GeneralRisk Game Chat abuse AND forum abuse[Warned] SN

[jgordon1111]

hum first sentence was in italian...... well i am not one to say but i thought there was a rule stating all game chat must be in english ??????

From the Game Chat Guidelines:

"All diplomatic discussions MUST take place within the Game Chat in English or a language all players can understand. This includes proposing alliances and discussing the strategies of those alliances."

Lx

So in essence Lindax what you are saying, I can speak and say anything I want to another player in game chat, in a language they dont understand as long as I am not making an alliance with someone.

Example only, Chucha su madre, ek wa puta, su mama la virga de cabello con venganza, Du haben sie ein klien schwanze. Is this correct if not let me know. the above is a situational example only to see if it can be said in game chat per CC guide lines. Not intended to flame or bait anyone.

[agentcom]

hum first sentence was in italian...... well i am not one to say but i thought there was a rule stating all game chat must be in english ??????

From the Game Chat Guidelines:

"All diplomatic discussions MUST take place within the Game Chat in English or a language all players can understand. This includes proposing alliances and discussing the strategies of those alliances."

Lx

So in essence Lindax what you are saying, I can speak and say anything I want to another player in game chat, in a language they dont understand as long as I am not making an alliance with someone.

Example only, Chucha su madre, ek wa puta, su mama la virga de cabello con venganza, Du haben sie ein klien schwanze. Is this correct if not let me know. the above is a situational example only to see if it can be said in game chat per CC guide lines. Not intended to flame or bait anyone.

Quickly: There is a rule against conducting diplomatic discussions [Thanks Lx] in other languages. Any other activity in other languages (flaming, bigotry, spam, etc.) would still fall under the general rules. If no one listening understands what you are saying, then I guess you "get away" with it to an extent. But you also aren't really causing harm. If someone does understand it or translate it, you would be held to the same standards as if it had been said in English.

[jgordon1111]

hum first sentence was in italian...... well i am not one to say but i thought there was a rule stating all game chat must be in english ??????

From the Game Chat Guidelines:

"All diplomatic discussions MUST take place within the Game Chat in English or a language all players can understand. This includes proposing alliances and discussing the strategies of those alliances."

Lx

So in essence Lindax what you are saying, I can speak and say anything I want to another player in game chat, in a language they dont understand as long as I am not making an alliance with someone.

Example only, Chucha su madre, ek wa puta, su mama la virga de cabello con venganza, Du haben sie ein klien schwanze. Is this correct if not let me know. the above is a situational example only to see if it can be said in game chat per CC guide lines. Not intended to flame or bait anyone.

Quickly: There is a rule against conducting diplomatic discussions [Thanks Lx] in other languages. Any other activity in other languages (flaming, bigotry, spam, etc.) would still fall under the general rules. If no one listening understands what you are saying, then I guess you "get away" with it to an extent. But you also aren't really causing harm. If someone does understand it or translate it, you would be held to the same standards as if it had been said in English.

Thank you agent for looking and bringing that point to the table.

[agentcom]

You must have a abundance of free time on your hands. Is this the slow season at the used car lot?

I figured he'd wander in here eventually, though I was hoping not as he has contributed nothing productive to the conversation in either thread. Which reminds me, this user is the sole reason for a thread with a legitimate discussion underway being locked. That's an impressive feat. I would think that alone would be worthy of a WARNING or at least NOTED, if there is such a thing as "noting" Forum Abuse.

Good post Agent, But I am not saying retalitory baiting,trolling or flaming ia a defense for anyone. What I meant is,that it seems that GR responded to an intentional bait from gaerapi. I see no evedince that GR went into the game to intentionally bait gaerapi,ergo he did not with predetermination make any statements that were bigoted.

Thank you and likewise. And I don't see it either. Some have alleged it, GR hasn't refuted it, but the issue is not clear. In the end, I don't think it matters if that was his intent going into the game. His conduct in the game and subsequently in the forums is the issue here.

As to the third world country issue, I mention the media using the term and it is not in the context of an endearing big brother. Even our current and past presidents frequently use the term, people of all races, creeds, and nationalities use the term. Just the added F**K is what seems to make everyone view it is as bigoted. Players call each other F**Ks in game chat all the time, GR simply identified gaerapi as a third world F**K,seperatley this would have been a non issue,but he strung it together and it is causing a considerable stir.

