian has to say.

good move. coding the bonus as 5 consecutive reduces or even eliminates the chances of dropping an interstate bonus without having so many neutral starts. increasing the bonuses to +2 or even +3 for every 5 consecutive is more realistic if u want the interstates to play a part in deliberate strategy rather than someone trying for the fifth city just because he already has four from other attacks. n3 is probably enough for any city that starts neutral, otherwise we have players tiptoeing round the neutrals wherever possible.

The route from Great Falls to Tok is actually heavily traveled. Though in reality there are about 4 different roads you travel on. You would actually drive through Calgary, Edmonton then on up to Dawson Creek which is the beginning of the Alaska Highway. That being said I could put a killer neutral and have it as Calgary for example.

a killer neutral is fine. it just shouldn't be as easy as, for example, san francisco to san jose.

how about a killer neutral of 1 to represent the canadian border?

ian.

[isaiah40]

how about a killer neutral of 1 to represent the canadian border?

ian.

Argh!!! I forgot that one as well! It is now done!

Changes made:

1. Moved Alaska down to the bottom left by Hawaii
2. Moved the title to the bottom
3. Spread out the mini-map across the top so it will be easier to see what each bonus is
4. Cropped the height down from 800 pixels to 710 pixels
5. Changed the Interstate city bonus from "+1 for every 5 interstate cities" to "+3 for 5 consecutive interstate cities"
6. Added in Calgary as a killer neutral between Great Falls and Tok
7. Changed Moorehead to Minneapolis and moved it to the right a tad bit

Click image to enlarge.

Still needing:
1. Should I go with the white text with dark outer glow like what is on Alabama, or the black text?

[koontz1973]

1. Moved Alaska down to the bottom left by Hawaii

This is so wrong, words fail me.

2. Moved the title to the bottom

but OK.

3. Spread out the mini-map across the top so it will be easier to see what each bonus is

Clearer so it is a good move but it seems to of gone in the wrong direction. By moving the title to the bottom, you already had room to spread the mini map out some, so why not put Alaska back where it should be. This would be clearer for game play.

4. Cropped the height down from 800 pixels to 710 pixels

How can this map be made more condensed and confusing? You seem of found it. I know that size is being an issue right now, but this map should not be one to be cropped, squeezed, squashed, crushed, flattened or any other word that comes to mind. I understand the height thing, but it feels as if you went too far this time. By putting Alaska back at the top, you grow some, and have the room for the mini map. You will not need the amount lost but somewhere in between should be good.

5. Changed the Interstate city bonus from "+1 for every 5 interstate cities" to "+3 for 5 consecutive interstate cities"

Good.

6. Added in Calgary as a killer neutral between Great Falls and Tok

Good move, but with Alaska down at the bottom, your arrows go no where.

1. Should I go with the white text with dark outer glow like what is on Alabama, or the black text?

Black on white IMO.

[isaiah40]

Done as koontz suggested. Had to expand the map up to 750 pixels in height.

Click image to enlarge.

[koontz1973]

Much better. Sorry for being negative in the last post.

[isaiah40]

Much better. Sorry for being negative in the last post.

Not a problem. You didn't see any punches being thrown your way right?

[nolefan5311]

I much prefer the black text.

Is there supposed to be a connection between Manchester and Boston? If not, the New Hampshire bonus should probably be reduced to a +1.

The border lines between states in the NE is a little hard to tell. Is there something you could do to fix that? Or something you could do is because there are already so many lines on the map, maybe getting rid of the border lines completely and just having a gap there similar to how the regions are split up.

Also, you should probably indicate somewhere in the legend that Calgary is a killer neutral. I can see someone parking a stack there not realizing that.

[isaiah40]

I much prefer the black text.

Yes, I prefer the black text better.

Is there supposed to be a connection between Manchester and Boston? If not, the New Hampshire bonus should probably be reduced to a +1.

Good catch! Yes there is. I'm thinking that maybe NH should be +1 anyways.

The border lines between states in the NE is a little hard to tell. Is there something you could do to fix that? Or something you could do is because there are already so many lines on the map, maybe getting rid of the border lines completely and just having a gap there similar to how the regions are split up.

I will be redoing all the borders and such as time goes on. As for the gap, I did have it that way way back when but it was making the map look way too cluttered.

Also, you should probably indicate somewhere in the legend that Calgary is a killer neutral. I can see someone parking a stack there not realizing that.

Done!

[iancanton]

juneau to anchorage is presumably by boat, the same as juneau to seattle. the only regular juneau ferry actually sails to bellingham, not to seattle, although there are pleasure cruises from seattle to alaska.

http://www.ferrytravel.com/juneau.htm

it's logical for u to use the same symbol for both connections: remove the dotted lines and put a boat beside anchorage, then amend the legend wording to connects juneau with anchorage and bellingham?

if u want seattle to play a bigger role as the gateway to alaska, then perhaps remove the above boat connections completely and add a blue plane beside both seattle and anchorage (to represent by far the busiest air link between the continental usa and alaska), with the wording connects anchorage with seattle.

rayan10154 noticed something on wm's usa: new england map that has carried over to here.