As to calling you a first world asshole,context again, was it bigoted, only if you are looking for bigotry in a specific context and viewpoint.

The people who use the N word are being specific, because there is no context that is acceptable,not in the media,not on the street,not in the forums,not in game chat.

I do not equate The N Word, with third world, the conotations are so far apart as to not compare, Bye the Bye I dont believe Germany or Italy are considered third world by other nations, which comes back to context. gaerapi spoke in Italian,but GR thought he was German maybe, So in reality the supposed bigotry doesnt exsist by extension of correctness of the statements.

Well then we're back to lists of "good" and "bad" words. But certainly there are words that are acceptable in one context and not in another. The word "jew" is not necessarily derogatory, but "greedy jew" seems bigoted to me. The context of one additional word would for me, be evidence of bigotry. I agree that "3rd world", "German", "American" and whatever else GR said don't have a derogatory meaning standing alone. But when these terms are used as the basis for a string of insults spanning now across a game and a forum discussion (context!), it becomes obvious that this person is a bigot.

Yes a possible clarification on some of the current rules on bigotry is in order. Some things are being allowed and others are not depending on viewpoints. Its time to take viewpoints out of the equation. Clear and desicive instructions would be best,no longer using guidelines or viewpoints.

And if those clear and decisive instructions are simply "Don't say nigger or faggot", then I'm fine with that. I don't agree that both of those are necessarily worse than "cunt," but at least we'd have a rule (and a rule pretty close to what seems to be enforced). If they change the "any form of bigotry" prohibition in Game Chat to a looser standard like they have in the Forum Guidelines, I'm fine with that. It still wouldn't clear GR of the baiting/flaming/trolling violations, but at least it would reduce the things that we have to talk about here. (Don't forget, this isn't just about bigotry.) To me, the Forum Guidelines are fairly well written, but given how they are enforced they may be written more broadly than CC wanted. If they're not going to be enforced, they should be changed. Until that time, GR's actions are a violation of the Guidelines.

[jghost7]

I am in no way approving of GR's actions or statements but some of this commentary is a bit off.
You are reaching trying to make your point here. What is clear here is that GR definitely does not like Gaerapi or your very vocal and slanted position on his comments. It is also obvious that he made those statements to insult the relevant party, not as a bigoted statement but simply talking shit. You try to color his intent with your arbitrary and verbose interpretations of his statements. You clearly have an agenda and have picked this out to make it happen. While you are able to that, don't expect him to love you for it, especially when he is not a bigot.

...
Bigotry Toward Nation of Origin and Economic Status
...

When the news reports on a “3rd world country” or “Mexico” it is an informational description of a place. When I refer to someone as a “3rd world f*ck” or a “dirty Mexican,” I am probably using the nation or economic status of the person as part of a prejudiced insult against people from a certain place.

Not the same and you try to equate the two sayings by placing them together.

Again, context is important. In this case, from the context of the rest of the chat and forum posts, it is clear that GR has no problem expressing his prejudice toward people based on their national flag or their perceived economic status.

Your opinion is that he "expresses his prejudice" whilst he was just name calling. You assume he has a prejudice. You really have no other basis to make this judgement.

It was also his first line of defense against me when he perceived that I had a better education and was therefore a “first world asshole.” And it was the basis of much of his comments against Gaerapi.

This is probably the funniest statement of all. You make a silly claim that since you think you have a "better education" you were therefore a "first world asshole". Nice self esteem though. I think it is more likely to say that it has to do either with your flag or the fact that it doesn't matter which world (1st, 2nd, 3rd) you are apart of , you can still be a f*ck(or asshole).


Retaliation
...
But as to giving GR a pass because his remarks were retaliatory. In Game Chat CC does not allow “any form of bigotry” and flaming, trolling and baiting provisions (incorporated into the Game Chat Guidelines) specifically state that retaliation is NOT a defense to these claims:

No, he was talking shit to someone who he felt needed to see it. It happens all the time on CC. That is why FAMO is promoted so often.


...

Rulings and Precedent

Second point, I have seen alot worse get passed by with nothing done about it. My thoughts heat of the moment, some things were said that have pushed the limits of what is and what is not defined in the rules.

If conduct falls outside of the rules, but is still allowed to happen, there is a problem. Either the rules need to get changed or clarified or the enforcement needs to be enhanced.

FAMO

There will be an uncountable number of arguments, pissing matches, squabbles, shit talking, and other types of potential talk on the site. Someone will always find a reason to be offended. I doubt they will write a rule for every possible instance they can imagine for any part of their rules sections. It has been asked in the past and usually none or only very modest changes were added at any one time.

The definition of bigotry is:

Bigotry is the state of mind of a "bigot", a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group.

This is not shown in your selected text of GR. I assume the problem will be where to draw the line in the definition of bigotry. It is very vague when you look to see what they mean by groups.
The way you are headed, no one will be able to insult Americans, and that would ruin somebody's day....lol.

You should probably find another avenue to pursue your dream of a perfectly defined rulebook for CC. I think they try to be as vague as possible in some of their rules to allow for flexibility in handling some of the other more unique situations that occur here and also to discourage users who love to live right on the defined line.

There are other sections of the rulebook that I would like to see more clearly defined, however, holding my breath would be foolish.

I ask that both get a Fair and unbiased ruling,based on past ruling or (non-rulings).

Exactly. <----Not. You want a ruling based on your own logic and definitions.(based on reading your previous statements)

Intent and Troublemakers
...

It is unclear whether GR joined the game knowing Gaerapi’s history. He certainly knew about it by the time he made the post. He never responded to the allegation that he went into that game to bait the player. ... For the other charges, it may bolster the case for findings under specific provisions that deal with harassment or causing chaos. But I think he clearly violated the flaming/baiting/trolling guidelines anyway with his conduct. If he intentionally joined the game to do that only strengthens that case.

The simple fact is that you will never know for sure why he joined the game. What is clear is that he didn't think much of your opinion that he expressed bigotry in the game. Talking shit and other such actions will have to be judged by the C&A mods, but in my experience, these were pretty mild and the C&A mods generally give a lot of slack.



Flaming & Baiting
...
One last note: trolling and baiting are covered under the same provision of the Guidelines. Since retaliation is not a defense, responding to baiting intending to get further rise out of the initial baiter is still baiting. Same would go for Flaming.

Once again you are assuming a lot here.

...

[agentcom]

Jghost, thank you for your comments. A lot of your points are well taken. I would probably be repeating myself if I addressed all of your arguments, as I have previously done. I do want to clarify one thing:

It [using nationality as part of his insults] was also his first line of defense against me when he perceived that I had a better education and was therefore a “first world asshole.” And it was the basis of much of his comments against Gaerapi.

This is probably the funniest statement of all. You make a silly claim that since you think you have a "better education" you were therefore a "first world asshole". Nice self esteem though. I think it is more likely to say that it has to do either with your flag or the fact that it doesn't matter which world (1st, 2nd, 3rd) you are apart of , you can still be a f*ck(or asshole).

I NEVER said that I have a better education. When discussing the section of chat where Gaerapi said "niger," I commented that despite the GR's profanity and misspellings, he is right about one thing: Gaerapi demonstrated bigotry. He was the one who then made the leap that pointing out his profanity and misspellings = better education = first world asshole.

[jghost7]

Jghost, thank you for your comments. A lot of your points are well taken. I would probably be repeating myself if I addressed all of your arguments, as I have previously done. I do want to clarify one thing:

It [using nationality as part of his insults] was also his first line of defense against me when he perceived that I had a better education and was therefore a “first world asshole.” And it was the basis of much of his comments against Gaerapi.

This is probably the funniest statement of all. You make a silly claim that since you think you have a "better education" you were therefore a "first world asshole". Nice self esteem though. I think it is more likely to say that it has to do either with your flag or the fact that it doesn't matter which world (1st, 2nd, 3rd) you are apart of , you can still be a f*ck(or asshole).

I NEVER said that I have a better education. When discussing the section of chat where Gaerapi said "niger," I commented that despite the GR's profanity and misspellings, he is right about one thing: Gaerapi demonstrated bigotry. He was the one who then made the leap that pointing out his profanity and misspellings = better education = first world asshole.