There are some mistakes on the New England map. Plattsburgh is closer to Burlington than Montpelier so those should be connected and Montpelier is closer to Berlin. I-90 is supposed to go through Worcester. And also New York City should connect to Scranton.

vermont is the wrong shape. the long western edge is supposed to follow a north-south line instead of being diagonal as at present. the road from plattsburgh to montpelier (note the spelling of both cities) is not direct, but goes through burlington. burlington is east of plattsburgh and northwest (not northeast) of montpelier.

http://www.discovernewengland.org/travel-planning/new-england-maps/

the above change also lets us reduce both vermont and new hampshire to +1.

Is there supposed to be a connection between Manchester and Boston? If not, the New Hampshire bonus should probably be reduced to a +1.

Good catch! Yes there is. I'm thinking that maybe NH should be +1 anyways.

maybe also eliminate the minor road between casper WY and crawford NE, to reduce the difficulty of both state bonuses.

For the capitals, are you saying Western +8 for 6 etc?

yes, basically a simple +8 for holding all of the state capitals in any of the maps of the map pack, exceptions being +16 for great lakes because of its sheer size and +8 for the capitals of the western map plus alaska and hawaii.

are u still thinking about these +8 and +16 capital bonuses, or have u finally kicked this one into the long grass? at the moment, in the absence of the superbonuses (that probably will be ignored by players if put back in), the map lacks something which binds together each map area, for example there is no bonus to tie any state to any other state that has the same colour, meaning that the bonus zones of the original usa map are now irrelevant. this bonus tries to redress that issue.

ian.

[AndyDufresne]

Though I am in the minority, think white text helps in an overall map sense, since you already have a plethora of black connecting lines all over the map. The white doesn't look great in the region of the South, however, so to go with white text you'd have to find some slightly different shades of background colors, which you probably won't want to do.

All in all, white I think would serve the map better, but in the end I suppose I'll defer.


--Andy

[isaiah40]

if u want seattle to play a bigger role as the gateway to alaska, then perhaps remove the above boat connections completely and add a blue plane beside both seattle and anchorage (to represent by far the busiest air link between the continental usa and alaska), with the wording connects anchorage with seattle.

Done with the exception of leaving the ferry icons next to Juneau and Anchorage. I have also placed a dedicated airport connection between Los Angeles and Honolulu, and placed the cross map airport on San Fransisco. This was done because I had 3 airports in the Western bonus area while the others only had 1. This will help by not making the Western area so hard to hold. Western now has 2 dedicated airports with Seattle/Anchorage and Honolulu/Los Angeles which can only attack the other corresponding airport.

rayan10154 noticed something on wm's usa: new england map that has carried over to here.

There are some mistakes on the New England map. Plattsburgh is closer to Burlington than Montpelier so those should be connected and Montpelier is closer to Berlin. I-90 is supposed to go through Worcester. And also New York City should connect to Scranton.

vermont is the wrong shape. the long western edge is supposed to follow a north-south line instead of being diagonal as at present. the road from plattsburgh to montpelier (note the spelling of both cities) is not direct, but goes through burlington. burlington is east of plattsburgh and northwest (not northeast) of montpelier.

http://www.discovernewengland.org/travel-planning/new-england-maps/

the above change also lets us reduce both vermont and new hampshire to +1.

Done with the exception of adding in the road between NYC and Scranton as it would be hard to see and make it too cluttered

maybe also eliminate the minor road between casper WY and crawford NE, to reduce the difficulty of both state bonuses.

Done, and also corrected Pittsburgh as well.

For the capitals, are you saying Western +8 for 6 etc?

yes, basically a simple +8 for holding all of the state capitals in any of the maps of the map pack, exceptions being +16 for great lakes because of its sheer size and +8 for the capitals of the western map plus alaska and hawaii.

are u still thinking about these +8 and +16 capital bonuses, or have u finally kicked this one into the long grass? at the moment, in the absence of the superbonuses (that probably will be ignored by players if put back in), the map lacks something which binds together each map area, for example there is no bonus to tie any state to any other state that has the same colour, meaning that the bonus zones of the original usa map are now irrelevant. this bonus tries to redress that issue.

ian.

This can be done, but for the Southwest area I'm thinking +7 for 6. +8 just seems like too much for there.

Changes made:
1. All of the above
2. Changed the color of the Los Angeles and Honolulu airport icons and made them connect
3. Added an airport icon to San Fransisco to connect with the other airports for cross map attacks
4. Added "Same colored airports can attack each other"

Click image to enlarge.

[iancanton]

Western now has 2 dedicated airports with Seattle/Anchorage and Honolulu/Los Angeles which can only attack the other corresponding airport.

that works nicely.

For the capitals, are you saying Western +8 for 6 etc?

yes, basically a simple +8 for holding all of the state capitals in any of the maps of the map pack, exceptions being +16 for great lakes because of its sheer size and +8 for the capitals of the western map plus alaska and hawaii.