You surely implied it with your statement. You also left out how nicely and uninsultingly you commented about how he was right.
Lets just briefly review:

Just in your first paragraph in response to the claim you start in on him immediately by sarcastically insulting his spelling, immediately followed by calling him a xenophobic idiot. You then continue to attack him by making up some fantastic interpretations of what he wrote and then categorizing him based on those interpretations. Don't forget this very friendly phrase from you, "Though GeneralRisk has the prose and grammar of a texting 16 year old who dropped out of 2nd grade and has had the South Park movie on repeat since that time..." No one would ever take offense to that statement right? No baiting or flaming here right? And lastly, your perceived educational level probably had nothing to do with his first world comment as it probably was just him being contrary to your opinion.

And these were just lightly skimmed from your first entry. I would just say here that you may have elicited some of these negative responses from your non biased and very friendly manner in which you have treated him.

You asked for civil conversation, but continually bait GR. Just don't act like you haven't said anything to provoke him.

Thanks,
J

[lorenzolynnlogan]

the game you are talking bout u was not n u just seem 2 be mad bout something else. the 2 n the game r joking & they where not n a game with anybody else. this seems like a witch hunt

[jgordon1111]

the game you are talking bout u was not n u just seem 2 be mad bout something else. the 2 n the game r joking & they where not n a game with anybody else. this seems like a witch hunt

You obviously are not sure of all of your facts, Before you make a post with an opinion be sure of them please.

[sniffie]

GeneralRisk is hereby warned for Flaming.

sniffie

[jgordon1111]

GeneralRisk is hereby warned for Flaming.

sniffie

Is this a done deal closed then?

Otherwise we are looking at a catch 22,double jeopardy situation. two punishments for one game. Is that possible?

[Evolution299]

GeneralRisk is hereby warned for Flaming.

sniffie

Is this a done deal closed then?

Otherwise we are looking at a catch 22,double jeopardy situation. two punishments for one game. Is that possible?

How do you figure?

GR stated in a previous thread that he joined the game to try and bait the opposing player into getting a response from him. In doing so he flamed said player while getting the response he was after.

The warning is deserved.

Move on.

[Lindax]

I'd still like to know why I can't say: "Stupid black motherfucker", but I can say: Stupid 3rd world motherfucker", or: "Stupid Canadian motherfucker".

Lx

[jgordon1111]

GeneralRisk is hereby warned for Flaming.

sniffie

Is this a done deal closed then?

Otherwise we are looking at a catch 22,double jeopardy situation. two punishments for one game. Is that possible?

How do you figure?

GR stated in a previous thread that he joined the game to try and bait the opposing player into getting a response from him. In doing so he flamed said player while getting the response he was after.

The warning is deserved.

Move on.

Evolution do you have the people that have been posting on this topic FOED. Or have you not read what has been said at all.

1. It has been determined that GR is not the one who flamed first,hard to join just to flame, when the first post made by your opponent is a flame. Ergo GR's previous statement was sarcasm.

2. No one has said that he did not deserve the warning at this point.

3.catch 22 and double jeapordy is a reference to not punishing someone twice for the same thing.

I hope this clears what is going on up to this point for you.

[John Deere]

For crying out loud.

I luv to see ThePackers get their balls ripped off and stuffed in their mouths as much as most everyone else but this complaint is frivolous

I bet you like seeing us get beat, cause everybody know your damn clan aint gonna beat us EVER!

and wasting valuable server space.

That is what every post of yours is! Grow up kid!

[Evolution299]

GeneralRisk is hereby warned for Flaming.

sniffie

Is this a done deal closed then?

Otherwise we are looking at a catch 22,double jeopardy situation. two punishments for one game. Is that possible?

How do you figure?

GR stated in a previous thread that he joined the game to try and bait the opposing player into getting a response from him. In doing so he flamed said player while getting the response he was after.

The warning is deserved.

Move on.

Evolution do you have the people that have been posting on this topic FOED. Or have you not read what has been said at all.

1. It has been determined that GR is not the one who flamed first,hard to join just to flame, when the first post made by your opponent is a flame. Ergo GR's previous statement was sarcasm.

2. No one has said that he did not deserve the warning at this point.

3.catch 22 and double jeapordy is a reference to not punishing someone twice for the same thing.

I hope this clears what is going on up to this point for you.

There is one major difference in this though. GR showed INTENT that that was the reason he was in the game. I imagine that was a determining factor in the ruling.

[Evolution299]

GeneralRisk is hereby warned for Flaming.

sniffie

Is this a done deal closed then?

Otherwise we are looking at a catch 22,double jeopardy situation. two punishments for one game. Is that possible?

How do you figure?

GR stated in a previous thread that he joined the game to try and bait the opposing player into getting a response from him. In doing so he flamed said player while getting the response he was after.

The warning is deserved.

Move on.

Evolution do you have the people that have been posting on this topic FOED. Or have you not read what has been said at all.

1. It has been determined that GR is not the one who flamed first,hard to join just to flame, when the first post made by your opponent is a flame. Ergo GR's previous statement was sarcasm.

2. No one has said that he did not deserve the warning at this point.

3.catch 22 and double jeapordy is a reference to not punishing someone twice for the same thing.

I hope this clears what is going on up to this point for you.

There is one major difference in this though. GR showed INTENT that that was the reason he was in the game. I imagine that was a determining factor in the ruling. And I dont take G78's inital comment as a flame towards GR. It looks like it basically translates into "lucky f'*cker" and was probably a comment on GR's dice rolls.

Either way, GR was in the wrong by joining the game for purpose of baiting. And he wasnt even accused of that.

Hope that clears that up for YOU.

[jgordon1111]

Is this a done deal closed then?

Otherwise we are looking at a catch 22,double jeopardy situation. two punishments for one game. Is that possible?[/quote]

How do you figure?

GR stated in a previous thread that he joined the game to try and bait the opposing player into getting a response from him. In doing so he flamed said player while getting the response he was after.

The warning is deserved.

Move on.[/quote]

Evolution do you have the people that have been posting on this topic FOED. Or have you not read what has been said at all.

1. It has been determined that GR is not the one who flamed first,hard to join just to flame, when the first post made by your opponent is a flame. Ergo GR's previous statement was sarcasm.

2. No one has said that he did not deserve the warning at this point.

3.catch 22 and double jeapordy is a reference to not punishing someone twice for the same thing.

I hope this clears what is going on up to this point for you. [/quote]

There is one major difference in this though. GR showed INTENT that that was the reason he was in the game. I imagine that was a determining factor in the ruling. And I dont take G78's inital comment as a flame towards GR. It looks like it basically translates into "lucky f'*cker" and was probably a comment on GR's dice rolls.

Either way, GR was in the wrong by joining the game for purpose of baiting. And he wasnt even accused of that.

Hope that clears that up for YOU. [/quote][/quote]

No not really,have you not realized GR's post in that thread was sarcasm when he got told that he flamed and baited gaerapi first. Are we reading the same stuff, or does one of us have a comprehension defect.

[Jdsizzleslice]

Guys... case is over... Lol. The deal is sealed...

[agentcom]

You surely implied [that you (agentcom) had a better education] with your statement. You also left out how nicely and uninsultingly you commented about how he was right.
Lets just briefly review:

Just in your first paragraph in response to the claim you start in on him immediately by sarcastically insulting his spelling, immediately followed by calling him a xenophobic idiot. You then continue to attack him by making up some fantastic interpretations of what he wrote and then categorizing him based on those interpretations. Don't forget this very friendly phrase from you, "Though GeneralRisk has the prose and grammar of a texting 16 year old who dropped out of 2nd grade and has had the South Park movie on repeat since that time..." No one would ever take offense to that statement right? No baiting or flaming here right? And lastly, your perceived educational level probably had nothing to do with his first world comment as it probably was just him being contrary to your opinion.

And these were just lightly skimmed from your first entry. I would just say here that you may have elicited some of these negative responses from your non biased and very friendly manner in which you have treated him.

You asked for civil conversation, but continually bait GR. Just don't act like you haven't said anything to provoke him.