This can be done, but for the Southwest area I'm thinking +7 for 6. +8 just seems like too much for there.

+14 for all great lakes capitals and +7 for all capitals on any other map is reasonable and simple to explain.

wyoming and nebraska need to be reduced to +3 and +2.

ian.

[nolefan5311]

Some thoughts I have after studying the map pretty hard for the past 90 minutes or so, lol.

First thing is, the airplane coloring is causing me, a slightly colorblind person, issues. Is there any way you can make them contrast each other more?

Weston, WV label sort of clashes with the borders. Can it be moved?

In the legend I think D.C. needs to list what regions assault it. As is, it looks like its just placed on top of the interstate, and not necessarily in the assault path. You might also make it border both Annapolis and Richmond.

Additionally, the Maryland bonus can probably be increased by 1.

Maybe work on the positioning of "Des Moines"? Currently it cuts off the border between Iowa and Missouri.

The border between South and North Carolina, and most of the Northern Florida border appear thicker than anywhere else on the map.

Wyoming is abnormally shaped. I know it's this way to make things fit, but its longer than it is tall, and it's the opposite on the map. Is there something that can be done about that?

Sterling, CO is covering up some border lines and is a little confusing as to which state it belongs to.

Does Barstow, CA attack Las Vegas? If so, the interstate symbol covers up that attack route...can that be repositioned?

Suggested bonus changes (in addition to Wyoming and Nebraska mentioned by ian above):
Florida needs to be reduced to a +4.
Georgia actually seems a little low with the airport connection there now.
Texas needs to be reduced to a +5
Iowa needs to be reduced by 1.
Michigan could probably be reduced by 1 as well.
Alaska at +4 is too high. It still only has 2 ways to attack in, and one of those is a killer neutral (which still needs to be indicated on the map).
Hawaii can probably be reduced to a +1 since the only way to attack in is Honolulu

[iancanton]

In the legend I think D.C. needs to list what regions assault it. As is, it looks like its just placed on top of the interstate, and not necessarily in the assault path. You might also make it border both Annapolis and Richmond.

dc currently borders baltiomore and richmond. a further connection to annapolis is logical because of its proximity.

Additionally, the Maryland bonus can probably be increased by 1.

agreed.

Wyoming is abnormally shaped. I know it's this way to make things fit, but its longer than it is tall, and it's the opposite on the map. Is there something that can be done about that?

if we remove cody, which has a population of only 9,500 and doesn't sit at an important intersection, then the name label for casper can be moved to the left, with casper's troop circle and the entire bottom half of wyoming, including the border, being moved upward.

Suggested bonus changes (in addition to Wyoming and Nebraska mentioned by ian above):
Florida needs to be reduced to a +4.
Georgia actually seems a little low with the airport connection there now.
Texas needs to be reduced to a +5
Iowa needs to be reduced by 1.
Michigan could probably be reduced by 1 as well.
Alaska at +4 is too high. It still only has 2 ways to attack in, and one of those is a killer neutral (which still needs to be indicated on the map).
Hawaii can probably be reduced to a +1 since the only way to attack in is Honolulu

agreed in both cases. in hawaii's case, i don't think it ought to have more cities than oregon, which has three times the population and is also larger in area. good catches on the other states mentioned above.

ian.

[isaiah40]

All of the suggestions mentioned by nolefan and ian have been done.

Hawaii - I have removed 2 cities and reduced it to +1

As for the borders, I'll be redoing them once Gameplay has been finalized.

Click image to enlarge.

[iancanton]

In the legend I think D.C. needs to list what regions assault it. As is, it looks like its just placed on top of the interstate, and not necessarily in the assault path. You might also make it border both Annapolis and Richmond.

dc currently borders baltimore and richmond. a further connection to annapolis is logical because of its proximity.

Wyoming is abnormally shaped. I know it's this way to make things fit, but its longer than it is tall, and it's the opposite on the map. Is there something that can be done about that?

if we remove cody, which has a population of only 9,500 and doesn't sit at an important intersection, then the name label for casper can be moved to the left, with casper's troop circle and the entire bottom half of wyoming, including the border, being moved upward.

i also suggest removing glendive (population 4,900) to reduce the number of montana's borders. perhaps put in anaheim along interstate 5 between los angeles and san diego? it's the only nhl city in california that's not represented.

a couple of spelling corrections: bismarck ND and san francisco CA.

i strongly recommend scrapping the 15 cap on reinforcements. the cap turns playing hive into such an endurance event that i simply refuse to play it. instead, maybe code everything (except dc, state capitals and some interstate cities) as start positions with underlying n1 or n2 neutrals, then set a maximum of 23 start positions per player, so that the initial deployment is 7 troops and a player has to conquer 3 enemy cities to reduce an opponent's deployment.

ian.

[sannemanrobinson]

As there are no superbonuses why stick to the common colours? Alaska could be light blue and Hawai ocean blue for example.

[isaiah40]

Did ian's suggestions.

Still need to redo the borders, but I will wait until the graphics stage to do them.

Click image to enlarge.