Thanks,
J

Hey Jghost,

I don't agree that xenophobic idiot is all that bad. I do agree that my "texting 16 y.o (etc.)" comment was the least ... ummm ... professional/respectful ... I don't know what the right word there is. I was making a different point there: No matter what you think about GR, gaerapi's game chat was bigotry. That could have been worded better. Keep in mind that this was one sentence in some rather lengthy posts. Maybe I slipped up here, but I don't think that I've been baiting or flaming him. In fact, I'd rather he just stayed away, since his posts haven't added anything to the conversation. I wouldn't do anything to try to get him to say more given the manner in which he chose to respond.

GeneralRisk is hereby warned for Flaming.

sniffie

I think this is the clearest case there was as GR managed to get an entire thread shut down by himself in about 3 posts. That's got to be some kind of record. Everyone else was having a conversation similar to the one here. There's also the issue about whether he joined the game with the intent to bait/flame, but that hasn't been either clearly shown nor refuted.

But I do still wonder about:

I'd still like to know why I can't say: "Stupid black motherfucker", but I can say: Stupid 3rd world motherfucker", or: "Stupid Canadian motherfucker".

Lx

Seems like not addressing the bigotry issue was a little bit of an "easy way out" for the C&A team here. I think they generally do a good job, but the bigotry issue in Game Chat is one that I think needs some more thought. Jghost is right when he says I have an "agenda" of sorts. It's certainly not a hidden one: I want to know what the rules are in this department. The Game Chat Guidelines say "any form of bigotry" will be punished. But instead is it just the same standards as the Forum Guidelines for bigotry that are enforced? If so, say so.

Again, I can definitely see the argument for the game chat being held to a higher standard, as there's not really a way to avoid game chat. You see it if you play the game.

If I had to guess from what I've seen of bigotry rulings, I'd summarize them as this:

Players are held to the same bigotry standards in games and forum (even though the rules indicate otherwise). If you use one of the "bad words" you will be punished. The bad words include at least "fag", "nigger" and their derivatives but not much else. If you otherwise demonstrate bigotry, you probably won't be punished unless you do something else that basically amounts to flaming/baiting/trolling. That's the best that I can sum it up.

Thanks everyone for the input here.

Guys... case is over... Lol. The deal is sealed...

Yes it is. That doesn't mean we can't continue to talk about it, as long as everyone keeps it civil. Though the mods may lock us out if they think it has carried over too long after the case has closed. I don't know what their protocol on that is.

[General Brock II]

To be true, GeneralRisk has quite the mouth and attitude - it was just a matter of time until he was reported. I would have done the same thing, eventually, no doubt, if agentcom hadn't. Nothing against PACK, because I like JD and Ollie and get along with them well...

Edited as I phrased the original poorly.

[GeneralRisk]

To be true, GeneralRisk has quite the mouth and attitude - it was just a matter of time until he was reported. I would do the same thing, if agentcom hadn't. Nothing against PACK, because I like JD and Ollie and get along with them well... But Risk is a piece of work.

I checked our games and dont see any bad words exchanged between us. I know that you have never won a game against me and it could be your reason to come in here and flame me. Please do not join as my partner in any more games. I want your points so I dont want to foe you. Why in the world you have to bring the Pack and 2 of its leaders into this discussion is beyond me. Mods please lock this thread.

[mviola]

For crying out loud.

I luv to see ThePackers get their balls ripped off and stuffed in their mouths as much as most everyone else but this complaint is frivolous

I bet you like seeing us get beat, cause everybody know your damn clan aint gonna beat us EVER!

and wasting valuable server space.

That is what every post of yours is! Grow up kid!

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point, eh? I'm pretty sure he was agreeing with the Pack...

GOD FORBID YOU AGREE WITH JEFJEF

To be true, GeneralRisk has quite the mouth and attitude - it was just a matter of time until he was reported. I would do the same thing, if agentcom hadn't. Nothing against PACK, because I like JD and Ollie and get along with them well... But Risk is a piece of work.

I checked our games and dont see any bad words exchanged between us. I know that you have never won a game against me and it could be your reason to come in here and flame me. Please do not join as my partner in any more games. I want your points so I dont want to foe you. Why in the world you have to bring the Pack and 2 of its leaders into this discussion is beyond me. Mods please lock this thread.

So is The Pack's collective IQ about 35? These last two posts tell me yes.

[drisk]

3 games with this asshole, wont be a 4th

[drisk]

Enough players foe him that will accomplish what the enablers wont do.